Should Christians STRONGLY support the 2ND AMENDMENT?

[Hope of Glory]

I was going to comment on what a militia was in their day, but Ray Marshall beat me to it.

BTW, I believe in a separation of church and state as well, but not the way "separation" is forced on people today.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by RayMarshall19:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
Ray,

I would like to learn more. Can you document the thought that the founding fathers favoured an armed populace and a Christian govenment please?

Thomas Jefferson:"No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselvs against tyranny in government."

Alexander Hamilton: "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all forms of positive government."

Tench Coxe: "Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldieir, are the birth-right of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." (Note the contrast between militia and governments.)

Noah Webster: "The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed, and constiture a force superior to any band of regular troops."

George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence."

And, if you still have doubts about what was meant in the constitution by "militia". .George Mason: "Who are the militia? They consist of the whole people, except a few public officers."

Dear C4K:

This should make it clear that when the founding fathers referred to the militia they were talking about the armed citizens, not the government military. The purpose of the militia is to protect the citizens from the government.

Now, would that be possible today? I don't know. But that doesn't change the founding fathers' original intent. If we no longer like this idea and want to change it there is a process by which the Constitution can be amended. In the meantime, people should quit lying about the original intent.

The same is true for the First Amendment. The founding fathers intended for this to be a fully Christian nation. The "separation clause" was intended to simply prohibit a state religion, not to keep Christianity out of government. For a better treatment of the "myth" of the separation of church and state you could go to www.wallbuilders.com </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the input on firearms. I found that enlightening.

I disagree on the "Christian nation" claim, but that is not the topic of this thread .

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by C4K:
Does anyone have any Biblical support for fighting off the Feds with guns and killing them?

You mean like Religious Liberty and Soul Freedom which are old Baptist Values that we picked up from reading the Bible?

You mean like all the Baptists who prayed with their pastors about their involvement in the Revolutionary War against England and the King?

 

[superdave]

I think Baptists should support the 2nd amendment just as strongly as we support the rest of the Bill of Rights. They were put in there for a reason. The 2nd Amendment was not there for hunters, or personal protection, or the milita. It was put there as a deterrent to the Federal Government. It was put there to make the possibility of armed revolt in the minds of those who were elected to make policies that affected the people. It was there so the U.S. government would not be tempted to disarm the public to enforce their will, but would be forced to be a representative government, and to represent their constituents.

Still would be effective today, but most of the stuffed shirts in government today have forgotten that they aren't monarchs, and those who go there as real people with ideals are quickly swallowed by the system. According to Jefferson, we are about due for an armed revolt. Don't think the Baptists need to start one yet, but it might be a good idea to keep the ability should it become necessary.

 

[RayMarshall19]

Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RayMarshall19:

Originally posted by C4K:
[qb] Ray,


The same is true for the First Amendment. The founding fathers intended for this to be a fully Christian nation. The "separation clause" was intended to simply prohibit a state religion, not to keep Christianity out of government. For a better treatment of the "myth" of the separation of church and state you could go to www.wallbuilders.com

Thanks for the input on firearms. I found that enlightening.

I disagree on the "Christian nation" claim, but that is not the topic of this thread . </font>

You need to do some research. Where are you from, anyway?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
Does anyone have any Biblical support for fighting off the Feds with guns and killing them?

You mean like Religious Liberty and Soul Freedom which are old Baptist Values that we picked up from reading the Bible?

You mean like all the Baptists who prayed with their pastors about their involvement in the Revolutionary War against England and the King? </font>[/QUOTE]Religious liberty and soul freedom have absolutely nothing to do with owning a gun. Paul had religious freedom in jail.

