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Should God have compassion?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I "changed nothing" - I quoted Jonah 4 "exactly" AND THEN asked a question.
If you have a way out of that - please show it.
So far you are simply observing that my question was MY WORDs -- and the quote was "a quote".
This is not "substantive".
God asks Jonah if he should have mercy as in Abraham asking God "SHALL NOT the judge of all the earth do right?" Gen 18:25. The "game ends" with playing around on that question God asks to Jonah.
The point is that HE ASKS about what SHOULD be and then GIVES evidence for His decision. Objective external facts rather than arbitrary "Selection" on "whim".
So what is your answer.
Was it really a "calvinist" model?
I don't believe God is obligated to save anyone outside of His requirements for salvation. If God put's the requirements for salvation out there, and tells us we will be saved if we follow them, God IS obligated to save those people. If He didn't, He would be a liar and not God.
If I told you that if you followed me around my city for a day, and in return I promise to give you $1000, am I obligated to give you the money if you fulfil your end of the requirement? God put the requirements for salvation plain as day, and if we accept them, He will fulfil His end of the deal. If we don't, He won't.
If I told you that if you followed me around my city for a day, and in return I promise to give you $1000, am I obligated to give you the money if you fulfil your end of the requirement? God put the requirements for salvation plain as day, and if we accept them, He will fulfil His end of the deal. If we don't, He won't.
As to God's obligation to save Nineveh, if He told Jonah to preach that if they turn from wickedness He will spare them, and they did, God is obligated to fulfil His end or He would be a liar. Notice their safety was contingent on them turning from wickedness. They were destroyed at a future date for not keeping their end of the deal.
Actually Jonah did not preach Repentance to Ninevah. It was a message of Judgment BUT the fear of God led them to Repentance and to rest on His Grace.
I think in all of this we see that the Ninevites,
1. BELIEVED THE WORD OF GOD - That Ninevah would be destroyed
2.THEY REPENTED - Though they were not told to in Jonah’s sermon, the fear of God brought forth repentance in their hearts.
2 Tim. 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
3. THEY RESTED ON THE GRACE OF GOD
Jonah's message offered no grace, no mercy but the Ninevites through the conviction of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God rested on the Grace of God.
I think in all of this we see that the Ninevites,
1. BELIEVED THE WORD OF GOD - That Ninevah would be destroyed
2.THEY REPENTED - Though they were not told to in Jonah’s sermon, the fear of God brought forth repentance in their hearts.
2 Tim. 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
3. THEY RESTED ON THE GRACE OF GOD
Jonah's message offered no grace, no mercy but the Ninevites through the conviction of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God rested on the Grace of God.
So He never really forgave them just postponed judgement. Strange forgiveness that isn't it? Strange mercy.
john. </font>[/QUOTE]John, your are something else
He did forgive them. When He destroyed them, it was a separate act.
You steal something. The judge can put you in jail, but forgives the crime and puts you on probation instead. You steal again. You are saying all future punishment for stealing should be forgiven because the first one was? The judge put's you in jail this time. You would say to him "I thought you REALLY forgave me, why are you putting me in jail"?
[ September 06, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: webdog ]
Hello webdog.
Jesus took my punishment
It's what I said yesterday: You will not find a good Calvinist ask an Arminian. Be perfect then webdog.
john.
A judge cannot forgive a crime but can show leniency and place a person on probation. If that person commits a crime within a specified time period the old charge will be applied with full force. Probation isn't forgiveness.
No I'm not saying it should be I'm saying it is. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Col 1:14. Of course my sins are not counted against me. Jesus died for me, in my place, for my sins. A full and free pardon from the King of the Universe for me is assured. I am free.
Jesus took my punishment I thought He really forgave me? Are you saying He hasn't?
It's what I said yesterday: You will not find a good Calvinist ask an Arminian. Be perfect then webdog.
Believe it or not you are not the first to say that.
john.
I won't get into this back and forth thing again, but I will say that Nineveh was a wicked city, not a city of believers. You are jumping around using atonement as the basis for God's punishment on them. God put a consequence for Nineveh's actions and a result based on their choice. This did not cover all future choices or actions of that city.
T
TexasSky
Guest
I don't think it is our place to ask what qualities God should or should not have, but rather, what qualities does the bible show that He has.
Dear Bob,
It really is simple. Jonah 4 does not address whether God is obligated to have mercy. It does address whether it would be wrong for God to show mercy. By using Jonah 4 as support for your question you misused scripture.
You just did it again, in that last post. You said "God asks Jonah if he should have mercy ...". No, God did not ask Jonah if He should have mercy. God asked Jonah if He should not have mercy.
Later you said this:
No, Bob, that is not what He asks. Your argument simply will not work unless you leave out a word that scripture leaves in.
Please quote scripture correctly.
