SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Do you believe in Direct Creation by YHWH
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Should every Christian be a young Earth creationist?
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
- Start date
Do you believe in Direct Creation by YHWH
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Rashi's Commentary:
....[if you say that Scripture indicates the order of creation] be astounded at yourself, for the water preceded, as it is written: “and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water,” and Scripture did not yet disclose when the creation of water took place! From this you learn that the water preceded the earth. Moreover, the heavens were created from fire and water. Perforce, you must admit that Scripture did not teach us anything about the sequence of the earlier and the later [acts of creation]. Bereshit - Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Bereshit)
Perhaps you should read what I said, I am not concerned with the various views as you seem to be. I have no problem trusting what the scriptures show and understanding what they do not.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As I said in Post # 85
I have not really concerned myself about it {YE,OE or Gap} as the bible tells me that God created what we have from nothing and I believe it.
You want to believe YE that is your option others will believe OE or even Gap and they all say the bible proves it.
As I said I am not concerned with those speculations.
I have not presented a gap or a OE or a YE, whatever that is, and I am not claiming any of them are mine. I am simply believing the words that describe creation that God gave to Moses, who wrote them 2500 years later. You are the one who says they are ambiguous at best and cannot be believed. And you haven't explained how your approach is trusting in God if you are not trusting his words..
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Thanks for clarifying your position
37818
Well-Known Member
So you misinterpreted.
Time will tell.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If you have read what I posted how do you come to the conclusion that I think the words of God can not be believed?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
God did it that is all I have to know.
What I know for sure is that God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1
We also know that it was formless and void. Gen 1:2
Then we know that God said let there be light. Gen 1:3
And now we see the the phrase "there was evening, and there was morning" Gen 1:5
If you have not guessed by now I will be clear. I am not concerned with Young Earth, Old Earth or the Gap theory of creation.
SBG started this thread with the question
Should every Christian be a young Earth creationist?
I have asked him to provide clear text too prove his conjecture. He has not done so.
Now you say I am not trusting God yet you do not give an example of such.
37818
Well-Known Member
2 Peter 3:8, But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
John 6:44.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Reread my posts on this thread
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I just read through them again. You have your theory but you still have not proven your case. That is why we have people that hold to various theories.
None of us were there so the various views will continue to be around.
While it is interesting to read the various views I do not put much stock in any of them.
I agree with what @Deacon posted earlier from the Logos web site.
Christians should engage those with different views on the age of the earth and related questions charitably and patiently. Sincere Christians have come to different conclusions, since tensions exist for each perspective. Christians should also make every effort not to caricature alternative views. God shows us abundant grace, even if our scientific and theological ideas are imperfect.
We can discuss various views but we should not divide over them.
Your mismatch of out-of-context allusions to the biblical text (twisting 1 Corinthians 1:21, 1 Corinthians 3:18-19; and 2 Corinthians 5:7) demonstrates your lack of respect for the scripture (or at least, lack of ability to interpret scripture).
You also insinuate that God is a great deceiver, Who does not want us to use our minds, senses, and intellect to know anything. That's in direct contradiction to the command to love God with our minds (Matthew 22:27; Mark 12:30; and Luke 10:27) and what Paul plainly taught about natural revelation (Romans 1:20). Remember, the Jewish faith is built upon experiences with God by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc. And the Christian faith is built upon the witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. All of these persons LITERALLY reached their conclusions by sight and the rest of their senses. You want to dismiss all of that when it is convenient for your argument.
And, of course, you did not even attempt to engage the issues I raised. The reason why is that you have to be careful not to upset the "house of cards" belief system that you have. I'm sure that if your view of the age of the earth changed, your entire belief system would fall. If your belief system is based upon Christ, you will be just fine, but you might lose your judgmental friends and, potentially, your faith community if they demand young earth creationism.
The bible clearly teaches a young earth. The only reason a true Christian does not believe what is written is because of a lack of faith. That is not an insult. It is simply fact. No one has ever picked up the Bible for the first time and read the Gen. account and walked away believing that the bible teaches long periods of time for creation.
Where does the "parable" in Genesis end and actual time begin in your estimation? Is it silly to believe Adam really lived 930 years and then died? How likely is the account an actual event that Jehovah and Cain had conversations at an altar that displeased Cain to the point that he killed his brother Abel? And what about that snake in the garden of Eden, I am guessing you do not believe that it could speak and converse with a woman who was specially created from the rib of a man. And what about that boat and Noah and his 7 family members being saved from a worldwide flood that destroyed every living thing that breathed air on the earth. I am guessing you don't believe that either. There are a lot of strange things for us to doubt and not believe today after the passing of time and transitions in God's ways of dealing with man.
Ps 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Do you think God in his omniscience and omnipresence still sees all that in his present tense?
