This nation, founded under the principles of the Holy Bible, should have laws to refect the morality of our Creator Himself!
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Should the government prohibit same-sex marriage?
- Thread starter Felipe Rios
- Start date
It has not been "founded under the principles of the Holy Bible." We have a secular Constitution and the nation was set up not to prefer religion over irreligion, or any specific religion over another. The government was created to be neutral toward religion.
Again, you have ignored questions you don't like. I will put the questions in a different color to catch your attention. Let me ask this one again, because this will clarify the issue for you:
You want to make same-sex marriage illegal. So if you are successful:
- How does that change people who experience same-sex attraction?
- How does that prevent sin?
Well, you snagged everybody there. This society is so much more stable than it was 3, 4, 10... years ago. Ain't it?
Current American societal instability is not because of marriage (heterosexual or homosexual), but because of political turmoil and a culture that has lost its commitment to facts (objective reality).
Yet you said it "brings more stability to society," did you not?
In general, all marriage brings more stability to society than promiscuity or disconnection from long-term relationships. Relationships and homes are usually strengthen by a marital commitment, since it creates a better environment for raising children. It is a long-term stability.
One of the main reasons God hates divorce is that it is contrary to human flourishing and damages society for the long-term.
God has always strictly forbidden any homosexual/lesbian practive in the scriptures, and now under the New Coveannt, we are back to God just seeing as legit one man one woman, do you agree with God on that?
Homosexual practice is forbidden and contrary to our intended nature. One of the many results of the fall is that humankind has been corrupted in both nature and nurture, so that humankind experiences inherent passions (heterosexual and homosexual) that are not appropriate to exercise in a righteous manner. These passions/desires are different from lusting, for lusting is a mental activity that imagines what the fulfillment of those passions/desires might be, and reduces the object of lust to merely a means to an end instead of a human created in God's image.
NOW, back to the questions you keep avoiding. I have also added a few more:
You want to make same-sex marriage illegal. So if you are successful:
- How does that change people who experience same-sex attraction?
- How does that prevent sins of action and sins of lust?
- What about laws and penalties against adultery?
- How does passing a human law please God if it doesn't lead to a change in the fundamental sinful behavior, especially since God has already stated His will?
is it always better to obey God or not? God strictly defined for humanity what he sees as legit marriage, and same sex union is NOT in he benefit of society!
And same sex relationships is still sodomy. correct?
You are changing the subject, desperately trying to avoid answering my questions. This is a long-running pattern of yours. You claim you want to do something of a tangible and legal nature. If so, then let's actually talk about that. I'll make the questions larger so you cannot pretend not to see them:
You want to make same-sex marriage illegal. So if you are successful:
- How does that change people who experience same-sex attraction?
- How does that prevent sins of action and sins of lust?
- What about laws and penalties against adultery?
- How does passing a human law please God if it doesn't lead to a change in the fundamental sinful behavior, especially since God has already stated His will?
It would NOT be better for society, as see Apsotle viewpoint on this in Romans 1. You really don't see God upset when we officially gave the saunction now to OK same sex marriages? Are we to than not have any laws in regards to enforcing proper morality then?
Paul was not concerned with passing laws -- that's the subject of this conversation, remember?
I don't think God is terribly concerned about laws that do not make any difference in regard to sin and redemption. The sin issue has been dealt with in Christ. God is calling people to Himself for them to be redeemed under the New Covenant.
How do laws change a sinner's heart toward God?
You really do not think God wants usto have moral laws to regulate behavior passed in this nation!
You have shifted the question from the context. I do not think we should make laws against lust, heterosexual or homosexual. I do not think we should make laws against fornication, heterosexual or homosexual.
How will passing laws against those things secure righteousness?
You still are quite cowardly in that you will not answer my basic questions. That's quite telling.
Neither will you address mine, as you seem to be stating that we cannot have laws to reguate Biblical morality!
I constantly address your questions. I also ask your questions directly relevant to the issue at hand so that you can explain your thinking. The questions I ask are also designed to make you take a stand on a particular point, for or against, for you love to go around the mulberry bush, making unsubstantiated pronouncements about things you have not investigated and people who interact with you.
So I will deal with this question, and then you need to deal with the same questions I have been asking repeatedly.
