Should some beats be avoided?

[Filmproducer]

I honestly can't think of a single reggae song that would encourage anyone to move in a "sexually suggestive way".

[tongue in cheek]
I'm pretty sure Bob Marleys "Buffalo Soldier" falls under that category or was it "Get up Stand up" :laugh:

 

[Filmproducer]

"Praise God, I love Jesus"

NOW THAT IS WORSHIP!!!

Amen! Praise God, I love Jesus! :thumbs: :godisgood:

 

[Sopranette]

Thank you! These are some great artists who truly love the Lord and are doing His will. IMO, it all boils down to one thing and that is preference, and I'm sorry Sopranette but frankly, and yes I am going to be blunt, judging by your comments you don't really prefer, and even go so far as to condemn most, forms of "urban" (read black) music. Depending on the people and the church some reggae or rap music may be appropriate for any number of things, including worship and praise. I say leave it up to the church and it's members and if you feel strongly that your church is somehow using sinful beats address it and/or find another church.

Note: I am in no way calling you racist. Just wanted to clarify.

false.

I also mentioned a number of predominately white genres of music, such as heavy metal and punk.
Personally, the whole "if it feels good, do it" philosophy doesn't work for me. I have to seriously question what IS good before I do it. But to each his own. I'm more grateful than ever our church also doesn't accept this whole "if it feels good, it IS good" philosophy, either. "Whatever works" is the message I'm getting from this thread, the end justifies the means.

love,

Sopranette

 

[tinytim]

The end doesn't have to justify the means if there is no sin in the means...

Where is the sin from scripture?

 

[Filmproducer]

false.

I also mentioned a number of predominately white genres of music, such as heavy metal and punk.
Personally, the whole "if it feels good, do it" philosophy doesn't work for me. I have to seriously question what IS good before I do it. But to each his own. I'm more grateful than ever our church also doesn't accept this whole "if it feels good, it IS good" philosophy, either. "Whatever works" is the message I'm getting from this thread, the end justifies the means.

love,

Sopranette

My my you are an arrogant one, aren't you. "The whole if it feels good philosophy"? Who said aything about that? Let me give you a hint, it wasn't me. Now take your holier than thou, any music, er beats, I do not prefer is of the flesh feeling good sin and pull the beam out of your eye. At the very least let churches decide what worship means for them and stay out of it, it is none of your concern. There is not sin in a beat, and no some beats are not wrong.

 

[Filmproducer]

false.

Ummmm.....Did you even read what I worte? Apparantly not. The fact you mentioned metal and punk does not negate the fact you do not prefer urban music. So what was "false" about my assessment, other than you don't like it pointed out to you?

 

[Sopranette]

My preferences are irrevelant to this thread.

I will admit both sides are at fault on one thing; that is, we both love music very, very much. And it is a fact that all music that we know is a product of this world. I think both sides can get very caught up in this, and that is a danger. Satan's oldest trick in the book was to put something beautiful and tempting in front of us, because he knew many of us could not resist. We should all be mindful of this danger.

love,

Sopranette

 

[Joe]

Great post Sopranette

 

[tinytim]

My preferences are irrevelant to this thread.

I will admit both sides are at fault on one thing; that is, we both love music very, very much. And it is a fact that all music that we know is a product of this world. I think both sides can get very caught up in this, and that is a danger. Satan's oldest trick in the book was to put something beautiful and tempting in front of us, because he knew many of us could not resist. We should all be mindful of this danger.

love,

Sopranette

No Joe, that was not a good post.
Sopranette, are you suggesting that all music is of the world, and therefore sinful?... I bolded your comment that sounds this way...

What are you going to do with the fact that there is music in Heaven?

You have taken what God created, broke it down into elements and pitted them against each other... Melody good, some beats good, others evil...

The problem is, God has not said this anywhere.
You are pretending to speak for God... and doing so without any authority...

I will be the first to admit... "I don't like all types of music"
But that is how God put me together...
He didn't make clones, so we each are different...

Instead of calling each other's differences evil... why not just accept the fact that God created differences...

For instance... I HATE beets... I abhor Beets.. especially the pickled kind!!! At one church we got a jar every Christmas!!! I took them graciously.

But I would be overstepping my boundries if I told people at church no beets were allowed on the property.... and none for church dinners...

Neither type of beets...(beats) are evil... If so, prove it from God's word... The Bible...
The Bible is silent, and we should be too...

I would be happy to be silent.. but it is the crowd, that has decided to play God by calling their preferences holy, that keeps calling God's children sinful! And as long as they are misleading people into beleiving that their preferences are holier than thou preferences... I have a responsibility as a preacher to speak up, and stand for truth...

