Should we bring unbelievers to Church?

[Molly]

Here is a good link:

www.biblebb.com/files/pdc.htm

You have to admit there are weakneses of this kind of philosophy of ministry. Anyone reading this with an open mind can see the problems with it.

Molly

 

[Molly]

Oooops..try this:

www.biblebb.com/files/pdc.htm

 

[MTA]

First, let me say that it was not my intent to insult anyone's intelligence with the "brick and mortar" comment.

Dr. Griffin said it very well:
The church service is to worship, to edify, to strengthen, to teach, to fellowship and yes, if an unsaved is there (we are open to the public) to share the Gospel. We ALSO will have our "own" unsaved - our children and grandchildren - so must never neglect the message of the Gospel!

A ship pulls into harbor for two reasons; to offload its cargo, and to take on provisions for the next voyage.

 

[Daniel David]

SBC, perhaps you could explain what you mean by "a clear presentation of the gospel". Does this mean the simple facts of the gospel? Does this "clear presentation" demand that people respond in faith by believing Christ as Lord? Your thoughts on this might clear up some things.

 

[USN2Pulpit]

I can't believe how technical this is getting.

1) We all know that the church is not the building.

2) There are different kinds of services that take place at the church building.

Would I invite my unsaved friend/neighbor/family member to church? You bet I would!

I pray that in every church building and with every local church body the Word of God is taught and preached. And where the Word is taught and preached, surely God will work on the hearts of man - both saved and unsaved.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by Molly:
Church growth should happen like this....believers who love and adore God go to worship Him in a corporate setting....they are equipped to go out and share Christ with a lost world...in the marketplace,schools,homes,etc. Others see the power of God's forgiveness in our lives as we live godly lives,separate from the world....we,as a result of God loving us, love all people and are ready to give an answer for the hope that is in us. God works in their(unsaved) hearts,drawing them to Himself if God so desires,they seek after Him(only because of God's irresistible grace)....They come to church,are baptized and then begin the equipping process.

God's ways are pretty clear in scripture. His church is to be the pillar and support of truth,He desires for the believers to worship Him in spirit and Truth....Of course we welcome all those who are desiring to know God and will answer any questions....but to make church appealing to the unsaved....very backwards,I must say.

We should be out there being authentic to Christ's call on our lives,living godly before a lost world,sharing God's word as the answer to ALL of life's issues...We need to know the Word to be able to share it. Asking the lost to *come to church* is a major cop out,IMO.

Bottom line,the church is for believers who love all people and hope for all to come to love God. We should hold to the standard of teaching God's Word,(expositorally),reverent worship,spiritual depth being an emphasis. This is in contrary to what the world wants....less scripture,more *felt needs* being met,less preaching(keep it short and light),more music,drama,etc(not that these things can not be okay at times) and distractions.....I could go on and on....The church should not be what unbelievers feel more comfortable with. Many churches are making this fundamental mistake and it is very sad.

When you miss the top button,everything else is off,too!

Molly

I would agree.

 

[Molly]

Somebody agrees with me! Yahoo!

Thanks!

Molly

 

[amixedupmom]

If you never invited a unsaved person to church, how are they going to get saved ?

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Lea:
If you never invited a unsaved person to church, how are they going to get saved ?

Is that a serious question or sarcasm?

 

[Molly]

Originally posted by Lea:
If you never invited a unsaved person to church, how are they going to get saved ?

Have you read the whole thread? God calls us to share Christ with a lost world wherever we are,they see our godly lives,we share the gospel and they can be saved.

Do you think church is the only place people can be saved?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Molly:
You have to admit there are weakneses of this kind of philosophy of ministry. Anyone reading this with an open mind can see the problems with it.

Read the website and realize that New Jersey is a long way from Lake Forest, California! The author evidently has never been there, talked with the staff, seen the intensive evangelism that is anything BUT easy-believism.

Saddleback is designed on discipleship and growth of believers. I am amazed to see the depth of study and training - far beyond the Hyles 1-2-3-pray-after-me or the Graham crusade parroting a prayer. Real outreach. Real sharing of the Gospel.

Hey, I see the weaknesses in a church that has programs designed to draw in the unsaved. But that is the "hook" to serious evangelism. The "church" itself meets in other services, small groups, etc.

The more I see of the church BEHIND the pzazz of Saddleback's hoopla, the better I like what they are doing. They are doing what a good church DOES + they are offering a tool for outreach to thousands in their special services designed for the unsaved.

