Should I contact the pastor?

[evangelist6589]

During the sermon today he said the following.

When you are living a good Christian life people will get saved as they will want what you have.

A fruit of a Godly life will be people getting saved.

These comments disturbed me as they undermined the doctrine of Total Depravity for a sinner cannot choose God, for his nature and will are unable to do so without God granting Regeneration which proceeds faith and a response. His other comment was also problematic as it is not us whom does the saving, but God. God does not promise to grant a bunch of decisions just because we are walking with him. Don't know where he got that from. Plenty of Godly people are not seeing people getting saved, but are faithful and out witnessing when able. Are they not living for the Lord due to the lack of responses?

Generally speaking to date I have kept my opinions to myself at this church. Iconlast said its wise to have grace, and a recent Way of the Master Minute devotional spoke about not being judgmental on other christians, but just praying for them, and not following their example. I have had plenty of fights, debates, and arguments in the past when I have acted immature trying to correct people in churches, and in this case perhaps I should just remain silent.

True that some of the books by Mac, Washer, and Comfort are very condemning and judgmental on those whom disagree, but its wise to have grace... Yes indeed grace...What say you?

 

[SolaSaint]

Sometimes I find myself being overly critical when trying to be discerning. I think we can try looking too hard for heresy instead of renewing our minds.

 

[quantumfaith]

Sometimes I find myself being overly critical when trying to be discerning. I think we can try looking too hard for heresy instead of renewing our minds.

Wise words and sage advise.

 

[evangelist6589]

Sometimes I find myself being overly critical when trying to be discerning. I think we can try looking too hard for heresy instead of renewing our minds.

No one ever said anything about heresy and why I debated with myself saying anything. If the church was promoting KJV Onlyism, Emergent Theology, Signs and Wonders, or something of the sort I would speak up as I have in other churches. One church the leadership was promoting Emergent Theology and for that I spoke up, but it fell on deaf ears. In another church the leadership was promoting some New Age worship service of which I also spoke up. I speak up when I need too, but in this church I am not finding anything heretical, just plain Arminian teachings which is bad theology, but not heretical.

 

[agedman]

During the sermon today he said the following.



These comments disturbed me as they undermined the doctrine of Total Depravity for a sinner cannot choose God, for his nature and will are unable to do so without God granting Regeneration which proceeds faith and a response. His other comment was also problematic as it is not us whom does the saving, but God. God does not promise to grant a bunch of decisions just because we are walking with him. Don't know where he got that from. Plenty of Godly people are not seeing people getting saved, but are faithful and out witnessing when able. Are they not living for the Lord due to the lack of responses?

Generally speaking to date I have kept my opinions to myself at this church. Iconlast said its wise to have grace, and a recent Way of the Master Minute devotional spoke about not being judgmental on other christians, but just praying for them, and not following their example. I have had plenty of fights, debates, and arguments in the past when I have acted immature trying to correct people in churches, and in this case perhaps I should just remain silent.

True that some of the books by Mac, Washer, and Comfort are very condemning and judgmental on those whom disagree, but its wise to have grace... Yes indeed grace...What say you?

I am going to put in this tidbit, and then let the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth.

The "doctrine of Total depravity" is not undermined by what you record the preacher said.

Did not Christ say, "Out of your bellies will flow rivers of living water" and in another place, "People do not light a candle and hide it under a bushel" and in another, "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."


See, the believer is a living out of the very Christ.

Some rely totally upon "life style evangelism" but that is just as wrong as thinking that without the lifestyle one can evangelize.

James put it like this:

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
​

The pastor (not knowing the complete context, but taking what you recorded) does have Scriptural basis for his statements.

Lest you forget, I am one of those folks claim holds to Calvinistic thinking.

 

[JamesL]

Did not Christ say, "Out of your bellies will flow rivers of living water" and in another place, "People do not light a candle and hide it under a bushel" and in another, "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."

When I read the original question, I was thinking of the same scripture. Good stuff.


God uses different methods of drawing someone to Christ.

