-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Should God have compassion?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Wonderful. Please post a link to the number of times in this 18 page thread that you actually QUOTE the LIST that God gives and then SHOW how IT not only provides objective and "expected" REASONS for why God SHOULD have MERCY on Nineveh but that the LIST IT gives is also predicted by Calvinism!!
(You know - the TWO point in the OP)!!
How wonderful for you - that means you would be posting Jonah 4 on this THREAD ABOUT JONAH 4 - as much as I have been doing - and gleefully pointing out how the LIST is making YOUR case not mine.
Please show the LINKS to those many many references to the LIST of Jonah 4 EXPLICITLY highlhighted by you as I repeatedly post the EXACT text of Jonah 4 in my posts on almost every page.
Seeing is "believing" Tom.
And that is to be commended. The fact that your beliefs "just so happen" to coincide with a very well known version of Calvinism should be "ignored" I suppose.
In any case your claim to fully accept Chapter 4 "should" see you happy to EXPLORE THE LIST and RESPOND to my DIRECT points made FROM The LIST that GOD GIVES in Jonah 4 since you claim to embrace the text so fully.
So far -- how far back do we have to go in this thread to see you embracing the actual QUOTE of Jonah 4, the LIST and responding to the many pointed posts about how the LIST DOES NOT fit your views?
I don't think you will find even one of my posts on this thread saying any of that.
What I DO say is that those who IGNORE the text of Jonah 4 -- BUT CLAIM to be accepting it - are not being forthright - they are simply "Gaming" around a difficult point.
My argument is that the gamesmanship being played here by those who are discomforted by the "details" of Jonah 4 can be "seen" because in their every post they give only one of TWO kinds of responses.
#1. They complain that they are being exposed.
#2. They write what they WISH had been written in Jonah 4 and NOT the text of Jonah 4 ITSELF. Avoiding all the "inconvenient DETAILS" of Jonah 4 AND the pointed questions given here about those DETAILS not fitting Calvinism!
My point has been that this is so blatantly and glaringly obvious that even the most casual objective reader can see the Calvinists "Gaming" in a kind of "anything for Calvinism" model.
My focus on this -- is very objective. My position is that GIVEN a weakness - GIVEN a text that does NOT fit one's doctrinal model -- very wild and extreme twists and turns will be seen as defense mechanisms "posted" while every pretense of actual exegesis is fully abandoned by those stuck on that point of weakness.
I don't claim that Calvinists are any more or less "frail humans" than Arminians - just that they take a position that is "exposed" to more weaknesses when contrasted with scripture.
In Christ,
Bob
Bob says, #1. They complain that they are being exposed.
Quite to the contrary Bob. I am convinced in my beliefs and have no problem having others see them.
Then Bob said, #2. They write what they WISH had been written in Jonah 4 and NOT the text of Jonah 4 ITSELF. Avoiding all the "inconvenient DETAILS" of Jonah 4 AND the pointed questions given here about those DETAILS not fitting Calvinism!
I see nothing in Jonah 4 that makes any point against my beliefs. Your claim that it does... does not make any sense to me.
Here is a verse that disproves arminian theology beyond a shadow of doubt.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? KJV
It disproves arminian theology in that.... there was nothing that the people did, no choice they made, no plea, no faith, no acknowledgement..... just the fact there were a lot of them and they were dumb, and had a lot of animals.... They did not chose God, God chose them..... and set his affection on them just because He is God and for no other reason.....
Quite to the contrary Bob. I am convinced in my beliefs and have no problem having others see them.
Then Bob said, #2. They write what they WISH had been written in Jonah 4 and NOT the text of Jonah 4 ITSELF. Avoiding all the "inconvenient DETAILS" of Jonah 4 AND the pointed questions given here about those DETAILS not fitting Calvinism!
I see nothing in Jonah 4 that makes any point against my beliefs. Your claim that it does... does not make any sense to me.
Here is a verse that disproves arminian theology beyond a shadow of doubt.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? KJV
It disproves arminian theology in that.... there was nothing that the people did, no choice they made, no plea, no faith, no acknowledgement..... just the fact there were a lot of them and they were dumb, and had a lot of animals.... They did not chose God, God chose them..... and set his affection on them just because He is God and for no other reason.....