(1) I have never stated that "we cannot have laws" like you are advocating. We can certainly have laws like you refuse to specify, but we probably shouldn't want them. I can't say for sure because you want actually answer the questions regarding those very laws you would propose. You are afraid to take a stand.
(2) You have specified "Biblical morality" instead of morality in a general sense. Again, I don't know what you mean by that because you refuse to tell us, so let me set up a working definition of biblical morality for us to use.
For the purposes of my comments, biblical morality consists of the following:
- The requirement to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Jesus, the Twelve, and Paul (among others) alone.
- Do not engage in idolatry.
- Do not use the name of God trivially, or use the name of God to manipulate others to do evil.
- To honor the God by a day of rest/worship each week.
- To love and respect one's parents, and the elderly in general.
- Not to murder people physically, or with words, attitudes, anger, name-calling or demeaning language (the slur "Dims" is getting a lot of play around here), or grudges. As far as it is up to you, make every attempt to reconcile, even at the expense of the most sacred aspects of worship (Matthew 5:23-24).
- Do not commit adultery, engage in lust, or any sexual activity that deviates from intentions of the created order. Love and cherish your spouse (if you have one), and as much as it depends upon you, do not break the covenant of marriage.
- Do not lie or try to deceive in any way. Let your character be such that your words can be trusted without reservation or having to manipulate others by excessive appeals to authority.
- Look after the needs of your neighbor, even people who have set themselves against you. If it would be helpful, give them what they need from your own possessions and wealth, including giving them your time, a listening ear, and your full attention.
- Do not hate your enemies or hold them in contempt. Remember that God is at work in the world and He may turn that hearts of even your enemies to Himself. Instead of hating people who have made themselves your enemies, love them in word and deed, knowing that God has bless you with His love.
- Be content with what you have been given. Do not lust after money, sex, power, fame, or gratification of your ego.
- Be complete in Christ.
It is not the business of a secular government to regulate Biblical morality, except in the most superficial sense like murder, elder abuse, rape, dishonesty in a civil court, for all of those fall into the category of generally accepted morality even among people who do not know God.
Moreover, it is nearly impossible for a human government to do so. For instance, no government can prevent someone from lusting, or more generally, coveting.
Moreover, history has demonstrated over and over than governments which presume to hold people accountable to what they call biblical morality will always engage in persecution of religious minorities. Baptists used to be persecuted by governments over issues like infant baptism and daring to study the Bible and worship outside of the official religious organizations -- the Massachusetts Bay Colony is one example from American history and it currently happens all over the world.
So yes, I am opposed to passing laws to regulate Biblical morality.
NOW, time for you to answer my questions. I'll put them in a cheerful blue for you. Don't be a coward:
You say you want to make same-sex marriage illegal. If you are successful:
- How does that change people who experience same-sex attraction?
- How does that prevent sins of action and sins of lust?
- What about laws and penalties against adultery?
- How does passing a human law please God if it doesn't lead to a change in the fundamental sinful behavior, especially since God has already stated His will?
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Very simple question, does God approve of same sex marriages or not?
I have been very clear and candid with you. I wish you would be the same.
God does not condone homosexual acts, not does God condone promiscuity, or sexual relationships out of marriage.
We need to separate marriage from sexual acts. The two are not necessarily connected.
- A loving life partnership between two people is not a sin, whether or not it is called marriage.
- Homosexual sexual acts are sinful.
- Promiscuity, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is sin.
- Sexual activity outside of marriage (a loving life partnership) is sin.
- Same sex marriage does not represent God's ideal.
- Many heterosexual marriages do not represent God's ideal.
- God knows exactly what is intended between two people of the same sex who marry each other. They will be judged on their knowledge and intent.
Here they are again in pink. I've also made them a little larger because you keep "overlooking" them:
You say you want to make same-sex marriage illegal. If you are successful:
- How does that change people who experience same-sex attraction?
- How does that prevent sins of action and sins of lust?
- What about laws and penalties against adultery?
- How does passing a human law please God if it doesn't lead to a change in the fundamental sinful behavior, especially since God has already stated His will?
Alone or in an assembly. But not in the same way all those guys did.
Peoples' views of morality matter enough to force others by threat to uphold, but God's doesn't? Okay.
