No one trusts "two Anglican necromancers." The falseness of the assertion aside, the beauty of God's preserved word in modern times is that you can see for yourself what he said ... If you take the time to learn Greek. If, on the other hand, you prefer to complain and whine, you probably won't learn what God said, nor how to live in a modern world desparately in need of God's truth.
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Should we learn Greek?
- Thread starter Phillip
- Start date
I think that is an idea I would find desirable. Unfortunately, many of us attend churches pastored by men who don't know Koine Greek.
I also think it might be a good idea for churches with the resources to teach spanish. Like it or not, a growing percentage of the people around us speak spanish as their first language.
Also, the immigration problem could be greatly diminished if the migrants took the true gospel and its transforming power back to Mexico/Latin America. The object of the gospel is not an earthly kingdom nor social reform... however, hearts changed by Christ do change the society around them.
At the risk of discussing Phillip's question rather than continuing the KJVO/anti-KJVO rant... 
Phillip, I think this is an excellent suggestion, though pulling it off might be a little hard (but that's not an excuse to not try). I would also urge caution in some of the rhetoric supporting the idea. There are some extreme posts on this thread that imply that a Christian cannot know the New Testament without being able to read the Greek. A consistent and logical extension of that argument would be that no one can know God's Word without being able to READ Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic (it's not all written in Greek!). While not devaluing language study (I believe any language study can do some enlightening, even if it's only Spanish or something like that), is there anyone here (regardless of what particular version you may support) who really believes that a devoted Christian who only knows English and prayerfully studies the word in English cannot garner a deep understanding of God and His Word?
Another caution is that knowing a "little Greek" might be more dangerous than not knowing any. Some people get themselves in trouble wrongly applying what they think they know. "Analytical Fallacies" by D. A. Carson (a real Greek scholar) is a good eye-opener in that area. The cure for this is not necessarily not studying languages, but being self-aware of one's degree of expertise (rudimentary, elementary, etc.).
Phillip, I think this is an excellent suggestion, though pulling it off might be a little hard (but that's not an excuse to not try). I would also urge caution in some of the rhetoric supporting the idea. There are some extreme posts on this thread that imply that a Christian cannot know the New Testament without being able to read the Greek. A consistent and logical extension of that argument would be that no one can know God's Word without being able to READ Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic (it's not all written in Greek!). While not devaluing language study (I believe any language study can do some enlightening, even if it's only Spanish or something like that), is there anyone here (regardless of what particular version you may support) who really believes that a devoted Christian who only knows English and prayerfully studies the word in English cannot garner a deep understanding of God and His Word?
Another caution is that knowing a "little Greek" might be more dangerous than not knowing any. Some people get themselves in trouble wrongly applying what they think they know. "Analytical Fallacies" by D. A. Carson (a real Greek scholar) is a good eye-opener in that area. The cure for this is not necessarily not studying languages, but being self-aware of one's degree of expertise (rudimentary, elementary, etc.).
Just who is 'judging' the Word of God? Do you not do the same when you 'judge' for yourself that ONLY the KJV is the correct reading? Even more so, you judge without meting out correct judgement because you are ignorant of the facts about the transmission of the Bible, about the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic languages from which the Bible was translated, about the historic Christian doctrines of inspiration (theopneustos), inerrancy, infallibility, and illumination, and about how various translations can be when it comes from one language to another language. How dare you say that we judge with partiality when you do so much the same! Shame!Originally posted by av1611jim:
I lose NOTHING.
Why? Because I do not question the Book.
I don't NEED to question (judge) it. Rather, it JUDGES me and my walk in HIM.
In HIS service;
Jim
Not to be picking or nagging, but it is "Exegetical Fallacies" by Carson to which you refer (unless this is a new book I am not familiar with). I heartily concur with your recommendation, and in fact, your whole post. This board too often provide ample evidence of the old saying "A little learning (of Greek) is a dangerous thing."
I believe that the very first step in studying the Bible should be reading the New Testament, and if you can't read Greek, you can't read the New Testament—all you can read is a translation of it! And from my point of view—that just doesn’t cut it.
^^^
rlvaughn,
Thank you. I had gotten off the subject, although now I am glad that I have said the things I had said.
In no way did I say that because one does not know any of the biblical languages, one cannot fully understand the Word of God. Learning another language is a tool that one can use, and which one should pursue if one desires to. As the KJV translators said-- in their wisdom-- a multitude of English translations would be profitable to the common English reader of the Word of God. This is why the doctrine of illumination is important: God intended that His Word be known in other languages. This is why the revelatory gift of tongues was given to the early church (it has ceased since then, although I know some may want to debate that point ). Once a believer trusts Christ, the Holy Spirit gives 'spiritual' eyes (sorry for the crude example) to the believer once that believer begins to hear, read, and understand the mind of God through the Word of God. 'Tis great to know a great God!
rlvaughn,
Thank you. I had gotten off the subject, although now I am glad that I have said the things I had said.
