Should pastors have salaries?

[rlvaughn]

Bro. Jim, I'd like to make some comments on the quote from Grasping God's Word by Duvall and Hays. First, I would say that I agree that this is sound advice. But it is, after all, just advice - no more inspired than that which you or I might give. Second, I think it is good advice as far as it goes. Close inspection reveals a possible bias slanted toward one type of conclusion. While they say:

"We are separated from the biblical audience by culture and customs, language, situation, and a vast expanse of time." p19

They do not say that we also have many things in common with that audience. Duvall and Hays also urge us to ask, "What are the differences between the biblical audience and us?" but not to ask, "What are the similarities between the biblical audience and us?" Will failing to ask both sides of these questions not possibly slant us toward a particular conclusion?

He then says, "our goal is to grasp the meaning of the text God intended." p21

Certainly a worthy goal, to which I hope all of us aspire.

And, proceeds to list 4 steps:
1. What did the text mean to the biblical audience?
2. What are the differences between the biblical audience and us?
3. What is the theological principle in this text?
4. How should individual Christians TODAY apply the theological principle in their lives?

These are sound steps to follow in understanding God's word.

I certainly have no quarrel with these four steps. I believe they will be helpful in understanding God's word. I ask these types of questions when I reading and studying. I believe I have followed a similar method of inquiry and have nevertheless come to very different conclusions from many of you of this topic (and many other topics).

The Baptist Church is not the same to-day as it was when I first started, and certainly not the same as when Smythe first started.

I readily agree with you, though I would not agree that all the changes are for the better. I think that indoor plumbing is an improvement over the outhouse, and that having air conditioning is better than suffering through meetings in the sweltering Texas heat and humidity. But I also remember times when so many people wanted to invite the preachers to their homes that they almost had to fight over who would get them. Recently, I seen some preachers travel long distances and no one thinks to even take them out to lunch, much less invite them into their home. Yes, things are not the same today as when I started. Some for the better; some for the worse. One thing we can be sure of is change.

Again, I think the main separation of the positions of whether to pay or not pay salaries is one of a difference in our doctrine and philosophy of ministry. Yes, there may be the peripheral issues - loving money, etc. - but those are only sidelights. There are plenty of people on both sides that have a love of money. Perhaps we should explore this philosophy of ministry some more. Gotta go, or I'll be late for the town meeting (don't live there, wouldn't live there, wouldn't go if my wife didn't work there!)

 

[j_barner2000]

I think much of it depends upon the conditions set by the church and pastor. If the church expects the pastor to spend 50 hours a week ministering to them, then they should pay him for his time.

On the other hand, our pastor and associate pastor are bi-vocational, and as such are paid, but mainly it almost covers expenses. I am pastoral intern and work a full time job. Finances are tight, but, God provides and we get by. The church has decided that they can not afford to help me pay seminary tuition. It's all good. God provides. I know God has called me to that position. He calls many to pastoral ministry. If the church wants part time pastor then perhaps he will not require pay from them. If they expect him to put in so many hours that he cannot otherwise support his needs then they need to provide for that. And it is not unreasonable to provide a set amount at a set interval. It can be very stressful (even knowing God will provide) not to know I can pay said bill on said day of the month.

 

[rlvaughn]

Hi, j. Welcome to the Baptist Board and to this discussion. Your post brings to light part of that to which I refer as a difference in philosophy of ministry. I can only briefly touch on it now; hopefully we can discuss it further. If a church requires all of a man's time (that is, so much that he could not work elsewhere) how could they expect to do any less than pay him a full time salary? But should they do so? Should they allow him to do so? IMO, this is contrary to the scriptural idea of the church as a family, a community and a functioning body. The idea is not to have one man (or a few) minister to the needs of everyone else, but that they serve one another, each contributing his/her own special gift to the edification of the entire body.

 

[j_barner2000]

That is why our pastoral staff are bivocational. Our pastor has been ministering for 54 years and has insisted on being bivocational all of those years.

