Should we learn Greek?

[Charles Meadows]

I think it is a good idea for all pastors to have some idea of how the original languages work.

But the job of a PASTOR is that of a shepherd. He visits the sick, counsels those in need, leads us in worship, witnesses to the lost, etc.

I'm not convinced that an academic knowledge of the languages really enhances his ability to do this - and too much study could take time away fro some of the other important jobs!

 

[rjprince]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
I think it is a good idea for all pastors to have some idea of how the original languages work.

But the job of a PASTOR is that of a shepherd. He visits the sick, counsels those in need, leads us in worship, witnesses to the lost, etc.

I'm not convinced that an academic knowledge of the languages really enhances his ability to do this - and too much study could take time away fro some of the other important jobs!

There is NO JOB more important for the Pastor than to rightly divide the Word of Truth to his flock. Others can do the bulk of the visitation, worship leading, and witnessing (the pastor should do some, and train others to do more!) but the Pastor is the one who is charged with the responsibility of feeding/teaching the flock. That is the Biblical pattern. That is the reason that "deacons" were appointed in Acts 6 (yes, I know the term is not used in that passage). Pastors who do all the other stuff instead of devoting themselves "to prayer and to the ministry of the the Word" are the ones who are off base and out of balance!

My have we been shaped by our culture. Everybody wants to be coddled by the pastor, and we oblige. GOD FORBID.

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Trotter:
OK, Jim.

You appendix has just ruptured. You are in dire need of immediate emergancy surgery. Do you want a surgeon, a gneral practioner, or someone who has watched doctors on television enough to know the terms they use?

In Christ,
Trotter

__________________________________________________

Trotter;
Apples and oranges my friend.
Besides; should I need a surgeon for my soul I go to the Great Physician, and the "Medical Book" He has given me! Duh!
Nice try though.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[av1611jim]

rj';
You are right. There IS no job more important than the Pastor spending time in prayer and study of the words of God. But this assertion does not prove your point at all. Simply because that Pastor has all he needs. He has the words of God and he has the Holy Spirit to guide him.
If this is not true for the pastors of today, then it was not true of the pastors of ancient times. The Italian pastors, the Russian pastors, the French pastors, the Spanish pastors, the German pastors, or any number of other pastors who had the words of God in their language in ancient times.
In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Lacy Evans]

Can someone give me a verse that proves "Greek-Trained-Pastor-Onlyism"?



Lacy

 

[av1611jim]

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[steveo]

I think learning some greek can help, but pastors shoudln't have to be scholars in greek.
Should pastors have to be scholars in biblical archaeology, history, etc?? To know some yeah, but to spend so much time in it that you don't study or read the scriptures in english can be bad.

 

[Charles Meadows]

RJ,

I think it is good for pastors to know some Greek. Biblical language study is my number one interest!

The problem is that language is a very complex thing. Several years of Greek in seminary does not make one a language scholar. If one has no knowledge of other languages and their paradigms and no knowledge of linguistic theory he/she is going to have difficulty mastering any language.

The goal of having pastors familiar with the biblical languages is good. But to get to the point where one has a high enough level of knowledge to critique commentaries and discern nuances of meaning BEYOND what the English gives is a lofty goal. Many simply donot have the intellect necessary and few have the time.

Thus I think it is not a reasonable goal to have pastors be expert grammarians. I think Dr Bob and I would disagree significantly on this subject.

 

[Trotter]

Jim,

You might like fruit salad, but that is not the topic here. The example is true to its purpose. Do you want to sit under a man who knows the meanings and nuances of the text, a man who at least has a general knowledge of the biblical languages, or somebody who learned to "hack" watching the last twelve preachers who pastored the church?

You might enjoy ignorance in the pulpit. I don't.

A pastor does not need to be fluent in the biblical languages. But he needs to be familiar with them. Any fool can stand up and shout back what he thinks the bible says, but a pastor is supposed to take what it says and open it up before his flock, helping them apply it to their lives.

When I work on my car, I don't just use a pair of pliers. I open up my toolbox, and use the right tool for the right job. Oh, I can get a lot done with a pair of plies, but I can't do it all, and I can't do it right. Ever try to change spark plugs with pliers? No, you need a deep-well socket.

