Should I tithe?

[Havensdad]

You don't know that God did not command capital punishment before Noah. You just know that he DID do capital punishment at least as far back as Noah.

He may have done capital punishment before Noah. We don't know. He does not say, "Now, for the first time ever, it is good to kill killers."

You don't know the situation before Noah.

The same is true with the tithe. We don't KNOW that Noah did not pay tithe. We know that it seemed very natural to Abraham to pay the tithe.

We know that Able brought of his flock to God.

The evidence points to the fact that all of God's people tithed.

But all you have is an argument from silence. The bible doesn't SAY that Noah tithed so he didn't.

I should not have to tell you that the Bible doesn't say a BILLION things that Noah did. That doesn't mean he did not do them.

It is absolutely WRONG to say that Abraham gave the same "tithe" commanded in the Law. He did not. Never was Abram commanded to give the tenth of the spoils of war. He gave it freely, without any command from God. Never do we find an account of Abram giving the tithe commanded in the law.

Never, in the Law, is anyone commanded to give one tenth of the spoils of war to priests. Just because Abram gave a tenth (which is all the word means) of the spoils of war, to Melchizidek, does not mean that automatically equates to the OT tithe mentioned in Malachi, which is a tithe of livestock and grain. It is HORRIFIC hermeneutics to just blindly go through, and equate every "tenth" to each other, as if they are all the same thing.

They are not.

Luke, it bothers me that you respond only to the dispensational antinomian, and you ignore the reformed arguments I am putting forth. I believe it is because you have no answer for them. I would encourage you to think about these things, instead of getting into a pattern of argumentation where you just want to win.

 

[Luke2427]

It is absolutely WRONG to say that Abraham gave the same "tithe" commanded in the Law. He did not. Never was Abram commanded to give the tenth of the spoils of war. He gave it freely, without any command from God. Never do we find an account of Abram giving the tithe commanded in the law.

He gave a tenth to God. That is enough.

Never, in the Law, is anyone commanded to give one tenth of the spoils of war to priests.

They are commanded to give a tenth to God. That is enough.

Just because Abram gave a tenth (which is all the word means) of the spoils of war, to Melchizidek, does not mean that automatically equates to the OT tithe mentioned in Malachi, which is a tithe of livestock and grain. It is HORRIFIC hermeneutics to just blindly go through, and equate every "tenth" to each other, as if they are all the same thing.

It is horrific hermeneutics to ignore the fact that Abraham gave a tenth to God and then the law came along saying that God's people ought to do the same and then Jesus came along and said "This OUGHT ye to have done."

 

[Havensdad]

He gave a tenth to God. That is enough.

Not at all. He gave a tenth to a priest. A non-Levitical priest. If we were to compare this to the Law of Moses, we would conclude that Abram was sinning, since he was not giving in accord with God's commands.

Thus, this is not a "tithe" as described in the law.

They are commanded to give a tenth to God. That is enough.

Not at all. They are actually commanded to give 33.33 percent to support the institutions God had established. And it wasn't money, it was grain.

It is horrific hermeneutics to ignore the fact that Abraham gave a tenth to God and then the law came along saying that God's people ought to do the same

No, it didn't. They were commanded to give grain, not money. And it wasn't 10 percent. It was more than one tithe.

and then Jesus came along and said "This OUGHT ye to have done."

Yeah, mint, and dill. Crops. Not money. To give money, would have been "strange fire" on the altar, and would have been a violation of the law. God specifically commanded the tithe of grains. In fact, he was so concerned that the temple not receive money, that in Deuteronomy 14 He says if the way is too far, and the crops cannot be transported, the people were to sell them, and CONSUME THEM themselves, NOT give that money to the temple and the priesthood.

Giving money as a tithe was NOT allowed.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Luke, it bothers me that you respond only to the dispensational antinomian,

There are no "Anti-nomians" debating here.

and you ignore the reformed arguments I am putting forth.

He hasn't ignored them....he's already answered them. Various people (some of whom you are falsely calling "anti-nomians") have already made those same arguments over the past few days....
Your uniquely "reformed arguments" have added no new information that others whom you are calling anti-nomians haven't already posited, you're kinda a Johnny-come-lately to this topic.

I suppose since others have already made the same "reformed arguments" you are making FOR YOU...they should say, you're welcome.

 

[OldRegular]

You don't know that God did not command capital punishment before Noah. You just know that he DID do capital punishment at least as far back as Noah.

He may have done capital punishment before Noah. We don't know. He does not say, "Now, for the first time ever, it is good to kill killers."