Your friend,
whatever
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I am playing catch-up reading all the posts since I signed on last -- but here is what I "suspect" our Calvinists have been doing...
1. Question in OP
What is GOD's argument IN THE TEXT for why HE SHOULD have mercy on them?
Answer: God EXPLICITLY states that HE created them (whereas Jonah did NOT create the plant) and they are ignorant and there are many animals in the city. God gives THESE REASONS for why He SHOULD have mercy INSTEAD of saying "I am sovereign I can do what I want so why SHOULD you be telling Me I Should NOT do as I please either way??"
These details already pointed out in my Sept 5 post.
But the Likely Answer from Calvinists: "Dead silence". (Calvinists engaged in Detail-avoidance)
2. Speaking of my "Sept 5 posts"
(Calvinists engaged in Detail-avoidance - fleeing from the text)
Of course my "expectations" might be wrong. I will now read through the post history to see if we really do have dead silence on the specific points brought out on page 1 of this thread.
In Christ,
Bob
1. Question in OP
What is GOD's argument IN THE TEXT for why HE SHOULD have mercy on them?
Answer: God EXPLICITLY states that HE created them (whereas Jonah did NOT create the plant) and they are ignorant and there are many animals in the city. God gives THESE REASONS for why He SHOULD have mercy INSTEAD of saying "I am sovereign I can do what I want so why SHOULD you be telling Me I Should NOT do as I please either way??"
These details already pointed out in my Sept 5 post.
But the Likely Answer from Calvinists: "Dead silence". (Calvinists engaged in Detail-avoidance)
2. Speaking of my "Sept 5 posts"
Likely answer so far from Calvinists: "Dead Silence"
(Calvinists engaged in Detail-avoidance - fleeing from the text)
Of course my "expectations" might be wrong. I will now read through the post history to see if we really do have dead silence on the specific points brought out on page 1 of this thread.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Interesting "spin".
God does NOT highlight the Calvinist ANSWER as to why Jonah SHOULD NOT be allowed to question if God has the RIGHT to show mercy (or as to whether God is DOING WRONG to show mercy).
And that "Calvinist answer" would be that GOD IS SOVEREIGN and can do as He pleases showing mercy as capriciously as He so desires.
INSTEAD God points to external objective arguments AS IF they have anything AT ALL to do with Why God SHOULD show mercy!!
Certainly they DO have everything to do with it - as predicted by the Arminian model.
But the REASONS given IN THE TEXT have NOTHING to do with justifying God's right to show mercy in the Calvinist model!
This is blatantly obvious.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Here is the text.
Calvinists - please "notice the details".
God argues that Noah SHOULD NOT be angry by asking the negative according to the Hebrew and eastern custome 9Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?"
Details for Calvinists to ignore: (Enumerated)
#1. The implied answer is "no". Jonah beggs to differ with that "statement" made in the form of a question by insisting that to the contrary - HE DOES have good reason to be angry.
#2. God points out that HE is the one that MADE the plant and cause it to grow. Implying that Jonah was having compassion on a plant when in fact he did not have AS MUCH grounds for compassion as God - who by reason of HIS OWN role as "MAKER" And "SUSTAINER" of the plant had more right to compassion by these EXTERNAL facts of work.
#3. God then makes the SAME kind of "statement-in-the-form-of-question" that HE SHOULD have compassion on Nineveh. "SHOULD I NOT have compassion" where the negative (implied negative) is "YES YOU SHOULD" vs "NO you should NOT".
#4. Then the REASONS God gives are NOT the Calvinist reasons of "sovereign fickle will gets to do as it pleases". RATHER it is EXTERNAL object facts that argue for God having mercy - in this case GOD says HE SHOULD have mercy because of the large numbers of people, because of their living in darkness and because of the other creatures in that city.
Good "Arminian" REASONS - but hardly getting a mention when not outright DENIED by the Calvinist model.
See?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Abraham argues "SHOULD NOT" the judge of all the earth do right.
Calvinists argue that this is an argument that "God SHOULD NOT DO RIGHT"
hahaha
What "Should" God say to Abraham??
SHOULD He say "The number of people in the city that are righteous has nothing to do with what I sovereignly decide to do"
SHOULD God say "your silly little arguments for WHY I should spare the city -- have nothing to do with my Sovereign will or whether I will destroy the city".
Did God make a mistake in that discussion?
In Christ,
Bob
Calvinists argue that this is an argument that "God SHOULD NOT DO RIGHT"
hahaha
What "Should" God say to Abraham??
SHOULD He say "The number of people in the city that are righteous has nothing to do with what I sovereignly decide to do"
SHOULD God say "your silly little arguments for WHY I should spare the city -- have nothing to do with my Sovereign will or whether I will destroy the city".
Did God make a mistake in that discussion?
In Christ,
Bob