Anyone can take Strong's and slap together a concordance hay ride, but a man who is aquainted with the languages can follow where the meanings lie. I'l take the meanings any day over concordance "preaching".

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Can someone give me a verse that proves "Greek-Trained-Pastor-Onlyism"?

Can you show me a verse that encourages laziness and ignorance for the benefit of the kingdom and God's people. I know of few who in the US who have not learned English so it is possible for the same people to learn any other language.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by av1611jim:

Besides; should I need a surgeon for my soul I go to the Great Physician, and the "Medical Book" He has given me!
Jim

Are you exempt from Proverbs 1:5, "A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel"?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Although I have not been in the pastoral ministry for some years, I have in my home library hundreds of volumes of commentaries on the Greek and Hebrew texts that were written with the assumption that the reader has a good knowledge of the biblical languages, making them unintelligible to those who can not read the biblical languages. I can not even begin to imagine going to the pulpit and preaching from a biblical text that I am not familiar with in the original language and without reading what other scholars think about the text.

The primary job of a pastor is teaching, and being a good teacher requires a good education. Any pastor who finds himself too busy to study is too busy. When I first took on the responsibility of pastoring a church, the church did not have the financial means to pay me a salary and I had to continue in my secular employment to not only pay my own bill, but the bills of the church as well. After about five months God showed me very clearly that my secular job was robbing me of the time that I needed to study and be available to my congregation and that I needed to resign from my secular position and trust Him to pay the church’s bills and support me financially. Therefore I resigned from my secular position and learned first hand what it means to live and pastor by faith.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I agree with Charles Meadows that unless one has more than a few years of language study under his belt he is very likely to make some mistakes in his interpretation of the texts that he is studying, but all of us have to begin somewhere. Three years of Greek at a University noted for academic excellence in biblical languages would be a good place to start, but any start is better than none, assuming that one does more than start. A good place to learn how to begin is found online at The Biblical Greek Mailing List:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/

By becoming a free online subscriber one will receive everyday a number of items of e-mail about the Greek New Testament and the resources available for studying it. These items include discussions about the best Greek textbooks and their strengths and weaknesses as well as discussions about the most effective way to use them. “Discussion topics include scholarly study of the Greek Bible and related Jewish and Christian Greek texts, tools for beginning and advanced students of Biblical Greek such as textbooks, reference works, bibliography and research tools, and linguistic topics such as morphology, lexicography, syntax, and discourse analysis. . . . Anyone interested in New Testament Studies is invited to subscribe, but list-members will be assumed to have at least a working knowledge of Biblical Greek. While "lurkers" are welcome to receive and read list correspondence, posts to the list are expected to pose questions about Biblical Greek, not general questions or opinions about doctrine or the meaning of the English text. Even basic questions are welcome, provided they are really about the meaning of the Greek text. This is not a general discussion list for Biblical matters. While one need not be a Greek scholar to subscribe, one should at least be taking the first serious steps in the study of Biblical Greek.”

 

[av1611jim]

gb;
Nope not exempt at all. That's why I am in the Book daily. To hear the counsel of God, in my own language. And by doing so I do increase in learning.
Are you proposing that that is not possible apart from the Greek, or any Biblical language for that matter? If so, then I submit you are greatly limiting God The Holy Spirit's ability, and His promise to do what He said He would do.
I also suggest that the verse you have offered applies equally well to the English language Bible I already have. In fact, you have quoted a verse that was once written in Hebrew. Therefore not even applicable to this "Greek" conversation, if you want to go that far with it.
You, sir, seem to think one is lazy unless he spends his time in his greek grammars, lexicons, etc. I would suggest to you that that is a very arrogant attitude.
You seem to be missing my point all along in this thread. Greek is not necessary for the man of God to be fully equipped to preach the whole counsel of God to his flock. It just is NOT. You can't prove otherwise. It may be helpful for the man who may wish to add to his library, but it is NOT necessary, nor has it ever been necessary.
Don't you get my point at all?
How is it that God is unable to fully equip the pastor who prayerfully comes to the Bible, in full reliance on the Holy Spirit unless he knows a little Greek? How is that possible?
Luke 1:37, "For with God, nothing shall be impossible"
Do you believe this or not? Do you put it into practice? Do you REALLY believe that NOTHING is impossible with God? Or would you care to help me with the "nuances" of that verse?
I do. Hence, my position stands.
In HIS service;
Jim

 

[gb93433]

 

[Ed Edwards]

My Brother went to Siberia and got a 8-year
old boy and a 10-year-old girl. When they
were back in the states the partents found
out the kids were awed that their
new "mother" could drive. "Mama can Drive!!!"
they said. I guess in Siberia the
ladies don't drive very much?