 

[Molly]

Dr. Bob,

I know for a fact that many(pastors) have visited Saddleback to see what was going on and they have claimed the same concerns...the preaching was weak and the gospel was watered down. I really do not think these articles were written without looking at the program in an indepth manner. Please give them a little more credit than that. I am not out to get this particular church...I just hate to see so many churches jump on the band wagon and *do* church this way,when scripture has everything we need. It is a church growth *program* with some good things in it,but overall,very weak biblically. IMO.

It is okay to disagree. I do respect what you have to say on many issues. Thanks for your input.

I am very suprised you are okay with this,esp knowing your views on so many other things. I know your son is pretty involved in it,so maybe you are more open minded with these concepts. I happen to see great concerns with it.

But,back to the original question...lost people can come to church any time they like!

 

[LarryN]

I know for a fact that many(pastors) have visited Saddleback to see what was going on and they have claimed the same concerns...the preaching was weak and the gospel was watered down.

And many pastors have visited Saddleback, left their preconceived human notions of "what church should look like" at the door, and come away with a renewed zeal and effectiveness of ministry.

I really do not think these articles were written without looking at the program in an indepth manner.

I really do not think these articles were written without a good measure of all-too-human judgmentalism, jealousy and Phariseeism.

...I just hate to see so many churches jump on the band wagon and *do* church this way,when scripture has everything we need.

That's right!: As we are all aware, Scripture establishs one particular order & style of worship..........................now, if I can just find that passage again..............

It is a church growth *program* with some good things in it,but overall,very weak biblically. IMO.

Yes, we all know that being Biblical and seeing growth occuring in the church must be mutually exclusive.

I am very suprised you are okay with this,esp knowing your views on so many other things.

Yes, Dr. Bob, please explain to everyone how you can be comfortable with methods & means of evangelism that result in the salvation & discipling of lost individuals?

I happen to see great concerns with it.

Translation: "That's not the way I was brought up or trained to win the lost."

...lost people can come to church any time they like!

That is, as long as they "fit into" the 1950's time-warp model of worship that still characterizes so many IFB churchs today.

 

[All about Grace]

www.biblebb.com/files/pdc.htm

One does not have to be very bright to see the illogical jumps this article makes.

Molly, if you cannot connect the dots on your own, let me know and I will spend the unnecessary time to show the blatant errors of this article. Based on your previous comments, I am going to assume you cannot see the fallacious arguments.

And would you mind answering the question I raised above. Do you believe it is appropriate for the people of God (church) to plan events / gatherings where they can bring their unsaved friends, family, etc. to hear a gospel presentation?

DD: perhaps you could explain what you mean by "a clear presentation of the gospel". Does this mean the simple facts of the gospel? Does this "clear presentation" demand that people respond in faith by believing Christ as Lord? Your thoughts on this might clear up some things.

I am sure whatever I suggest is a clear gospel presentation will not be "clear" enough for you. I do not believe a person must be able to articulate or understand the implications of hamartology, soteriology, ecclesiology, the virgin conception, total depravity, irresistable grace, and the last judgment in order to believe in Christ.

I echo much of what Dr. Bob and LarryN state in their posts as well.

Unlike Molly, I do believe churches should be evangelistic in what they do. Guess what? No evangelism - no discipleship. No evangelism - no fellowship. No evangelism - no ministry. No evangelism - no corporate worship. The Great Commission begins with going and telling.

 

[Siegfried]

I'm going to try to state the central issue here as concisely as possible to differentiate my opinion (and what seems to be Molly's, as well) from the pro-Saddleback side.

The biblical pattern is that the purpose of the weekly Sunday gathering of believers is edification, fellowship and worship, not outreach to the lost.

Does that mean you can't have a service in the church building that targets the lost? No.

Does that mean you can't invite unbelievers to the weekly gathering of believers? No.

Does it mean you should never preach a sermon that calls for people to trust Christ for salvation in the weekly gathering of believers? No.

Does it mean that there should be a weekly service for believers? Yes.

Does this have to be Sunday morning? No. My understanding is that some churches in the NT probably met on Sunday evenings because the Christians worked all day. I do have some concerns about making the seeker service Sunday morning because in our church culture many people think they've done their duty if they show up Sunday morning. If that Sunday morning service is evangelistically focused, then that segment of the church is skipping out on the edification-oriented service that they need. (On the other hand, maybe those people really need to be genuinely saved, so evangelistic messages might do them good. Still, I think 1 Corinthians indicates that it is the edification-oriented meeting that draws unbelievers to salvation.)

Is a cell group-oriented edification ministry to believers a valid replacement for a weekly meeting of the whole church on Sunday? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt it. Certainly this model is inconsistent with the biblical pattern. Does Saddleback, for example, have a weekly meeting of the whole church that is intended primarily to edify the church body? Although they list six weekend meetings on their weekly calendar, it appears to me that there is no distinct purpose that differentiates them.