For some, it is the peace and assurance displayed by those who are His, and walk in humble trust and obedience. The unbeliever can see that you are different, and just might desire to drink from the water of life. That is God using your good works to draw men

For others, as was my case, He uses crushing doubt and frantic fear and emptiness. I sought relief with every ounce of my being. That is God using unwanted circumstances to draw men

In either case, it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[SolaSaint]

No one ever said anything about heresy and why I debated with myself saying anything. If the church was promoting KJV Onlyism, Emergent Theology, Signs and Wonders, or something of the sort I would speak up as I have in other churches. One church the leadership was promoting Emergent Theology and for that I spoke up, but it fell on deaf ears. In another church the leadership was promoting some New Age worship service of which I also spoke up. I speak up when I need too, but in this church I am not finding anything heretical, just plain Arminian teachings which is bad theology, but not heretical.

I was speaking about myself.

 

[evangelist6589]

I am going to put in this tidbit, and then let the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth.

The "doctrine of Total depravity" is not undermined by what you record the preacher said.

Did not Christ say, "Out of your bellies will flow rivers of living water" and in another place, "People do not light a candle and hide it under a bushel" and in another, "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."


See, the believer is a living out of the very Christ.

Some rely totally upon "life style evangelism" but that is just as wrong as thinking that without the lifestyle one can evangelize.

James put it like this:

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
​

The pastor (not knowing the complete context, but taking what you recorded) does have Scriptural basis for his statements.

Lest you forget, I am one of those folks claim holds to Calvinistic thinking.

I do not agree. Man cannot save himself and cannot come to faith based on someones lifestyle, but only by a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. You claim to understand Total Depravity but what you have said is not what the scriptures teach on the doctrine.

 

[evangelist6589]

I was speaking about myself.

I think we can try looking too hard for heresy instead of renewing our minds.
__________________

Maybe I am rusty on my grammar but you did not use first person in that sentence.

 

[evangelist6589]

When I read the original question, I was thinking of the same scripture. Good stuff.


God uses different methods of drawing someone to Christ.

For some, it is the peace and assurance displayed by those who are His, and walk in humble trust and obedience. The unbeliever can see that you are different, and just might desire to drink from the water of life. That is God using your good works to draw men

For others, as was my case, He uses crushing doubt and frantic fear and emptiness. I sought relief with every ounce of my being. That is God using unwanted circumstances to draw men

In either case, it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

The best way is when he uses the LAW/ 10 Commandments to convict someone of sin. That is the best way for someone to come to faith. Its not the only way, but its the best way. Lots of false converts of the modern gospel presentation out there.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Maybe I am rusty on my grammar but you did not use first person in that sentence.

He was being diplomatic Evan....
He said "we"....but what he really meant was YOU.
He was just being kind enough to you to couch it in terms of Christianity in general rather than point the finger. You are thanking him for it by getting argumentative with him.

You are perpetually on a witch-hunt, and it benefits neither you, nor the church you are attending.

Agedman and James L. are absolutely correct.

The pastor's statement does nothing to undermine the doctrince of "Total Depravity". Nothing he said undermines any doctrines of Calvinism. God uses means. And one's lifestyle, and a sinner's desiring to know the Living Waters and the Peace of God which abides on some Christians can be one of the means that God uses to "draw" people to him.

The pastor's statement has value from either an Arminian or a Calvinistic perspective.

Here's my suggetion:

step 1.) FIRST, Learn something about what Calvinism or the "Doctrinces of Grace"
actually entails....

step 2.) THEN go around causing dissention at every minor perceived mis-statement from the Pastor at your Church and commence with being a perpetual thorn in his side.

By the time you polish off step 1.....you may have figured out why He is the Pastor and you are not.

 

[evangelist6589]

He was being diplomatic Evan....
He said "we"....but what he really meant was YOU.
He was just being kind enough to you to couch it in terms of Christianity in general rather than point the finger. You are thanking him for it by getting argumentative with him.

You are perpetually on a witch-hunt, and it benefits neither you, nor the church you are attending.

Agedman and James L. are absolutely correct.

The pastor's statement does nothing to undermine the doctrince of "Total Depravity". Nothing he said undermines any doctrines of Calvinism. God uses means. And one's lifestyle, and a sinner's desiring to know the Living Waters and the Peace of God which abides on some Christians can be one of the means that God uses to "draw" people to him.

The pastor's statement has value from either an Arminian or a Calvinistic perspective.