 

[Jim1999]

As I have mentioned before, I am not opposed to bi-vocational ministries. I did that in one church that couldn't afford a minister. I worked as an architect and quite happily so. I do architectural work now in retirement, but for my own enjoyment, and still minister where I am required. That too is a joy.

The Plymouth Brethren have never entertained a paid clergy, even for preaching purposes, visitation and normal functions; wedding, funerals and baptisms.

There are several questions which come to my mind. One is the need for a servant to retire in this day and age. There are certain demands and things like medicare alone can be very expensive. We seem to live longer and some suffer more ailments. Then, there is the question of income taxes. It is much more economical and efficient to make regular contributions. Does the preacher declare ALL his income and record his expenses?

As a student, I was given an honourarium of $15.00 to preach on Sundays. I never claimed this as income at the time. After a few years, I was convicted on this matter and decided to make it right with the government. I had penalties to pay.

It would have been much easier if the church had made a proper payment and recorded it as such in their books and with the government.

In full ministry, my week was often 50-60 hours with services and preparation. This left little time for outside work. Perhaps I made myself busy because I had the time......maybe the church would have gotten along without all my hours.

Years ago, people cared more for the older preachers. Some were provided with housing and extras. Most, however, had to preach to earn a few dollars to pay their way. This is a very poor testimony, in my opinion. We say that God will provide for all our needs......True, and God also employs means,,,,,,such as pension plans and a regular income.

If money was my goal, there is no question that I would remain in architectural practice. Consider that the general rule in architecture is to charge 20 per cent of the total cost of building as a fee for services. Since I mostly worked with historical buildings, that fee was substantial, and one job paid far more in a few months that I ever earned for a full year in ministry.

Paul says that a "labourer is worthy of his hire," and translated to modern times that means a decent wage duly paid by the local church. It is not a wage for hours contributed, but rather for subsistence in this old world.

For those who choose to labour outside the church, God bless you. Had I wished for that, I might have remained with the Plymouth Brethren where I was pointed to the Lord in salvation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
In a correspondence on this subject several years ago, I made this statement to another preacher, "There seems to be a deliberate tension in the scriptures - on the one hand exhorting churches to support the ministry, and, on the other hand, urging ministers to be self-supporting."

I think that this is a similar tension to when we find Paul saying "faith alone" while James says "faith without works is dead." Compensating a pastor is a natural result of having a good minister. In this case it is more like "minister alone" vs. "ministering without pay is dead."

I, for one, and in my particular situation, strongly advocate salaries + benefits for pastors. I could not imagine asking a man to take that responsibility without compensating him in a consistent monetary manner.

A good pastor is is beneficial for a church on all levels. Whether it is taking the heat for problems within a church, marrying a couple or comforting the bereaved the pastor is the lifeline for many in the flock. He is on call 24 hours a day and needs to be strong in situations that weaken the affected believer. Even if there are a dozen members of his church in the hospital, Heaven forbid he not find time to call Sister Bertha Betterthanyou when she missed two Sundays in a row! While he may be a single vote in the church business meeting, out in the community among the other believers and non-believers he is the primary represenative for the church. Not to mention he has to come up with a sermon every week, Bible study on Wednesday nights, and funeral services which must be specific to each individual. With all of these duties I fail to see how he could possibly have time for a second job to support himself and his family.

His wife, who must also live on his salary, has just as many duties and only 1/4 of the recognition.

I just can not imagine expecting a family to fill that type of burdensome obligation without monetary compensation. As Jim pointed out, the 21st century requires financial stability and regularity if one is to purchase a car, a home, a college tuition, or any loan. A single trip to the hospital can leave a family financially crippled for generations. Lawsuits, children, home maintaineneces, the list goes on and on of heavy financial obligation in our times.

While there seems to be a vein of "he shouldn't be worried about the money part of it" from some, I contend that the church body should not be so worried about it either. You know, consider the lillies of the field and the birds of the air.