The truth is, it is all about opinions... and everyone has one.

Accept differences.. it is a lot less stressful.. and more gracious... just like our Father.

 

[tinytim]

For those of you that believe beats are evil.. .are there differen melodies that are evil also...

If Satan corrupted beats, it only reasons that he corrupted melodies also...

Are there certain scales that are evil?...

Maybe the very word scales are evil.. after all a snake has them... and Satan was a serpent....

Are there certain instruments that are evil?

Are there notes that are evil?

Why pick on beats?

(self edited because I crossed the line)

 

[DHK]

Are there beats that are evil? Definitely! When the beat becomes prominent, over-riding the lyrics and melody so that the words cannot be understood, then it is evil.
Can the lyrics be evil? Most defnitely! They can be downright blasphemous. All music is not of God. Some music is designed to be outright rebellious to God and was born in rebellion to God.

Again the question must be asked by every Christian: Where is the line drawn? Where does one stop being a friend of God and start being the enemy of God (James 4:4). The answer is when you start being a friend of the world. And when the world loves your music as much as the world's music you have become the enemy of God. The principle is as simple as that.

It used to be that when I went into a secular music store and glanced around there was nothing there that was Christian. There never was a category for "sacred music." That would have been anathema in such stores. It would never have sold. Now in almost every secular music store there are entire sections on one of the most popular genres of music that is being sold to the public. It falls under a name that encompasses a wide variety of music, and is called CCM. While I may admit that not all CCM is off the wall type of music, a lot of it is. In fact most of it is. In most of it the beat does over-ride the words, so that the words cannot be understood clearly, and the lyrics are clearly drowned out.

OT music clearly was not so. The lyrics were always predominant, and the beat was secondary.

In the NT, there is good evidence that no musical instruments were ever used in the churches until about 250 A.D. Thus they are not a necessity in the local church; they are a luxury, and ought to be used with great care not to glorify the world, or the performer, but only God. Spurgeon would not have any musical instrument in his church lest the instrument distract the listener from truly worshiping God.

 

[Sopranette]

Thanks, Joe!

Therin lies the problem, Tiny Tim. We are commanded to worship God with songs of praise, but the only music we know of has been produced by the world. So we should consider...what will make our brother's and sister's heart raise up in worship, and what might cause them to stumble? TO ME, it is obvious there are some that will cause them to stumble. TO ME, there are some forms of music that mimic those associated with sinful behaviour. So we should also be aware that there IS A POSSIBILITY that there are some forms of music that are not appropriate for worship. Would you consider at least that as a possibility?

love,

Sopranette

 

[DHK]

Thanks, Joe!

but the only music we know of has been produced by the world.

Opinion and not fact.

TO ME, it is obvious

More evidence of opinion without fact.

TO ME, there are some forms of music...

Further evidence of opinion and not fact

there IS A POSSIBILITY that

I may agree, but it is opinion.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

These are two key passages that teach about music in the NT. In Colossians it directly relates music to the Word of God, to teaching and admonishing, to singing psalms and hymns, and spiritual songs, and singing with grace in your hearts. I hardly believe that rock music is singing with grace.

In Ephesians the singing is actually described as speaking. That is it is more inward concentrating on a heart attitude and again coming from the Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. The emphasis is on singing, not instruments. The emphasis is on the melody, not on the beat.

It is interesting that in verse 18, preceding Eph.5:19, the command is to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Thus the result of being filled with the Holy Spirit is singing and making melody in your heart.

The verse following, vs. 20, says "giving thanks." The result of singing and making melody in your hearts is a thankful person.

There are definite kinds of music spoken of in the Bible. The type of music that David used before Saul, he played on a harp. It was soothing. The beat was soft, hardly noticeable. And yet, in some way it was powerful enough to drive out a demon. Perhaps one might say, it was Spirit-filled music; the very opposite of the music being played when the nation of Israel danced naked around a golden calf.

 

[rbell]

Are there beats that are evil? Definitely! When the beat becomes prominent, over-riding the lyrics and melody so that the words cannot be understood, then it is evil.

Scriptural support?

At what point does the beat become "evil?" What if you don't understand the words, but another does? Does it become, then, a matter of auditory determination as to its sinfulness?

 

[tinytim]

Thanks, Joe!

Therin lies the problem, Tiny Tim. So we should also be aware that there IS A POSSIBILITY that there are some forms of music that are not appropriate for worship. Would you consider at least that as a possibility?

love,

Sopranette

ABSOLUTELY!!

There is CCM I use for worship, some for evangelism or edification,and some for entertainment...
Worship is to be directed toward God
Evangelism and edification is to steer people toward God

And entertainment is what i listen to while driving, or home doing chores...