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37818
Well-Known Member
Well, if you are a man who has decided all the evidence points to the ESV, or maybe the NASB, or possibly the Good News for Modern man being the words of God, you should believe them and preach them, do your Bible study from them and memorize them and even defend them. But please don't think people are dumb enough to believe you when you say to them that you believe God created the heaven (or in your case just the earth) in six literal days, that he scraped up some dust from the earth he had just made and created a man and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, made a woman from his rib, see and detail future events thousands of years before they happen, and is even able to raise the dead but he cannot be trusted to preserve his words in any of those scores of Bibles he has put out on the market for men to buy and to trust their eternal souls to in spite of the fact that he invested himself in his incarnation and to bleed and suffer for every man but making the way of salvation so narrow, through one single man. that one must get it right to finally be saved.
If you cannot believe one word how can you believe another?
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37818
Well-Known Member
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You are not a good listener. I am in favor of using the KJV, but am an anti-KJVonlyist. I believe in the literal 6 days of Genesis 1:3-31, and in an old universe.
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I do not claim that there are parables in Genesis. I realize that the use of quotes is an attempt to communicate a word that means non-literal.
If by, “actual time,” you mean a more literal narrative, then I would suggest that Genesis 12:1 is the beginning point of a narrative that conforms more closely to Western expectations.
What follows is the part of your response that attempts to portray me as a scoffer or unbeliever because you don’t want to deal with what I have previously written:
No. I don’t have any issues with that possibility. The question is whether or not what is written is intended to be taken literally. My understanding of the scripture, after years of reading it and previously holding much more literal interpretations, leads me to believe it was not intended to be taken as literal.
It could easily happen. The question is whether or not what is written is intended to be taken literally.
You guess wrong (again). The question is whether or not what is written is intended to be taken literally.
“Rib” is probably not a great translation. “Side” is likely the better translation of miṣ·ṣal·’ō·ṯāw.
Contrary to your hostile viewpoint toward my faith, I don’t have any issues with the concept. But your assertion that LITERALLY every living thing on the earth (beyond Noah’s family) was destroyed probably doesn’t work with the scriptural evidence. Remember that Genesis 6:1-4 cited the Nephilim as the metaphorical last straw before God decided to purify the corrupted earth. However, the Nephilim are still around in Numbers 13:33. Why weren't they literally destroyed?
I take that as one of many signs that the early chapters of Genesis is not intended to be interpreted literally. Other indications include the fact that other people seem to exist outside of Adam’s family, including Cain’s wife and those Cain worried might kill him (Genesis 4:14-17) — yes, I know all about the theory that these are actually all numerous unnamed brothers and sisters of Cain and Abel, but that seems to be stretching credibility to make things fit a preconceived framework. Added to that, the two “creation narratives” of Genesis 1-2:3 and Genesis 2:4-25 have a different order that doesn’t really work if you take them literally. Genesis 1-2:3 is a ‘temple building’ narrative where God “rests” (aka, ‘takes up residence’) in His creation, while Genesis 2:4-25 is a narrative regarding the purpose of humankind, the responsibilities of free will, and the nature of the relationship between men and women.
It is quite strange to me that people who don’t share my understanding of scripture automatically assume I come to scripture from a place of doubt or unbelief. I think you are reading your own experience into mine. I have found that many of the people who are most resolute about a literal six-24-hour-day creation narrative are always on the edge of losing their faith. They are afraid to consider other viewpoints since they have been told that if they can't "believe" the story in the first chapters of the Bible, there is no way they can have true saving faith in Jesus. And since their theology does not have a good way of determining whether or not they are truly in the faith (despite plain ways to know shown in the gospels and 1 John), they are terrified of eternal hell fire if they don't hold to young earth creationism.
Thank being said, that may not describe you, but I have known more than a few like that.
I don’t understand your question. Do you somehow think I don’t believe God made the heavens and the earth? That would be foolish, since Genesis 1:1 clearly states He did.
I believe, what about you? Why don't you thoughtfully deal with the content of what I previously wrote instead of trying to cast me as some sort of sniveling doubter? That's what people who are bold in faith would do.
Any man or woman who entrusts his or her soul to a Bible is an idolator and will be lost. The Bible, even the AKJV, does not save.
Jesus said, "You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)
Here's that place where you demonstrate what I wrote in my previous post about a faith so weak it is like a house of cards. To quote the previous post:
I have found that many of the people who are most resolute about a literal six-24-hour-day creation narrative are always on the edge of losing their faith. They are afraid to consider other viewpoints since they have been told that if they can't "believe" the story in the first chapters of the Bible, there is no way they can have true saving faith in Jesus. And since their theology does not have a good way of determining whether or not they are truly in the faith (despite plain ways to know shown in the gospels and 1 John), they are terrified of eternal hell fire if they don't hold to young earth creationism.
It is very sad that your faith is so weak where (1) you cannot reconsider any beliefs, and (2) you have to cast everyone who understands the scripture differently as an unbeliever, a faithless person. That type of "faith" bears NO semblance to the teachings and practice of Jesus, nor the vibrant Christian life of the New Testament.