Here's my suggetion:

step 1.) FIRST, Learn something about what Calvinism or the "Doctrinces of Grace"
actually entails....

step 2.) THEN go around causing dissention at every minor perceived mis-statement from the Pastor at your Church and commence with being a perpetual thorn in his side.

By the time you polish off step 1.....you may have figured out why He is the Pastor and you are not.

No one ever said I would cause argument or debate. I have chosen to remain silent. Based upon my readings the statements do conflict with Total Depravity as a SINNER cannot redeem himself. In speaking on the doctrine of Total Depravity/Inability a certain author writes in defense of Calvinism the following.

It means that the sinner is so spiritually bankrupt that he can do nothing pertaining to his salvation... In short the unregenerate man is dead to sin, and his will is enslaved to his evil nature.

The author also cites lots of scriptures that speak in defense of this, but in short man cannot choose to come to Christ because he observes someone living a good life, but can only come to Christ if God has elected him to salvation which may or may not entail lifestyle evangelism. The problem I had with the pastors statements was that they assumed a major benefit of lifestyle evangelism, and undermined the many out there that are faithful and obedient in witnessing but are not seeing the results this side of eternity.

 

[salzer mtn]

During the sermon today he said the following. When you are living a good Christian life people will get saved as they will want what you have.

A fruit of a Godly life will be people getting saved.



These comments disturbed me as they undermined the doctrine of Total Depravity for a sinner cannot choose God, for his nature and will are unable to do so without God granting Regeneration which proceeds faith and a response. His other comment was also problematic as it is not us whom does the saving, but God. God does not promise to grant a bunch of decisions just because we are walking with him. Don't know where he got that from. Plenty of Godly people are not seeing people getting saved, but are faithful and out witnessing when able. Are they not living for the Lord due to the lack of responses?

Generally speaking to date I have kept my opinions to myself at this church. Iconlast said its wise to have grace, and a recent Way of the Master Minute devotional spoke about not being judgmental on other christians, but just praying for them, and not following their example. I have had plenty of fights, debates, and arguments in the past when I have acted immature trying to correct people in churches, and in this case perhaps I should just remain silent.

True that some of the books by Mac, Washer, and Comfort are very condemning and judgmental on those whom disagree, but its wise to have grace... Yes indeed grace...What say you?

The statement the pastor made is total blasphemy, St John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. This is just another attempt by man to share in the glory of salvation with God, but the scripture say's Isa 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another. The problem with people that set Christians so high up on a pinnacle before sinners is that it's not being honest and telling them we as Christians need Christ every day and we fall on our faces and are but sinners saved by grace. The less a person see's in himself the more he will see in Christ, the more a men see's in himself, the less he will see in Christ. The man preaches a works gospel decked in fair speeches that is appealing to the putrid flesh of man. It's a feel good gospel about yourself and how much you have accomplished for God. Evanglist, for your own soul's good go somewhere that you will be fed. When it comes down to your souls salvation you owe no man nothing, not even your wife.

 

[evangelist6589]

The statement the pastor made is total blasphemy, St John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. This is just another attempt by man to share in the glory of salvation with God, but the scripture say's Isa 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another. The problem with people that set Christians so high up on a pinnacle before sinners is that it's not being honest and telling them we as Christians need Christ every day and we fall on our faces and are but sinners saved by grace. The less a person see's in himself the more he will see in Christ, the more a men see's in himself, the less he will see in Christ. The man preaches a works gospel decked in fair speeches that is appealing to the putrid flesh of man. It's a feel good gospel about yourself and how much you have accomplished for God. Evanglist, for your own soul's good go somewhere that you will be fed. When it comes down to your souls salvation you owe no man nothing, not even your wife.

I will need to be patient with her until God opens the door and I need to be in prayer. She argues that "there are no perfect churches." However anyone can say that, even Joel Osteen's church would say that. There are BIBLICAL churches, and I am afraid this one is not the best. Yes the people are very friendly, they are into fellowship, they bring meals to people that are sick and so forth, but so do those in Osteens church!

