Should we learn Greek?

[av1611jim]

Phillip;
You make some very, very good points. It seems to me that they who would 'Demand' a working knowledge in Greek of their pastor sufficient enough to teach greek are usually they who either a) know some themselves, or b) have unreal expectations of what/who a pastor is.
Also, I might suggest that for a pasotr to offer classes to his people, he must be competent in that which he teaches. He should definitely have much more than the typical cursory knowledge of Greek that many colleges offer to their ministerial students. In otherwords, he should have had advanced courses to prepare him to teach. Should he offer greek, I would submit that it just might (Notice I said MIGHT) become a distraction from weightier matters. i.e. visitation, evangelization, etc. There is no question that in order to competantly teach greek one must devote huge amounts of time in preparation. This is true of any subject, pretty much.
Obviously, a small church pastor cannot afford this luxury of time. There is just too much of other things demanded of them. And as you rightly pointed out, often they must be gainfully employed to supplement or totally supply support for their family. That right there eats up 20-40+hours of their week. And that is not counting commuting time, etc, associated with a job of any sort.
That being all considered, I think it is best left in the Colleges where it belongs. I just don't think the typical local church should be distracted with such things. If folks want to know greek, there is no reason they cannot take a single course at some college. And I might add; there are plenty of on-line resources available.

Would you agree with that?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

An example of the time it takes to prepare a course of study.
My brother, Dr. E.L. Skip Knox PhD. at BSU in Idaho has spent 700+ hours developing just ONE course in European History. And that was for freshmen!
Can a pastor of a local church afford to spend that kind of time to adequately offer his people a decent course in Greek?
I think not.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[HankD]

It is NOT necessary to know the "greek" for effective study, knowledge, preaching, application of Scripture.
Strangely, nobody addressed this obvious fact in that thread. (BTW, that thread also addressed the "Greek" issue)
Perhaps someone will address that point here.

The KJV translators addressed it in 1611 and in this case, I agree with their assessment...

Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures:

By having access to a variety of translations in one's native language one does not need to know the original languages and have the linguistics tools of those original languages to find the “sense” of the Scriptures.

HankD

 

[rjprince]

AV1611Jim,

A pastor who has had 2-3 years of Greek would never have to spend 700 hours to prepare! Did your brother skip write a textbook? Or a syllabus that was nearly the equivalent? There are some great introductory books on Greek that I could pick up and teach with very little prep time. I know, because I have done it. Now, if we are talking about more advanced Greek, I am not qualified to teach that no matter how much prep time I gave it. But basic Greek, 700+ hours, you know not from whence you speaketh, imho.

 

[rjprince]

Baptist teacher,

skull cap = yahmakah (spelled wrong I am sure!)

 

[Phillip]

There are very cost effective solution.

Try: http://www.sats.edu.za

They WERE pretty much Baptist in theology. When they first started they only used the King James, but they have changed since then. They are very inexpensive. And have certain accredidations from the University of SOuth Africa.

I took a 23 college hour program on Old Testament Survey and IT WAS HARD. It was NOT a gimme course. You had to write and write and write.

They run about $13.00 per credit hour if you buy the CD Rom version instead of the printed version. Graduate courses are about $16.00 per credit hour. The low cost is partially due to the exchange rate between here and South Africa. It is all English speaking.

I highly advise anyone who wants some inexpensive seminary to at least look at these programs, they are not cheap, but they will allow you to take about as much time as you need, understanding that people are very busy. Plus, you also get access to many free study guides on another site that you will get a password for.

Just remember, you HAVE TO BE SELF MOTIVATED. These are not classroom courses, so you WILL do the work if you want to pass the class.

Here are their two Greek classes:

BIB3140 - Basic Biblical Greek
Description: The focus on this course is to aid the student in the accurate interpretation of the New Testament by giving him/her access to Greek language skills. The emphasis is not on the theory of the language, nor on the fluent reading of biblical Greek, b. . .

BIB4104 - Biblical Greek 2
Description: The overall objective for this course is to equip you to understand the basics of Greek grammar and be able to recognise some common Greek words so that you can meaningfully use exegetical commentaries and other Greek language tools.in the expositio. . .