 

[EdSutton]

As an American citizen and a Christian, I support all the Constitution, and find it acceptable, as a Christian. As both a Christian and an American, I find some 'rulings' far less acceptable. I have recently found these fora, read several threads, and found something interesting, to say the least. Just recently read one thread centered on 'Communion'; it had fewer than five responses. Now I'm reading one that touches on 'keep and bear arms'; (BTW, I have two, easy access to severa more, and soon intend to acquire a couple more, myself.) this thread has almost 250 responses.
Communion- 5
Packing Heat- 250
Does this ratio here seem slightly off kilter, or is it just me?
Ed

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by RayMarshall19:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RayMarshall19:

Originally posted by C4K:
[qb] Ray,


The same is true for the First Amendment. The founding fathers intended for this to be a fully Christian nation. The "separation clause" was intended to simply prohibit a state religion, not to keep Christianity out of government. For a better treatment of the "myth" of the separation of church and state you could go to www.wallbuilders.com

Thanks for the input on firearms. I found that enlightening.

I disagree on the "Christian nation" claim, but that is not the topic of this thread . </font>

You need to do some research. Where are you from, anyway? </font>[/QUOTE]Done LOADS of research, and have come to a very definite conclusion. Not that is is germaine to the discusion at hand, but I am from Alabama, BTW - but the "Christian nation" is not the topic of this thread. Perhaps we can rehash that issue elsewhere?

I do appareciate the founders comments on weapons though.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Because of a felony I was convicted of in my late teens, I had all rights to own a firearm taken away.

I have no need for a firearm though, for what would a blind man do with a gun? Probably shoot my toe off.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by jmcneely01:


Hating others, and fighting those who persecute you is contrary to our example left by our Lord. But protecting our own lives is a different matter altogether. Eventually, conservatives will lose this battle, and I hope I'm not around to see what happens when it is lost.

---Justin

I think this sums up the argument quite nicely. Carrying guns and killing others is contrary to the example left by our Lord. BUT, we should do it anyway.

 

[austinthebaptist]

Maybe Christians should carry tasers, or support tranqilizer rifles and pepper spray. Maybe we could even hire body guards or trained killer dogs with spiked collars and scripture references on their dog tags. Set up massive security systems on our property and set up double locks on our doors, build fall out shelters stocked with healthy soft foods, but make sure you have an on line connection for the computer?!
austin&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[DeadMan]

I've owned firerms since my grandpa gave me my first .22 at age 13. (OK, I did get a Red Ryder @ age 8!) They will have to pry my cold dead fingers off mine if they want them!

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
Does anyone have any Biblical support for fighting off the Feds with guns and killing them?

You mean like Religious Liberty and Soul Freedom which are old Baptist Values that we picked up from reading the Bible?

You mean like all the Baptists who prayed with their pastors about their involvement in the Revolutionary War against England and the King? </font>[/QUOTE]Now that you mention it.....is rebellion against one's king biblical?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

One can rebel against their king, president, or specific eathly ruler only if that ruler is handing down laws to be enforced which are against the Word of God.

Romans 13 we are told to obey those that have rule over us.
Acts 5:29 ...We ought to obey God rather than man

If man's laws and edicts are against God's Word, then we are to ignore the manmade laws.

 

[Hope of Glory]

OK, how about this conundrum: The US Constitution gives citizens the right to ignore unconstitutional laws. So, if a law is passed that violates the other one, which one do we rebel against? You have to either rebel against the very foundation of our government, or against the temporary figurehead in such a case.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
The US Constitution gives citizens the right to ignore unconstitutional laws.

Where does it do that?

 

[EdSutton]

Anybody seen my .357? It's almost church time and I got my Bible, but can't sem to find my...
Ed

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
One can rebel against their king, president, or specific eathly ruler only if that ruler is handing down laws to be enforced which are against the Word of God.

Romans 13 we are told to obey those that have rule over us.
Acts 5:29 ...We ought to obey God rather than man

If man's laws and edicts are against God's Word, then we are to ignore the manmade laws. [/QUOTE/]---------------end quote


Acts 5:29 is about the apostles not obeying the religious authorities; in this case, they were not disobeying the civil gov't. Also, disobedience is not quite the same as open rebellion.

When the colonies split from England, it was open rebellion.

What law from the King of England commanded men to violate God's will? Where in the bible does it substantiate rebellion against the government?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Funny, I find the words 'Fear Not' in my Bible but can't find 'Shoot anything that moves'.

Why do we need guns?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I have to agree with that SFIC