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tom - I am not convinced that your avoidance of the text of Jonah 4 (as is seen in your last 10 posts) is the same as the avoidance of all other Calvinists.
I am simply pointing to the complaints on this thread - not all of which are yours. In fact very few of them (by comparison in numbers) are yours.
In any case see how many times I quote Jonah 4 (which IS the subject of this entire thread), how many times I complain that nobody else will bring themselves to address this part of the Word of God - and how many times in your last post that YOU quote the list God gives in chapter 4 (that number is zero by the way).
"Do You start to see a pattern"??
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This can be seen in the posts here where they talk about Romans 9 INSTEAD of the "DETAILS IN" Jonah 4.
In fact you have claimed that you like this part of God's Word - yet each time I point out that you are not actually quoting from it -- continue to avoid the chapter. See your last ten posts.
In Christ,
Bob
To Miss Bob Ryan. 
Your dad is not the final authority but love him anyway such as he is. Such as we all are.
But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?" ..." He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." Eli said that. 1 Sam 3:18. It is the answer we should all have on our lips and no other but, "We could wish." Is for us.
JNH 4:10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.
The Lord gives and takes away Job 1:21.
But then the point of this is this, JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
Even if we were innocent it would make no difference. One for the old man's pipe old chapess. A good smoke that.
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Even if we were innocent still we need mercy for His choice was not based on innocence or guilt but He is awesome.
john.
Your dad is not the final authority but love him anyway such as he is.
Such as we all are.But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?" ..." He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." Eli said that. 1 Sam 3:18. It is the answer we should all have on our lips and no other but, "We could wish." Is for us.
JNH 4:10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.
The Lord gives and takes away Job 1:21.
But then the point of this is this, JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
Even if we were innocent it would make no difference.
One for the old man's pipe old chapess. A good smoke that.Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Even if we were innocent still we need mercy for His choice was not based on innocence or guilt but He is awesome.
john.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tbe Arminian view does not say "And mankind repented SO GOD so Loved the World that He sent His son after seeing that repentance". If you have such a text - show it.
In fact what Arminians say is that God DOES see a World of lost ignorant dying humans and this IS reason enough for Him to SO LOVE the World and to have mercy on us and to send His son.
How in the world could you miss that?
But notice that after you point to the list God gives in Jonah 4 as REASONS for showing mercy (and even claiming that these REASONS are not the REASONS of Arminianism) you then flip flop BACK to Calvinism claiming that there are NO REASONS given - just God arbitrarily deciding to have mercy
How can you do that with a straight face?
Do you lose context and focus on what you have just said so quickly?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
He JohnP is back!!Originally posted by johnp.:
To Miss Bob Ryan.
Your dad is not the final authority but love him anyway such as he is.
So what say you JohnP ARE the number of animals and the ignorance of the people really objective reasons why GOD SHOULD have mercy??
Is this really a Question for God to ask Jonah as if Jonah should be able to see that THE NUMBER of people, their ignorance AND the number of animals ARE in fact compelling REASONS for why God SHOULD be having mercy on the wicked??
If you are willing (as you pretend to be here) then WHY IN THE WORLD do you not show this IN CALVINISM??
Wouldn't you MUCH RATHER read that there is NO reason why God should have mercy - just let Him do whatever He wants on that particular day?
You know - don't you wish that INSTEAD of Jonah 4:11 you had read
..." He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." Eli said that. 1 Sam 3:18.
[/quote]
Isn't THAT what should have been written there in Jonah 4 INSTEAD of what is listed there as REASONS??
so that when we read Jonah 4 we just think 1Sam3 "anyway:?"
How about the "other" of Jonah 4:11??
His choice to have mercy was influenced by the NUMBER of people, their ignorance and the number of animals JohnP -- weren't you just "ok with that" a few lines ago?
In Christ,
Bob
That is a grimace Bob boy.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Jonah was used by God as a drawing to Christ. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44. Be told.