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by rjprince:
AV1611Jim,

A pastor who has had 2-3 years of Greek would never have to spend 700 hours to prepare! Did your brother skip write a textbook? Or a syllabus that was nearly the equivalent? There are some great introductory books on Greek that I could pick up and teach with very little prep time. I know, because I have done it. Now, if we are talking about more advanced Greek, I am not qualified to teach that no matter how much prep time I gave it. But basic Greek, 700+ hours, you know not from whence you speaketh, imho.

RJ I have to agree with you. I don't know of anyone who spends that kind of time preparing college courses, unless they are writing their own textbook. With the Greek I have taken, even though I have to refresh my memory on almost every sentence with reference books, I could teach the class myself with little preparation. The textbook and a good interlinear for each student would be all that would be required.

You might find somebody in the church (like myself) who has taken Greek. I teach Genesis and several other books during Sunday evening Bible Study and to do Greek would certainly take time, but might give the on-going members something new to learn and broaden their perspective of the Bible and its origins.

I would say that I pretty much agree with you, AV1611, but I would say that many churches may have exceptions to what you are saying.

Remember, although the teacher may be reasonably good at Greek, the teacher will also learn and improve his/her skills with the training, if they follow a good course book.

I had a biology teacher in college who had to replace a very sick physics teacher. He explained that he knew little about physics and didn't major in it. He said he would learn with us and we all jumped into the text book and it became one of the best classes I ever had because of the interaction. The teacher learned just as much as we did.

I am NOT saying that someone who has not had Greek should teach this, but I am saying that someone with several good courses under their belt and an ability to teach could provide a reasonably good Greek course.

 

[Phillip]

rjprince, you also make a good point. A church class would never get into "advanced" Greek anyway. It would be more of basic and introductory. They would learn to use a concordance and interlinear. They would learn to do some basic translation, maybe from one of the easier books of the NT.

If nothing else, they would learn to appreciate the language and the requirements of the translation process and would also better understand why translations vary from one another. You are not trying to turn them into Greek Scholars.

With today's free Bible software you can get all kinds of free Greek NT texts to work with.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Why would a church hire a pastor who has not even learned how to read the New Testament???

Some churches actually look for the ignorant so they can control the pastor.

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Why would a church hire a pastor who has not even learned how to read the New Testament???

Some churches actually look for the ignorant so they can control the pastor. </font>[/QUOTE]__________________________________________________
I would submit that a "church" like that of which you speak is no more a church than the local 4-H club.

Craigs comment was designed to incite some kind of argument that a Pastor who doesn't bother with the greek is somehow unable to "read" the New Testament. To which I again submit for your consideration the person of Dwight Moody. I suppose he would take exception to Craig's comment quite vehemently.

Most in this thread would agree with that.
In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Charles Meadows]

I think learning the languages is great.

But it's important to point out, as was previously said, that a little knowledge can be dangerous.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by rjprince:
AV1611Jim,

A pastor who has had 2-3 years of Greek would never have to spend 700 hours to prepare! Did your brother skip write a textbook? Or a syllabus that was nearly the equivalent? There are some great introductory books on Greek that I could pick up and teach with very little prep time. I know, because I have done it. Now, if we are talking about more advanced Greek, I am not qualified to teach that no matter how much prep time I gave it. But basic Greek, 700+ hours, you know not from whence you speaketh, imho.

Jim said his brother was preparing a class in European history.

Depending on the scope of the class, it might take that long to distill 3000 +/- years of history into one semester.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Why would a church hire a pastor who has not even learned how to read the New Testament???

Some churches actually look for the ignorant so they can control the pastor. </font>[/QUOTE]That wouldn't be limited to men who didn't know Greek though...

 

[williemakeit]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ransom:
No Greek. Just believe your pastor, and everything will be all right.

Most don't know Greek. So I guess what you are saying is follow the ignorant? </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that if the Pastor does not know Greek, then he is ignorant?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Craigs comment was designed to incite some kind of argument that a Pastor who doesn't bother with the greek is somehow unable to "read" the New Testament. To which I again submit for your consideration the person of Dwight Moody. I suppose he would take exception to Craig's comment quite vehemently.