...and to be quite frank, I don't think I'd WANT the job! No matter how much a good minister is paid, he's underpaid.

 

[Hardsheller]

As a Pastor if I'm in it for the money then I'm the biggest fool I know.

When I gave up my career and my wife gave up hers to go to seminary we were well on the way to a successful financial future.

The difference between our combined salaries and the compensation received from our first church was a decrease of over 85%.

I think the thrust of this discussion is perhaps misguided. Rather than asking if Pastors should have salaries why not ask what do you ask pastors to financially sacrifice in order to be your pastors?

 

[rlvaughn]

Clint, I believe that the situations that you mention are very real; and they do not go away just because I might discuss that they should not be that way. BUT...pastors (whose wives have "just as many duties") should not necessarily take "the heat for problems within a church," be "on call 24 hours a day," visit "members of his church in the hospital," be "the primary representative for the church," perform "funeral services," "marrying...or comforting the bereaved" any more than any other member of the church. I know that these are the assumed and traditional duties of a pastor in our society, but I do not agree that they belong to pastors alone according to the Scriptures. I do not mean to say pastors should not do any of these things. I am saying that they are no more the responsibility of the pastor than they are of the rest of the membership. So I don't think the neglect is always in not paying pastors, but in a church expecting its pastor (usually only one) to be superman (and to be superman on an plain man salary). And yes, churches usually get a pretty good bargain with all the pastor's wife's labor that they get for "free". I think there is a very real need for reform in Baptist churches in the area of expecting the pastor(s) to perform the functions of ministry that belong to the entire church.

[ January 16, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[Living by Faith]

Yes they should recieve a salary and raises and bonus, and prayers from thier members. My Pastor has always been "on call". I can call at 1:00 A.M. and say "Bill in the hosptal" or the kids and Pastor and /or Miss Priscilla will be there nothing flat. I'm the first to say have we given Pastor a raise? Does he need something? Which one of us aren't the first to drop a hint when we don't recieve that raise soon enough or that bonus? Pastors are often times I feel really under paid and deserve more for the time they put in and they deserve are respect for the hard job of balancing all of us together and keeping us focused on Christ. So the real question have you given your Pastor a raise this year.
Jeanne

[ January 16, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Living by Faith ]

 

[Pete]

Now and then mum tells me to go full-time...That is one thing I'll disagree with her on.

You name it, I'll do it, but try and pay me and you better be able to fight better than I can

Still "no"

Pete

 

[wingtrap]

Are we required to pay pastor's?
Maybe,maybe not.
But,just like tithing,if we give out of commandment,we have *no* reward.Such as paying a pastor,it should be our pleasure and priviledge to pay a man handsomly who has a calling,a burden and a passion to see the work of Jesus prospered.
Luke 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were *commanded* him?I TROW NOT.
It should be act of faith,or,if we did it not,we would robbing our own selves of peace and happiness in the service of the King!

 

[j_barner2000]

I think that it really must be a matter of prayer. If a man is asked to be available to the members of the congregation 24/7 and is thereby unable to support his family by working, then he should be renumerated. On the other hand, if the church is a small mission like the one i am in, then the congregation needs to help minister more and allow the pastor to have time to have a "paying " job to support himself and family. Paul obviously was allowed time to earn a living, and when he was not able to do this, he was provided for by the churches.

 

[Ben W]

That is a good point, there is certainley a role for the small churches.

We shold not be based on who does what, or even how it is done. Obviously a small group cannot support a minister, either should they. They can however move mountains just like anyone else.

 

[Tony Solomon]

I think it depends on circumstances, and reasoning behind the support. Big denominations can pay a pastor regardless of where he is, so that the Baptist Union GB can send a man almost anywhere.

We ourselves are a small church of 6 members, so I work in an undemanding job, and they pay the bills on my car (they bought it too, second hand). They would like to pay me so I can go full time, and I would like to go full time, to study more, but that is not a possibility.
God has provided the means that keeps everyone happy at the moment. Many of our ministers are "selfmade men" or professionals who don't need/want a church to support them, whereas some pastor churches big enough that they are supported.

peace in Him

 

[Ernie Brazee]

1 Kings 17:4For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth. 15And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days. 16And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.