No one would of course include Ninevah.
john.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom said --
Here is a verse that disproves arminian theology beyond a shadow of doubt.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? KJV
It disproves arminian theology in that.... there was nothing that the people did, no choice they made, no plea, no faith, no acknowledgement..... just the fact there were a lot of them and they were dumb, and had a lot of animals....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom said --
They did not chose God, God chose them..... and set his affection on them just because He is God and for no other reason.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So first Tom LISTs the REASONS God gives in 4:11 THEN He flip flops to claim NO REASONS given -- just "because He IS God and for N
THER resons" as if he WISHED that had been written in 4:11 INSTEAD of all that Tom already listed and admitted to have seen in the text.
So Bob responds
How can you do that with a straight face?
At which point JohnP jumps in -- clueless.
What a hoot!
In Christ,
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom said --
Here is a verse that disproves arminian theology beyond a shadow of doubt.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? KJV
It disproves arminian theology in that.... there was nothing that the people did, no choice they made, no plea, no faith, no acknowledgement..... just the fact there were a lot of them and they were dumb, and had a lot of animals....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom said --
They did not chose God, God chose them..... and set his affection on them just because He is God and for no other reason.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So first Tom LISTs the REASONS God gives in 4:11 THEN He flip flops to claim NO REASONS given -- just "because He IS God and for N
THER resons" as if he WISHED that had been written in 4:11 INSTEAD of all that Tom already listed and admitted to have seen in the text.So Bob responds
How can you do that with a straight face?
At which point JohnP jumps in -- clueless.
What a hoot!
In Christ,
Bob
You Yanks are not all bad with the old English pal. Some of your people would believe mercy and reasons do not go together but like chalk and cheese or love and marriage.
But you have trouble with all the most important words like the rest of Arminia. Love fails with you and redeemed means not so sure and atonement is given to the Gentiles? It's a Jew thing don't you know? And many words you have a strangeway. You corrupt the meaning of everlasting love and refuse scripture.If you think I'm going to get involved with this thread you have another think coming. As I said a month ago, "It's like being married."
Just thought I'd throw what weight I had, to give the others a day off. You are not the only one into attrition. God's people can talk the hind legs off a donkey and then convince it to get up and walk away. Your cut'n'paste' theology is meaningless as most of it is waffle and hot air and bluster buster. As I said, you have trouble with English. How can mercy have anything to do with anything? I wonder at your blindness I really am amazed.
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
I don't answer your questions bully boy Bob until you answer my four questions. Even if we were innocent we would still need mercy, comprehend. It does not make any difference, innocent or guilty, it is God that has mercy. If you are innocent you can still go to Hell Bob. As it is written, "Jacob I loved Esau I hated before they had done a thing." Get it.
john.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
JohnP admits (finally) to the reasons GOD GIVES IN Jonah 4:11 as to WHY He SHOULD have mercy on Nineveh (these are not reasons why God SHOULD NOT have mercy -- obviously)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John P said --
His choice was not based on innocence or guilt but He is awesome.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His choice to have mercy was influenced by the NUMBER of people, their ignorance and the number of animals JohnP -- weren't you just "ok with that" a few lines ago?
In Christ,
Bob
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John P said --
His choice was not based on innocence or guilt but He is awesome.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His choice to have mercy was influenced by the NUMBER of people, their ignorance and the number of animals JohnP -- weren't you just "ok with that" a few lines ago?
At which point JohnP is clueless --
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by johnp.:
The Lord has mercy on who He wants and to Hell with the rest for His glory and our deeper reverance.
john.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in your efforts to "believe you anyway" no matter what the text says --
Is that your way above - of saying God SHOULD have mercy because of the number of people, their ignorance AND THE NUMBER OF ANIMALS??
You know "the details" of Jonah 4:11
In Christ,
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by johnp.:
The Lord has mercy on who He wants and to Hell with the rest for His glory and our deeper reverance.
john.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in your efforts to "believe you anyway" no matter what the text says --
Is that your way above - of saying God SHOULD have mercy because of the number of people, their ignorance AND THE NUMBER OF ANIMALS??
You know "the details" of Jonah 4:11
In Christ,
Bob