In no way did I say that because one does not know any of the biblical languages, one cannot fully understand the Word of God. Learning another language is a tool that one can use, and which one should pursue if one desires to. As the KJV translators said-- in their wisdom-- a multitude of English translations would be profitable to the common English reader of the Word of God. This is why the doctrine of illumination is important: God intended that His Word be known in other languages. This is why the revelatory gift of tongues was given to the early church (it has ceased since then, although I know some may want to debate that point
). Once a believer trusts Christ, the Holy Spirit gives 'spiritual' eyes (sorry for the crude example) to the believer once that believer begins to hear, read, and understand the mind of God through the Word of God. 'Tis great to know a great God!That's no mere claim. That's absolute fact.
Since the KJVO's insist that only their translation is to be the sole judge and jury of "what saith the Lord", your position clearly refutes KJVOism.
It's very amusing when I hear a KJVOist talk about contradiction of position, leaving it rather clear to everyone how damaging, devisive, and evil the false doctrine of KJVOism is.
If it means that I must adhere to a false doctrine, count me out.
No one has ever done so. But again, your very words refute KJVOism: If you PERSONALLY think God wants you to adhere only to one translation and disregard all others, including its source texts, then go for it. But do not tro to impose you rpreference on anyone else.
Yes, it is. I'll trust God to reveal what he said in His word. His word does not say that the KJV, or any other translation, is the sole authority. Hence, for you to espouse that view as mandatory for all Christians is false doctrine, and unscriptural. If you want to follow false doctrine, hey, that's between you and God, isn't it?
I have started the process of trying to learn some Greek on my own. I'm using Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek. My goals, at least for now, are: (1) learn vocabulary and pronunciation so that I can read technical commentaries with less struggle;(2)learn some basic grammar so that I can follow their arguments with a better level of understanding (3) learn enough to make better use of the searching capabilities in BibleWorks.
Andy
Andy
I shortened your statement to keep repeating info down, but I do want to refer to your specific post above.Originally posted by rlvaughn:
At the risk of discussing Phillip's question rather than continuing the KJVO/anti-KJVO rant...
Phillip, I think this is an excellent suggestion, though pulling it off might be a little hard (but that's not an excuse to not try). I would also urge caution in some of the rhetoric supporting the idea. Another caution is that knowing a "little Greek" might be more dangerous than not knowing any. Some people get themselves in trouble wrongly applying what they think they know.
Both points are well taken and I agree. I think when people say that you really cannot understand the Bible unless you have read it in Greek (NT); they are exagerating and what they really mean is that "Reading the NT in Greek provides an experience that is quite unique."
People have a tendency to go over-board some on the way they speak here and if you temper down what is being said, I think you get the real truth. Yes, I do agree, it is NOT good to make anybody feel like they MUST learn Greek in order to study the Bible; but a unique experience is available to those who wish to engage in the difficult task of real Greek scholarship.
But, it must also be tempered with the fact that it does require a good understanding of Greek. Greek, at first, appears to be an easy language, when in reality all of the multiple tenses and words which are "almost synonymous, but not quite" make it really a quite difficult language to get a good grasp on.
I think that both of these ideas should be taught to any group who wants to learn Greek.
Plain Old Bill
New Member
It can never hurt a Christian to learn Biblical languages.
I shortened your statement to keep repeating info down, but I do want to refer to your specific post above.Originally posted by Phillip:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rlvaughn:
At the risk of discussing Phillip's question rather than continuing the KJVO/anti-KJVO rant...
Phillip, I think this is an excellent suggestion, though pulling it off might be a little hard (but that's not an excuse to not try). I would also urge caution in some of the rhetoric supporting the idea. Another caution is that knowing a "little Greek" might be more dangerous than not knowing any. Some people get themselves in trouble wrongly applying what they think they know.
Both points are well taken and I agree. I think when people say that you really cannot understand the Bible unless you have read it in Greek (NT); they are exagerating and what they really mean is that "Reading the NT in Greek provides an experience that is quite unique."
People have a tendency to go over-board some on the way they speak here and if you temper down what is being said, I think you get the real truth. Yes, I do agree, it is NOT good to make anybody feel like they MUST learn Greek in order to study the Bible; but a unique experience is available to those who wish to engage in the difficult task of real Greek scholarship.
But, it must also be tempered with the fact that it does require a good understanding of Greek. Greek, at first, appears to be an easy language, when in reality all of the multiple tenses and words which are "almost synonymous, but not quite" make it really a quite difficult language to get a good grasp on.
I think that both of these ideas should be taught to any group who wants to learn Greek. </font>[/QUOTE]__________________________________________________
Phillip and Mr. Vaughn;
You fellers' comments are reasonable, intelligent, and refreshing. Thank you both for your input in this discussion.