 

[Molly]

Yes,SBC,there have been occasions that our church has had completely evangelistic type events. But,our Corporate worship is for the edification and worship of God for the believing body of Christ.

We are bing equipped to go out and share Christ,making a difference in the lives of others by loving them,ministering to them,and sharing the reality of God's Word with them....we just don't depend on our church(or pastor) to do it in a Sunday morning service. I appreciate that about our church. Hopefully some of these seeker sensitive churches are doing this,also,but if they are completely evangelistic in EVERYTHING they do,they tend to go down the pragmatic road. (Whatever works)

 

[amixedupmom]

Originally posted by Molly:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lea:
If you never invited a unsaved person to church, how are they going to get saved ?

Have you read the whole thread? God calls us to share Christ with a lost world wherever we are,they see our godly lives,we share the gospel and they can be saved.

Do you think church is the only place people can be saved? </font>[/QUOTE]Nope I don't. I do know that it helps to be in one.

Originally posted by Daniel David:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lea:
If you never invited a unsaved person to church, how are they going to get saved ?

Is that a serious question or sarcasm? </font>[/QUOTE]Ouch.

My comment was one of support, not scarasm.

Sometimes we are scared to invite or even witness. I know this because I am. Asking a person to church opens up the Dialogue for them. Then you can figure out if they are ready. A casual invite to services plants the seed of wonder into thier minds. And the LORD let's it grow.


Note: I'm responding to these two posts not the rest of the thread so if i've said something else someone else has said I apologize.

 

[All about Grace]

The biblical pattern is that the purpose of the weekly Sunday gathering of believers is edification, fellowship and worship, not outreach to the lost.

No the biblical DESCRIPTION of what happened in the NT church involved these elements. What is also obvious is that people were being regularly and daily saved. We have no basis to say that these conversions were occurring within or outside of the gatherings. Furthermore the Acts accounts merely describe what was happening. They do not define a how the church will function following this particular era. Obviously things were already changing within the churches Paul established.

Does that mean you can't have a service in the church building that targets the lost? No.

Does that mean you can't invite unbelievers to the weekly gathering of believers? No.

Does it mean you should never preach a sermon that calls for people to trust Christ for salvation in the weekly gathering of believers? No.

You have justified seeker services.

Does it mean that there should be a weekly service for believers? Yes.

Does this have to be Sunday morning? No.

Still no problems then.

I do have some concerns about making the seeker service Sunday morning because in our church culture many people think they've done their duty if they show up Sunday morning. If that Sunday morning service is evangelistically focused, then that segment of the church is skipping out on the edification-oriented service that they need.

This statement is solely based on your own speculation and culture. It is not necessarily true across the board.

Is a cell group-oriented edification ministry to believers a valid replacement for a weekly meeting of the whole church on Sunday? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt it. Certainly this model is inconsistent with the biblical pattern.

Actually the Acts accounts are very HOME oriented as well as regular gatherings. It is definitely not INCONSISTENT with the biblical pattern. If anything, the small/home group format is more consistent with the biblical pattern.

Does Saddleback, for example, have a weekly meeting of the whole church that is intended primarily to edify the church body?

Their believers services have always been designed exclusively for edification. Warren spent 2 1/2 years teaching verse-by-verse thru Romans. I am not sure what they are doing at this time. They have recently been strongly emphasizing their home groups, which are discipleship focused.

As one can observe from your post and my previous points, the seeker-oriented service is not the problem then. It is the frequency of it and the time of it. When one truly examines the criticisms, they begin to crumble.

 

[All about Grace]

Molly: there have been occasions that our church has had completely evangelistic type events.

So your church does believe in seeker-focused events. You just differ on the frequency of them. You prefer occasional events and others prefer weekly. You tell me which one more clearly lines up with the NT example???

our Corporate worship is for the edification and worship of God for the believing body of Christ.

As it should be. But don't fault those who prefer other times and formats for the same purpose.

We are bing equipped to go out and share Christ,making a difference in the lives of others by loving them,ministering to them,and sharing the reality of God's Word with them....we just don't depend on our church(or pastor) to do it in a Sunday morning service.

Sounds similar to most "seeker churches" I have observed. Again, you have misconceptions based upon what you have HEARD and not what you have experienced or observed firsthand.

Hopefully some of these seeker sensitive churches are doing this,also,but if they are completely evangelistic in EVERYTHING they do,they tend to go down the pragmatic road. (Whatever works)

Thank you for your opinion. We will continue to wait for the evidence to back such claims.

 

[All about Grace]

I just glanced at Saddleback's website and found in about 5 minutes 30+ different discipleship opportunities offered between July-December. This does not even include the thousands of different small groups they offer.

Stay with the facts people.