You don't know the situation before Noah.

The same is true with the tithe. We don't KNOW that Noah did not pay tithe.

You correctly say "You don't know!" or "We don't know!". That being the case you cannot assume that you do know which is exactly what you are insisting concerning the tithe!

We know that it seemed very natural to Abraham to pay the tithe.

Perhaps "seemed natural" is in the bias of the reader. No one doubts that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek since Scripture tells us so! We should note that Abraham gave the Priest of God a tithe of the spoils of war. But Abraham did not keep the remaining spoils but gave then up, 90% to the king of Sodom excluding that mentioned in Verse 24. It is worthwhile to read:

Genesis 14:16-24
16. And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17. And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king’s dale.
18. And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20. And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21. And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
22. And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23. That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24. Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

The Priest of God got 10%, the king of Sodom got the majority; and you would use that to justify the necessity of the tithe. It is important to note that in this case there was a recipient of the tithe, Melchizedek. He alone is mentioned as the recipient of a pre-Law tithe.

We know that Able brought of his flock to God.

Able made a burnt offering to God. Did he burn 10% of his flock on an annual basis? Cain made an offering to God of the fruit of his labor. His offering was rejected. It is beyond foolish to assume this event is justification for the tithe.

The evidence points to the fact that all of God's people tithed.

There is no evidence. You are inventing evidence "out of whole cloth" yet you accuse others of arguing from silence. When God is silent what makes your imagination valid? Nothing except your ego!

But all you have is an argument from silence. The bible doesn't SAY that Noah tithed so he didn't.

Noah offered burnt offerings to God and that we know because the Bible tells me so!

Genesis 8:20. And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Now we know why God told Noah to take seven of every clean beast!

Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

I should not have to tell you that the Bible doesn't say a BILLION things that Noah did. That doesn't mean he did not do them.

You are arguing from silence but in doing so you are inventing your evidence "out of whole cloth" and that is a fact!

For some of you youngsters who are not familiar with usage of the term "out of whole cloth" I present the following!

The modern sense of whole cloth emerged in the 19th century when the term began being applied specifically to stories or ideas wholly fabricated for a purpose, without a basis in truth, as in "Isn't this entire story...made out of whole cloth?" (1843, Oxford).

Here is a typical later example: "Absolutely untruthful telegrams were manufactured out of 'whole cloth'" (1897, Oxford).

Today whole cloth means pure fabrication. It is used mainly in the phrase out of whole cloth, meaning without basis or truth, as in "it is a tissue of lies made up out of whole cloth."

http://voices.yahoo.com/out-whole-cloth-origin-meaning-expression-3978304.html​

 

[Luke2427]

You correctly say "You don't know!" or "We don't know!". That being the case you cannot assume that you do know which is exactly what you are insisting concerning the tithe!

Perhaps "seemed natural" is in the bias of the reader. No one doubts that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek since Scripture tells us so! We should note that Abraham gave the Priest of God a tithe of the spoils of war. But Abraham did not keep the remaining spoils but gave then up, 90% to the king of Sodom excluding that mentioned in Verse 24. It is worthwhile to read:

Genesis 14:16-24
16. And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.
17. And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king’s dale.
18. And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20. And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
21. And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.
22. And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23. That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24. Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

The Priest of God got 10%, the king of Sodom got the majority; and you would use that to justify the necessity of the tithe. It is important to note that in this case there was a recipient of the tithe, Melchizedek. He alone is mentioned as the recipient of a pre-Law tithe.

Able made a burnt offering to God. Did he burn 10% of his flock on an annual basis? Cain made an offering to God of the fruit of his labor. His offering was rejected. It is beyond foolish to assume this event is justification for the tithe.

There is no evidence. You are inventing evidence "out of whole cloth" yet you accuse others of arguing from silence. When God is silent what makes your imagination valid? Nothing except your ego!

Noah offered burnt offerings to God and that we know because the Bible tells me so!

Genesis 8:20. And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Now we know why God told Noah to take seven of every clean beast!

Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

You are arguing from silence but in doing so you are inventing your evidence "out of whole cloth" and that is a fact!

For some of you youngsters who are not familiar with usage of the term "out of whole cloth" I present the following!

The modern sense of whole cloth emerged in the 19th century when the term began being applied specifically to stories or ideas wholly fabricated for a purpose, without a basis in truth, as in "Isn't this entire story...made out of whole cloth?" (1843, Oxford).