Here are some I have used in the last year for each...Just off the top of my head

WORSHIP...
My Savior My God Aaron Shust
How Great is our God Chris Tomlin
Amazing Grace, my chains are gone Chris Tomlin
How Great thou Art/Above all My arrangement

EVANGELISM/EDIFICATION
Cry out to Jesus Third Day
More Love, More Power
Does anybody hear her Casting Crowns
If We are the Body Casting Crowns

ENTERTAINMENT
Superchick
all the songs from Casting Crowns
Toby Mac
and others on Christian radio...

Do you see the difference?

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

Are there beats that are evil? Definitely! When the beat becomes prominent, over-riding the lyrics and melody so that the words cannot be understood, then it is evil.

Granted I don't listen to CCM, but I *think* most CCM fans can understand the lyrics.

In most of it the beat does over-ride the words, so that the words cannot be understood clearly, and the lyrics are clearly drowned out.

If this is true you'd have a point. Indecipherable lyrics cannot be said to be praising anything.

OT music clearly was not so. The lyrics were always predominant, and the beat was secondary.

How would you know what it sounded like? This sorta thing predates 8 trax ya know.


You make some valid points about commercialism and message centered music. You also make some rather hyper points.

 

[annsni]

Again the question must be asked by every Christian: Where is the line drawn? Where does one stop being a friend of God and start being the enemy of God (James 4:4). The answer is when you start being a friend of the world. And when the world loves your music as much as the world's music you have become the enemy of God. The principle is as simple as that.

Huh?? If someone in the world loves the sound of the music and the style, it's proof that you're an enemy of God?? Could you explain that?? Music is not exclusive to God - and the world loves all kinds of music. That would mean that ALL kinds of music would be evil.

 

[DHK]

Huh?? If someone in the world loves the sound of the music and the style, it's proof that you're an enemy of God?? Could you explain that?? Music is not exclusive to God - and the world loves all kinds of music. That would mean that ALL kinds of music would be evil.

I'd like to explain that. But it might be better to start another thread in another forum on "worldliness." That topic is very broad and touches many areas of our lives, not just music. Many Christians dress in a worldly manner, go to worldly places, (places that Christians ought not to frequent), and in general the world cannot tell them (Christians) apart from the world. When that happens it is a shame. Like Israel, we too are called out as a holy nation, a peculiar people to show forth the praises of him who has called us out of darkness into his marvellous light. We are to be different in every way, and that includes our music. You don't see many people (unsaved) listening or singing: Rock of Ages, What can Wash Away My Sins, When I See the Blood, It is Well With My Soul, Wonderful Grace of Jesus, How Great Thou Art, etc.
Those are sacred songs, hymns. Generally speaking the world hates them, because they testify of Christ.
Jesus said that the world will hate you because you testify of me.
However, does most CCM testify of Christ? IMO, I don't believe that most of it does. A lot of it testifies of self, and much of it sounds just like the world's music--imitating the styles and the sounds of the world--that kind of music that previously was never found in churches among God's people, and for good reason.
What does it mean to be worldly?
What does it mean to be Godly?
Where does one draw the line?

You find that out in your private devotions, and your spiritual walk with God, and you draw the line as closely as possible to God as you can, and as far away from the world as you can. For whosoever shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Trotter]

You don't see many people (unsaved) listening or singing: Rock of Ages, What can Wash Away My Sins, When I See the Blood, It is Well With My Soul, Wonderful Grace of Jesus, How Great Thou Art, etc.

True, they do speak of Christ. But they are also very old and the musicstyle is just as dated. They still hold a powerful message, but many will never hear it.

It is true that CCM sounds a lot like the music of the world. A lot of it could be mistaken easily for mainstream if the words were changed or omited. But this very thing can be a positive.

I listen to WAY-FM. It is a CCM ministry radio station heard in many places across the US and online. I find the songs uplifting and edifying, but these same songs are reaching out to this generation. Lost souls are encountering this music on the airwaves and on the internet and are coming to Christ. Honestly, had they turned the dial and found choral music or Southern Gospel, they would not have even stopped. But they heard something that sounded familiar, and then they listened to the words, and were brought face to face with a Savior.

Not all music may be appropriate for a church service, or at least not all services. I have been in services where "Stomp" was sung and it fit right in. But this was the exception, not the rule.

Many older people have been pleasantly surprised when they discover just what CCM is and what it is about. Many soloist sing CCM songs in our church, and some who are not familiar with CCM ask where the song came from. I have lent out some CDs of CCM artists to these who ask, and all but one of them loved them (the fellow told me, "The songs are nice, but they ain't country enough.").