Consider this meaning for the parable.
It is not essential that a pastor have
a driver's license -- but it sure don't hurt.
It is not essential that a pastor have
a Greek backgound -- but it sure don't hurt.

 

[gb93433]

av1611jim:

You may think me to be arrogant but I know personally how much difference it has made in my personal life, preaching and at home in home education after having studied biblical languages. It is not about pride or arrogance but being well prepared. I have been a pastor long enough to hear people from churches talk about how they want a pastor who is young or unskilled so they won’t have to pay him much or even control him.

Many years ago I studied furniture making under a master craftsman who has some of his work in the Smithsonian. He too was called arrogant by the unskilled and ignorant. Yet he proved himself to those who wanted to learn. But to those who wanted to criticize he was labeled as arrogant and impractical. I heard many of the same comments then about woodworking that I read in this thread about studying Greek. Several years ago I was a furniture judge at a juried show. Many brought their furniture to be judged and given a prize. But in the course of judging I realized many had violated basic principles of design and structure. The average person and many of the professional furniture makers did not know. But because I am an expert in that area, I did. So it with those who are ignorant of biblical languages. The ignorant do not see what the expert does.

I have heard many mistakes from pulpits that would not have happened if the person preaching had some basic knowledge of the languages. The person who has not studied the biblical languages would not even know the difference.

We are dealing with the souls of people not wood or steel. Heart surgeons study for many years before their first operation. Why should we have a higher expectation of a heart surgeon than a pastor?

Why is it those who have a good grasp of the languages would come to this issue with such a different viewpoint than those who do not. I suspect it has more to do with responsibility and an eagerness to learn more than anything else. Doing God’s work is not about how little I can get by with but rather how well can I be prepared for the task God has for me.

It was about five years ago when I went to visit my brother in-law and sister who were not Christians. When I arrived my brother in law started asking me about some passages. Near the end of our conversation he told me why he asked. He had been listening to messages by a pastor who was poorly prepared. In fact that pastor had no theological training. So he and my sister stopped going to that church and started attending another. The pastor at the next church was well trained and they came to know Christ shortly after they started attending there. When a person comes to a church they must feel as though the person who is the main preacher is well trained and not ignorant. It is about trust and continually validating that.

Why do you think it is that many after pastoring awhile leave to go to seminary to get more training?

 

[KeithS]

It seems like this thread has descended into a "who needs Greek" vs. "you need Greek" thread.

God used Peter (an unlearned fisherman) and Paul (a Pharisee of the Pharisees) in miraculous ways. Perhaps there could be some agreement that God gifts believers differently but all edify the body.

Personally, I enjoy a study of the languages, but I don't think it is a litmus test of personal piety. I don't think any of you do either, I was just hoping to offer a centrist position.

There is more to Pastoring than original languages and I believe the teaching ministry can be enhanced with at least a basic understanding of the languages (hey, I even enjoy it when they are brought up in the sermon) - but I know of many good Pastors without a language background that preach great Biblical sermons and have powerful teaching ministries without them.

 

[Ed Edwards]

KeithS: "God used Peter (an unlearned fisherman)
and Paul (a Pharisee of the Pharisees) in miraculous ways."

Amen, Brother KeithS -- Preach it!

Ed notes both knew some Greek

 

[av1611jim]

Jim notes they were both raised probably speaking more than one language!
GB;
Have it your way. No man who is called of God is REALLY called of God UNLESS he is some expert on Greek.
No man who is a pastor is REALLY responsible and expert with the Scriptures UNLESS he is an expert on Greek.
No man who is preaching can REALLY preach unless he is an expert in Greek.
No preacher REALLY loves his people unless he is an expert in Greek.
Any pastor who is not an expert in Greek is just an ignoramus who should not be in the pulpit.

You got me convinced brother!

In HIS service;
Jim