The plain and simple fact is that the New Testament is written in Greek and unless a man can read Greek, he can NOT read the New Testament, but merely translations of it. As for D. L. Moody, even while he was pastoring the largest church in Chicago it was his own personal conviction that he was failing God. Therefore he entered into a period of heavy duty prayer that lasted for several weeks—during which time the Chicago fire occurred and burned his church to the ground. Of course that was not the end of the story—but I don’t have time to post it here. And besides that, we live in a vastly different world today where multiple earned doctorates are common place and pastors can be expected to be educated in the Biblical languages.

Scott and others make the point that there are many small churches whose present budget does not allow them to pay a pastor $75,000 - $100,000 a year. God, however, is not poor and He is more than able to provide a church with a learned and otherwise competent pastor if only the church will refuse to compromise. And just as a man without a head is not alive—a church without a competent pastor is not a church but merely a Christian fellowship. Naming such a thing a Baptist church doesn’t change what it really is, and its “members” need to either find and join a real church or trust God to make a true church out of their Christian fellowship.

 

[Trotter]

An education in biblical languages is not required for a man to pastor...but his ignorance of them will shine forth in his "interpretation" of the biblical texts.

I do not have an education in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek...but I am not afraid to stand on the shoulders of those who do/did, and to use the resources that they poured their lives into , in order to furnish us with a means of understanding.

To stand and LOUDLY proclaim one's ignorance by following the translations of men alone is inexcusable. I know I have endured much of this during the past few years. When you have done your research, and have dug to find what the original languages say and convey, it makes you cringe to hear some ignorant buffoon thump his Scofield and engage in thirty minutes of ignorant error!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by williemakeit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ransom:
No Greek. Just believe your pastor, and everything will be all right.

Most don't know Greek. So I guess what you are saying is follow the ignorant? </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that if the Pastor does not know Greek, then he is ignorant? </font>[/QUOTE]What I was saying is that to follow your pastor is much like saying follow the ignorant because it is a fact that the vast majority do not know Greek and if they have studied no longer keep up with their study of the language. To blindly trust your pastor even goes against what Paul commended the Bereans for.

 

[Charles Meadows]

The plain and simple fact is that the New Testament is written in Greek and unless a man can read Greek, he can NOT read the New Testament, but merely translations of it.

But "reading Greek" is not a simple task. To be able to read the text and appreciate the nuances appropriately takes alot of study. How can one have such a mastery without studying not just Greek but Latin, Hebrew, AND linguistic theory?

He cannot.

I would agree that it's good for pastors to be familiar with the original languages - but these men are pastors and not research professors. I would not insist my pastor be a savvy Greek grammarian!

 

[av1611jim]

Craig says,
_________________________________________________
...pastors can be expected to be educated in the Biblical languages.
__________________________________________________

This is the problem as I see it. It is THIS attitude that I am agaisnt.
Why?
First; WHO SAYS we should expect pastors to be fluent in Greek? Are you saying a Pastor cannot be used powerfully of God and raise up a sound Bible believing, soul winning, active, vibrant, influential church in this age, even in the midst of a dedcadent society? I say you are wrong. See here...
www.tvbc.org
Second; the concept of expecting a pastor to be fluent in greek smacks of arrogancy. (Translated...pride) Nothing needs said about THAT attitude. It communicates the idea that one is less than another man who has spent years becoming fluent in the language. While the one may have dedicated years in study of greek and other languages to read and understand the Biblical languages, it is entirely probable that the other has spent those SAME years quietly ministering to his flock, equipping his people to "go into all the world making disciples".
While there is nothing wrong per se, with a man studying a bit of greek while in school as he prepares for the pastorate, I do not and will not believe it is necessary for him to be used of God to be effective in preching the whole counsel of God to his people. I know of several pastors who do not waste time with the Greek. Yet they have raised up tremendously effective churches in reaching the lost here and abroad with the Gospel. And ain't THAT what we are to be about?
Craig, your comments are sound and persuasive. But I just do not agree with you.

Thank you Charles. Once again, your comments are reasonable, gracious, and encouraging for me.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Trotter]

OK, Jim.

You appendix has just ruptured. You are in dire need of immediate emergancy surgery. Do you want a surgeon, a gneral practioner, or someone who has watched doctors on television enough to know the terms they use?

In Christ,
Trotter