Yes, some CCM could only be called that if used a very broad definition, but that is only some, not most or all. Even some of music's worst sinners cut a gospel record or two, so anyone can do it. Thankfully there are many who actually do it for the Lord.

A lot of it testifies of self, and much of it sounds just like the world's music--imitating the styles and the sounds of the world--that kind of music that previously was never found in churches among God's people, and for good reason.

The very songs you named were, at one time, contemporary songs of their times, and were looked upon with the same disdain as today's music is by some. That doesn't change their message or their sacredness, nor does it change today's songs into something less than the classics. They are different, not wrong.

Take the words to "Above All", by Michael W. Smith:

Verse 1
Above all powers
Above all kings
Above all nature
And all created things
Above all wisdom
And all the ways of man
You were here
Before the world began

Verse 2
Above all kingdoms
Above all thrones
Above all wonders
The world has ever known
Above all wealth
And treasures of the earth
There's no way to measure
What You're worth

CHORUS
Crucified
Laid behind the stone
You lived to die
Rejected and alone
Like a rose
Trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all

Verse 1

Verse 2

Chorus

Chorus

Like the rose
Trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all

http://www.youtube.com/v/I7Sn5rV6oM0&rel=1

Or "I Can Only Imagine", by MercyMe:

I can only imagine
What it will be like
When I walk
By your side

I can only imagine
What my eyes will see
When your face
Is before me
I can only imagine

[Chorus:]
Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel
Will I dance for you Jesus or in awe of you be still
Will I stand in your presence or to my knees will I fall
Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all
I can only imagine

I can only imagine
When that day comes
And I find myself
Standing in the Son

I can only imagine
When all I will do
Is forever
Forever worship You
I can only imagine

[Chorus]

I can only imagine [x2]

I can only imagine
When all I will do
Is forever, forever worship you

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S70gwFcSK9k

Or "Word of God Speak", also by MercyMe:

I'm finding myself at a loss for words
And the funny thing is it's okay
The last thing I need is to be heard
But to hear what You would say

[CHORUS]
Word of God speak
Would You pour down like rain
Washing my eyes to see
Your majesty
To be still and know
That You're in this place
Please let me stay and rest
In Your holiness
Word of God speak

I'm finding myself in the midst of You
Beyond the music, beyond the noise
All that I need is to be with You
And in the quiet hear Your voice

[REPEAT CHORUS 2x]

I'm finding myself at a loss for words
And the funny thing is it's okay

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4JK_6osCH74

 

[DHK]

I can only imagine
What it will be like
When I walk
By your side

I can only imagine
What my eyes will see
When your face
Is before me
I can only imagine

I know I am going to be shouted down for this, but in my opinion this is one of the most shallow songs I have ever heard. If it were not for the chorus and a couple of other verses, that is, if the one listening on the radio (or whatever), had only heard these first two verses what would he think:
1. That the woship would be directed to Allah, Buddha, or even to Princess Dianna? Who knows? One cannot tell. The desire is simply expressed: "I can only imagine..." That leaves the door open for many thing. There is no mention made of Jesus Christ, nor any theology that relates to Christ at all. It is a love song that could relate to anything. It is very shallow.

2. "I can only imagine what my eyes will see.. (when my wife comes home??) or whatever else. What else are we supposed to imagine. The same thing applies to this verse. Nothing refers it to Christ. It is so shallow.

3. What about those so-called irrelevant hymns that don't get in touch with mainstream Christianity today? Maybe the question ought to be asked: Why doesn't mainstream Christianity relate to those hymns? That is the real question here. As far as the unsaved are concerned, I challenge you to show me one instance in the Bible where music was used for evangelism. It isn't. Music is for the believer. It is used for worship and for worship only. It has no place in the unbeliever's life, unless you are an idolater. It was never intended to be for entertainment. It was intended for worship. Study the Word of God. You will find the purposes of music there, but you won't find entertainment, nor will you find evangelism as purposes for music.

How far removed from mainstream are those hymns and how relevant must they be compared to today's songs.
Handel's Messiah was obviously written in the time of Handel, composed in the summer of 1741. Is it relevant today? Indeed it is.

We have hymns written whose lyrics have been put to the music of Bethoven. Bethoven lived and wrote in the first decade of the 1800's. We still sing hymns put to his music today. Irrelevant. No.

A Mighty Fortress is Our God, written by Martin Luther.
Luther lived from 1483-1546, and yet this song is still relevant to today. They don't change with time. They are what we might call timeless.

O Little Town of Bethlehem was written in 1867 by Philip Brooks.

"But I want something more relevant for today's society, today's culture." That is just an excuse.

Godly music glorifies God both in its lyrics and in its music. The messenger (music) must fit the message (lyrics). Both are important to God.