A study of the above passage teaches that God takes care of those who take care of the man of God.

Shame on some of you, expecting your pastor to hold down a secular job, yet when you have a spiritual question, you expect him to drop everything and see to your needs. How many times has the pastor had to remain after church to counsel with some one who could have as easily found the answer through prayer and reading the Bible.

How many who think the pastor should hold a secular job expect him to show up at the hospital before you are even processed in?

How many disturb the pastor's meals with trivial questions? Or how about disrupting his sleep or when he may be studying?

The pastor is expected to be available 24/7 and some members can't even attend church regularly.

The pastor is to be available 24/7 yet some mebers chafe if he preaches past noon.

Yes, the pastor should receive a salary, as much as the church can afford. He is responsible for your souls and will answer to God someday for his stewardship.

How many of you would hold a job with no salary, and those advocating the pastor hold a secular job, would you work a second job to support your employer?

THINK ABOUT IT

 

[Pete]

OIC, looks like I got it wrong with 1 Peter 2:9, I guess it is just for the pastor...

Pete

 

[Ben W]

THINK ABOUT IT ERNIE.

If the Church ran the way that God ordained, The pastor would be equal with the other offices of the Church (Evangalist, Teacher etc). Hence he would do an even share of the work.

Capatalist structure is the way of the Modern Church, not the way the church was planted.

Embrace Capatalism, Embrace the church salary system.

Embrace the Co-Operative system, embrace Gods Church.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Ben W:
THINK ABOUT IT ERNIE.

If the Church ran the way that God ordained, The pastor would be equal with the other offices of the Church (Evangalist, Teacher etc). Hence he would do an even share of the work.

Capatalist structure is the way of the Modern Church, not the way the church was planted.

Embrace Capatalism, Embrace the church salary system.

Embrace the Co-Operative system, embrace Gods Church.

... are you going to turn this into a discussion on the evils of capitalism?

Nevermind that in the context of the church (II Thes.), Paul says that if you don't work you don't eat.

Back to the discussion, so many preachers can't preach and can barely teach because of a lack of study time. If they are so concerned with another job on top of it, that is even less time.

The last thing a pastor should worry about how he will be able to support his family. Those who preach by the word need to live by the word.

What about the verses that Pastor Larry brought up?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ben W:
If the Church ran the way that God ordained, The pastor would be equal with the other offices of the Church (Evangalist, Teacher etc). Hence he would do an even share of the work.

The biblical description of hte pastor is one who is given charge. That is why one of his titles is "episkopos" meaning overseer. That is why one of his qualification is to "manage well his own own household for if he does not manage his own household, how shall he manage the church of God?" That is why often we are told that the pastor has charge over the flock.

The evangelist would certainly fit because the evangelist in Scripture is a missionary church planter, and therefore a pastor of the church he planted. The office of teacher also refers to the pastor and thus, you have the same deal.

It is true that everyone should be ministering but according to Eph 4:11-15, the pastor's job is to train the saints to do the work of the ministry. I always tell my people, It is not my job to do the work of the ministry; it is my job to train and equip you to do the work of the ministry. I agree we need to return to the biblical model. I don't believe that you have talked about the biblical model here.

Bottom line is that the pastor, in most cases, should be a vocational ministry and he should be paid from the gifts of the people. That is the biblical model and the biblical command.

It has nothing to do with capitalism. I don't even know why that is brought up here.

 

[Pete]

Lets see, at old old Church I was guitar player, Sunday school teacher, then young peoples Bible study writer/leader...

At old Church I was guitar player, Sunday school teacher/lesson writer, puppet script writer/operator, bus driver, few other projects, preached a few times...

Anyone got a calculator?

What's my back pay?

How much should I charge Church I attend now for doing Sunday school again?

Pete