As to the OP; I see no reason why Greek should/would not be taught to any group who wants it. What I get so "hot-under-the-collar" about is the notion that one cannot have a sound doctrinal understanding of Scripture without studying the "greek". And when I call that position on the carpet, I get accused of bringing in the KJVo thing, which I did not. Both of you, here, seem to agree, in that one should be careful of going from one extreme to the other. My "rants" on this thread demonstrate one extreme while many replies to those "rants" are equally demonstrative of the other extreme. Thanks guys for your reasonable comments on this subject.
In another thread, I mentioned Dwight Moody. He was known for using nothing but his Bible and a dictionary. Nobody can refute the effectiveness of his multi-continental influence and fruits. He is the example I hold out for my position. It is NOT necessary to know the "greek" for effective study, knowledge, preaching, application of Scripture.
Strangely, nobody addressed this obvious fact in that thread. (BTW, that thread also addressed the "Greek" issue)
Perhaps someone will address that point here.
In HIS service;
Jim
FYI; I apologize for "going off at the mouth" in previous posts in this thread.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Why would a church hire a pastor who has not even learned how to read the New Testament??? That is worse than a school hiring a man who can not read English to teach classes on Shakespeare’s writing!!!
Why would a church hire a pastor who has not even learned how to read the New Testament??? That is worse than a school hiring a man who can not read English to teach classes on Shakespeare’s writing!!!
Rightly or wrongly, men with formal training/higher education come at a cost. A church with 25 regular attendees including the children and elderly have a difficult time of finding such men.
Our pastor's wife is an RN so he doesn't take a salary at all. He is completely devoted to the work in spite of bad health. He was diagnosed with leukemia almost 4 years ago and given 6 weeks to live. He left his position for awhile. We had a pastor in between that had been to West Point and recently to Bible college. He left. There were several problems that really don't fit this discussion however one of them was expectations/discouragement.
Jim, thanks for the kind remarks. Yes, I did not write this thread to debate whether or not Greek is a necessary skill to understand the Bible. Far from it.
I may have not been clear in my wording, but the actual point of the thread is to find out if people think a Greek class in some churches might go over well and that some people just might want to have the unique experience of reading the NT in its original language.
I never intended to imply that Greek is necessary to understand God's Word.
If someone wishes to open a thread to debate that, go for it. But, this thread was simply not intended for that discussion.
Thank you for pointing that out Jim.
Why would a church hire a pastor who has not even learned how to read the New Testament??? That is worse than a school hiring a man who can not read English to teach classes on Shakespeare’s writing!!!
Rightly or wrongly, men with formal training/higher education come at a cost. A church with 25 regular attendees including the children and elderly have a difficult time of finding such men.
Our pastor's wife is an RN so he doesn't take a salary at all. He is completely devoted to the work in spite of bad health. He was diagnosed with leukemia almost 4 years ago and given 6 weeks to live. He left his position for awhile. We had a pastor in between that had been to West Point and recently to Bible college. He left. There were several problems that really don't fit this discussion however one of them was expectations/discouragement. </font>[/QUOTE]Scott, I agree 100%. We were just discussing that same issue last night at church. There are 42 churches in our association. Out of that 42, I would guess that at least over half are lucky to have a pastor at all. Many of these churches have a total income of $25,000 per year or less. Most don't even have liability insurance and have difficulty keeping their electricity water and gas on, let alone paying the pastor.
If I were to hire a pastor at FBC of Dallas, yes, I would probably expect him to have at least one if not more Phd's and not only be experienced and proven effective, but to pass a very difficult background check. But, that is NOT a typical church. When a church pays a pastor $50,000+, then they can expect some education such as this. When the pastor volunteers to give his time, then you have to compromise.
Does this mean that you have an idiot for a pastor? Absolutely, NOT. I know of many lay pastors who can cut circles around a lot of Phd pastors that I have listened to, in both theology and effective ministry. Plus, often lay pastors are more sympathetic to the small group of church members and will show up at the hospitals, sitting with families during loved-one's surgery, etc. While at FBC First in Dallas, I can almost bet you will not ever see the pastor at your house unless you are famous yourself. This is a problem that I have with a lot of the Megachurch movement.
And for the other 3/4 of the Word, how about Hebrew?
About 15 years ago I took a basic course in Hebrew phonics -- at a Synagogue!! :> There we were, a bunch of Goyim (Gentiles) in the basement of a Synagogue being taught Hebrew by a Jewish M.D. It was a blast! He even had us put on a skull-cap (I forget the proper name) when we opened a copy of the Torah.
I keep hoping for the chance to learn more of the Hebrew language.
About 15 years ago I took a basic course in Hebrew phonics -- at a Synagogue!! :>
There we were, a bunch of Goyim (Gentiles) in the basement of a Synagogue being taught Hebrew by a Jewish M.D. It was a blast! He even had us put on a skull-cap (I forget the proper name) when we opened a copy of the Torah. I keep hoping for the chance to learn more of the Hebrew language.