Here is a typical later example: "Absolutely untruthful telegrams were manufactured out of 'whole cloth'" (1897, Oxford).

Today whole cloth means pure fabrication. It is used mainly in the phrase out of whole cloth, meaning without basis or truth, as in "it is a tissue of lies made up out of whole cloth."

http://voices.yahoo.com/out-whole-cloth-origin-meaning-expression-3978304.html​

Able gave something.

Then we see Abraham give a tenth. So we figure that it is likely that he got that idea from somewhere.

Then the law comes along and demands a TENTH. We figure they got that idea from somewhere.

Then Jesus came along and said that tithing is something that people ought to do while NOT leaving undone the weightier matters of the law like mercy.

I don't think ANYTHING you post above even remotely undermines these facts that I keep reiterating.

 

[OldRegular]

Able gave something.

Able gave a burnt offering of his flock. His offering was accepted.

Cain gave a burnt offering of his produce. It was rejected.

And you use this story as justification for the tithe! Incredibly self serving!

Then we see Abraham give a tenth. So we figure that it is likely that he got that idea from somewhere.

That seems likely!

Then the law comes along and demands a TENTH. We figure they got that idea from somewhere.

I figure they got the idea from God because the Bible tells me so!

Then Jesus came along and said that tithing is something that people ought to do while NOT leaving undone the weightier matters of the law like mercy.

Jesus Christ was talking to those who were still under the law. He was verbally chastising them as I have previously shown. But since you have a problem I will show it one more time!

Matthew 23:23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:42. But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

There is nothing in Scripture commanding those under the New Covenant to tithe!

I don't think ANYTHING you post above even remotely undermines these facts that I keep reiterating.

Luke! Luke! Any facts you have mention supporting the pre-law tithe you have invented "out of whole cloth"! You are doing the same by using the Chastening of the Pharisees by Jesus Christ [Scripture presented above.] as the basis for Christian tithing.

The insistence that the tithe is mandatory for Christians is, in large part, the invention of the Church hierarchy and/or pastors who want to build bigger "barns" [See Luke 12:16ff which I previously posted.] for their own edification and that is the sad truth.:wavey::wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

Able gave a burnt offering of his flock. His offering was accepted.

Cain gave a burnt offering of his produce. It was rejected.

And you use this story as justification for the tithe! Incredibly self serving!

Self- serving?

That's kind a jack-ass thing to say, isn't it?

The point is that Able GAVE. Its very simple to follow. He gave to God. What does that establish? That giving, though no where commanded in the Bible at that stage was something that God's people DID.

How much did they give?

Well, we don't know yet.

Enter Abraham.

Where did he get the idea to give a tenth to God?

The Bible no where says that an angel told him to give that much. It seems as if he was familiar with this idea already.

Now, we look back at Able in light of the new information that Abraham gave a tenth and we say, "Did Able give a tenth to God? Possibly- maybe even likely."

But if Moses hadn't come along our case would be less than solid.

But he did. And not coincidentally, Moses told the people they had to give... yep, that's right... a tenth- the same thing that Abraham gave to God.

Now, intelligent people begin to see a possible pattern unfolding.

Then the Old Testament ends with God FURIOUS that his people are taking the tithe lightly and he literally abandons them because of it.

Then the NT opens with Jesus saying that tithing is something that people ought to do while at the same time doing the EVEN weightier matters of the law.

Also, the NT does not require LESS of God's people- it requires more in every area of life.

Added to all of this is the fact that the NT NO WHERE SAYS TO STOP TITHING- NO WHERE.

Well, that ought to be enough for any objective person to conclude that God's people still ought to give AT LEAST a tenth of whatever he blesses them with to God.

 

[OldRegular]

Self- serving?

That's kind a jack-ass thing to say, isn't it?

Because it is true and sometimes the truth hits a sore spot doesn't it Luke!

The point is that Able GAVE. Its very simple to follow. He gave to God. What does that establish? That giving, though no where commanded in the Bible at that stage was something that God's people DID.

Able made a burnt offering. Cain made a burnt offering. Both gave but only the offering of Able was acceptable. It is nonsense, even borderline stupid, to try to justify a pre law tithe from this event, particularly given the outcome.

How much did they give?

Well, we don't know yet.

And we never will know! Able was unable to make additional burnt offerings and Cain was unlikely to make any more burnt offerings.

Enter Abraham.

Where did he get the idea to give a tenth to God?

The Bible no where says that an angel told him to give that much. It seems as if he was familiar with this idea already.