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QUICK NOTE: I knocked out a very quick definition of biblical morality since Yeshua1 was being quite unclear with his terms, so I needed to nail down a quick summary of "biblical morality" for the purposes of discussion. There is undoubtably more to add, some things that can interpreted in different ways, and so on. It is not mean to be an exhaustive or definitive statement since it was created on the fly in about five minutes by going through the Ten Commandments and the part of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. My interpretation was also influenced by the teaching of Jesus to love one's neighbor as oneself.
Labor unions CAN be quite evil. We must be careful about what is done in our name. Solomon did a lot of evil things -- have you not read the scripture? And the idea that "competition" or capitalism is inherently evil is false. Capitalism CAN be evil, if persons who participate in it do so to destroy others for their own gain. Capitalism can be engaged in honorably, if persons who participate in it participle ethically and for the good of human flourishing. The genius of capitalism is that it helps regulate the evil impulses of fallen humanity while delivering goods and services that can potentially promote human flourishing. Capitalism must obviously be regulated in various way to prevent things like a slave trade, prostitution and drug rings, etc.
Yes, obviously. But I was covering "biblical morality" in very broad terms, both Old and New Testament, as some governments historically have done. It is not merely, 'New Testament morality.'
I understand your point, but again, this is not necessarily 'New Testament morality.' Furthermore, we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, nor are we to disregarding the Old Testament principles about rest and recreation, combined with worship.
It is part of the broader principle of honoring parents. We are to honor our own parents, as well as loving our neighbor and his/her parents. It seems strange that you would object.
Do you respect her as someone who is created in the image of God and as a person of value on that basis? Do you love her even if you consider her your enemy? If not, that's a problem in your life.
That is contempt and assuming the worst of others.
I'm not viewing anyone with contempt (at least without repented rather quickly), nor assuming the worst of others.
Jesus could do it righteously. We struggle with it. Calling Democrats "Dims" or "Demoncrats" is wrong, just as much as calling Republicans "Reprobates" or nastier names that I will not repeat here.
That's not a grudge, that's church discipline.
That is done in the specific context of a game, not in regular life. You are not intending to deceive that person so that they make poor life choices. Just as an actor on the stage or screen who is representing a character does not intend to deceive the audience. He is telling a story.
Faulty people can be redeemed. Do you support prostitution as well? She is not there because of lying or prostitution, she is there because of faith.
What I was trying to express on the fly is the practice in the New Testament times of swearing by the Temple or the gold on the Temple; or today when someone claims to "swear on a stack of Bibles," swear by their mother's grave, or on their own life, "if I'm lyin', I'm dyin'."
Obviously not. You are trying to make laws out of the vision of the Christian life that Jesus laid out in the Sermon on the Mount. It is a life that is supposed to be lived interactively with the leading of the Spirit, not legalistically.
Apparently you haven't been following the conversation since I am the one claiming that we should NOT make laws requiring "Biblical morality." Your question is for Yeshua1, the one who claims to want this.
How is that loving someone in word and deed? Moreover, we should be very careful about voting for "our interests." We need to vote for justice, fairness, and what will be most helpful to others, not just our own interests. We should be voting for Kingdom principles.
Again, that's not necessarily loving someone in word and deed.
You've really twisted the idea of the 10th commandment, "you shall not covet."
Labor unions CAN be quite evil. We must be careful about what is done in our name. Solomon did a lot of evil things -- have you not read the scripture? And the idea that "competition" or capitalism is inherently evil is false. Capitalism CAN be evil, if persons who participate in it do so to destroy others for their own gain. Capitalism can be engaged in honorably, if persons who participate in it participle ethically and for the good of human flourishing. The genius of capitalism is that it helps regulate the evil impulses of fallen humanity while delivering goods and services that can potentially promote human flourishing. Capitalism must obviously be regulated in various way to prevent things like a slave trade, prostitution and drug rings, etc.
You have twisted my words. Moreover, you seem to have forgotten that there is a Judge at the end of the age Who will mete out punishment and reward to all who draw breath. It is not our place to use the sword to try to force people to love each other -- as if that would work anyway. But it is the calling of the church, the disciples of Jesus, to call people to account. It is definitely not the role of the government.