I have not become a member and may never. No the church is not teaching another gospel, but the pastor almost never if ever hits on the Holiness of God, Sin, Total Depravity, the doctrine of Justification, or anything of the sort.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The statement the pastor made is total blasphemy, St John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. This is just another attempt by man to share in the glory of salvation with God, but the scripture say's Isa 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another. The problem with people that set Christians so high up on a pinnacle before sinners is that it's not being honest and telling them we as Christians need Christ every day and we fall on our faces and are but sinners saved by grace. The less a person see's in himself the more he will see in Christ, the more a men see's in himself, the less he will see in Christ.

The whole idea of what the Pastor said is espoused in your post. Like someone already pointed out, God uses means.

Also, it is not our righteousness or glory that people should see. Our righteousness points all the glory to God and His enabling us to live godly lives and have joy under any circumstances.

The pastor's statements were not misspoken. They were misinterpreted.

 

[evangelist6589]

The whole idea of what the Pastor said is espoused in your post. Like someone already pointed out, God uses means.

Also, it is not our righteousness or glory that people should see. Our righteousness points all the glory to God and His enabling us to live godly lives and have joy under any circumstances.

The pastor's statements were not misspoken. They were misinterpreted.

I disagree. He never preaches to offend anyone and seems overly concerned with attendance and growing the church numerically. For the moment I will be here until God opens the door elsewhere.

I will say their using of a Crown Financial study is a good move on their part and I am thankful to them for that.

 

[Sapper Woody]

I disagree. He never preaches to offend anyone and seems overly concerned with attendance and growing the church numerically. For the moment I will be here until God opens the door elsewhere.

I will say their using of a Crown Financial study is a good move on their part and I am thankful to them for that.

Without knowing the full situation and context, no one here can judge the true message. But the words that you posted, taken by themselves, are perfectly fine. I will ready concede that there are numerous contexts in which those words would have an unbiblical connotation. But like I said, the words themselves are fine. Only you can make the determination there, as you are there.

I will say this though. Even if we disagree on issues, you do need to be involved on a church where you can grow. For instance, you wouldn't be able to grow in the church I used to pastor, because we have too many theological differences. When I was a pastor, I would have (and did) respect that. If a man of God wants people to stay at his church regardless, he is wrong. His desire should be for spiritual growth, not physical.

 

[evangelist6589]

Without knowing the full situation and context, no one here can judge the true message. But the words that you posted, taken by themselves, are perfectly fine. I will ready concede that there are numerous contexts in which those words would have an unbiblical connotation. But like I said, the words themselves are fine. Only you can make the determination there, as you are there.

I will say this though. Even if we disagree on issues, you do need to be involved on a church where you can grow. For instance, you wouldn't be able to grow in the church I used to pastor, because we have too many theological differences. When I was a pastor, I would have (and did) respect that. If a man of God wants people to stay at his church regardless, he is wrong. His desire should be for spiritual growth, not physical.

Well I can't leave for the moment until my spouse learns to submit which is a process... Patience and God's wisdom is what I need...

The pastor wants people to stay in the church regardless.

 

[quantumfaith]

I disagree. He never preaches to offend anyone and seems overly concerned with attendance and growing the church numerically. For the moment I will be here until God opens the door elsewhere.

I will say their using of a Crown Financial study is a good move on their part and I am thankful to them for that.

Are you participating in the Crown study?

 

[Don]

Evangelist - what your pastor said was not anti-biblical.

In your view of total depravity, you are apparently fulfilling the old story of the man who found himself on the roof during a flood. He prayed frevently for God to save him. A boat came by, and the people in it asked if he was okay; he replied, "God will save me." A helicopter flew over, and over its loudspeaker he was asked if he needed assistance. Steadfast in his faith, he again affirmed God would save him. As the story goes, this happened a few more times, and each time the man refused, maintaining that God would save him. The man eventually died of dehydration and exposure. Upon meeting God, he implored: "Why didn't you save me?" To which God replied, "I sent you a boat, a helicopter, and other means...."

It's a silly joke, but it exemplifies what you're missing about what your pastor said. He didn't say that people will save themselves, or that you or I will save them, or that wanting what you have will save them. He said that when God draws someone to Himself, He may cause them to hear the sermon of an outdoor evangelist that He placed on a street corner; or He may cause them to notice the happiness of someone who, by the world's standards, has no reason to have joy in their life, causing them to wonder how this is possible; and through that, they hear the Word.