I don't know and the Bible doesn't say. It may have been the custom of the times or Abraham may have had a special revelation not recorded for us. It is a fact that what is revealed in Scripture is all we need to know and it is sinful to add to Scripture or take away from Scripture. You are adding to Scripture!

The Seed Faith people would have a ball using your method of interpretation. Actually I believe they do. They could cite Abrahams gift of "seed faith" to Melchezidek and then talk about all God gave Abraham. Of course they would not mention what Abraham gave the king of Sodom especially since God destroyed Sodom some years later!

Now, we look back at Able in light of the new information that Abraham gave a tenth and we say, "Did Able give a tenth to God? Possibly- maybe even likely."

Pure supposition! You are arguing from silence. As I have said previously when God is silent man should shut up. The Christian community is full of heresy because people added to the Word of God. The worst example is probably the Word of Faith Movement followed by Roman Catholicism!

But if Moses hadn't come along our case would be less than solid.

Moses didn't just come along!!!!!!!!

But he did. And not coincidentally, Moses told the people they had to give... yep, that's right... a tenth- the same thing that Abraham gave to God.

WRONG AGAIN! Moses did not invent the law. GOD GAVE IT!

Now, intelligent people begin to see a possible pattern unfolding.

Intelligent people do not ramble on indefinitely when Scripture is silent!

Then the Old Testament ends with God FURIOUS that his people are taking the tithe lightly and he literally abandons them because of it.

What a Crock! Are you declaring that God had a temper tantrum????

Furthermore, God never abandons His Chosen Ones!

With the birth and crucifixion of Jesus Christ the mission of the nation Israel in God’s purpose of redemption had been accomplished. They now occupy the same status before God as all people! Perhaps you should read what the Epistle to the Romans states about Israel.

Then the NT opens with Jesus saying that tithing is something that people ought to do while at the same time doing the EVEN weightier matters of the law.

I now recognize the source of your trouble. you are using an imitation of Scripture. The New Testament opens in my preferred Bible with the following:

Matthew 1:1. The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Now I realize that the KJV is old but I don't believe modern "translations" will change this Verse to include the tithe! If you find one that does I suggest you discard it!

Also, the NT does not require LESS of God's people- it requires more in every area of life.

Yes it does but it also tells us:

2 Corinthians 9:1-8
1. For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
2. For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
3. Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
4. Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
5. Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
6. But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Notice in the above Scripture the purpose for giving, not for building great edifices but for the care of the Saints. Also notice that giving is not mandatory so it is a falsehood to say that Jesus Christ demands the tithe under the New Covenant! I have addressed this in an earlier post!

Added to all of this is the fact that the NT NO WHERE SAYS TO STOP TITHING- NO WHERE.

I am heard of hearing but my left eye is corrected to 20/20. No where in Scripture are those under the New Covenant instructed that the tithe is mandatory. I have noted before and will again. The tithe was introduced into Christendom for the sole purpose of building edifices that glorify man, not God. I would remind you once again what God desires:

Hosea 6:4-7
4. O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
5. Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6. For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7. But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

The insistence on a mandatory tithe is the forerunner of a works based religion, not Christianity.

Well, that ought to be enough for any objective person to conclude that God's people still ought to give AT LEAST a tenth of whatever he blesses them with to God.

You are hardly an example of an objective person. In fact your bias, your arrogance, overflows your posts.

However, your fatal error is that you believe giving to an organized Church is giving to God. This is the problem with those who insist that the tithe, which was for the Levitical priesthood under the Law, is still a requirement for the New Testament Church.

One final Scripture for your edification though I suspect it will fail to penetrate your ego. You apparently believe that you are already on the pinnacle!

Proverbs 15:8. The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Proverbs 21:27. The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind? :wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:

 

[Havensdad]

There are no "Anti-nomians" debating here.

If you are dispensational, you are antinomian. This is not a disparagement, it is just a fact of that theological system. Dispensationalism says the entirety of the OT law was given to Israel, not the entirety of humanity. Thus, they are "against" Christians keeping the law.

He hasn't ignored them....he's already answered them. Various people (some of whom you are falsely calling "anti-nomians") have already made those same arguments over the past few days....
Your uniquely "reformed arguments" have added no new information that others whom you are calling anti-nomians haven't already posited, you're kinda a Johnny-come-lately to this topic.

I suppose since others have already made the same "reformed arguments" you are making FOR YOU...they should say, you're welcome.

I would be very interested to see the schizophrenic dispensationalist who made arguments using the threefold division of the law...since Dispenationalism flatly denies it.