Signs Of The Times - For The Rapture Or Second Coming?

[BibleTalk]

This question is from MB noted from a thread unrelated to his question posed to me or all who replied...:

What is it that you believe then. Myself I don't believe God is limited to signs. He can come when ever He wants.

This is a very important topic and discussion...

Signs that represent that Christ will return to the earth point to the revelation of Christ known as The Second Coming, and not the rapture of the Church. The rapture will precede the second coming seven years earlier. In the rapture, Jesus will appear suddenly in the air and remove the Church from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13,18). This will happen in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). The second coming will be an event that results in Christ coming to the earth visibly with His Bride, the Church.

The signs that point to the second coming will come into full fruition during the Great Tribulation, a period of seven years that will commence off the heels of the rapture and conclude with Christ visible and physical return on earth.

There will be very direct signs during the seven year Tribulation that will make it obvious that Christ is Coming. However, there are no signs for the Rapture. This is important to understand. The Rapture applies to the Church and not Israel. The Church does not conduct her affairs on earth by signs and wonders. We do not live by sight; but faith, which cometh by hearing and not seeing (2 Corinthians 5:7). The Rapture of the Church is imminent, it could happen now.

The Bible leaves no room or justification for predicting the Second Coming of Christ. We just don't know when He will come. However, there are indications that suggest Christ's return to restore Israel and establish His millennial reign may be in the very near future.

The blessed hope of the Church is the imminent return of Christ to take the Church home before the Great Tribulation. The blessed hope of Israel is the Second Coming of Her Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope this sheds light on MB's question...

Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger - www.InvitationToChrist.org

 

[Crabtownboy]

As God is outside of time and a thousand years are like a day and a day like a thousand years it seems to me there is no way we can speak of anything the end times being near or far. Time has no meaning to God, but it has a lot to do with us. Of course, no one really knows what time is and there are many kinds of time.

There is a very good book by the St. John's of Annapolis tudor Eva Brann entitled, "What, Then, Is Time.

 

[Revmitchell]

Myself I don't believe God is limited to signs. He can come when ever He wants.

What does that mean? It seems to be an attempt to negate any standard.

 

[just-want-peace]

As God is outside of time and a thousand years are like a day and a day like a thousand years it seems to me there is no way we can speak of anything the end times being near or far. Time has no meaning to God, but it has a lot to do with us. Of course, no one really knows what time is and there are many kinds of time.

There is a very good book by the St. John's of Annapolis tudor Eva Brann entitled, "What, Then, Is Time.

Not sure exactly what it is you are saying, but you sure do say it pretty!!!:flower:

 

[Crabtownboy]

Not sure exactly what it is you are saying, but you sure
do say it pretty!!!:flower:

That there is really no profit in speculating on when Christ will return. Time means so much to we humans, but time is meaningless to God.

 

[webdog]

That there is really no profit in speculating on when Christ will return. Time means so much to we humans, but time is meaningless to God.

Since God created time, I think it's a stretch to say it's meaningless to Him.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Since God created time, I think it's a stretch to say it's meaningless to Him.

Meaningless in the sense that he is not bound by time. God is outside of time. Time puts no constraints on God. We are trapped within time ... whatever time is and we really do not know ... and there are many kinds of time. For instance there is:

Geological time
Time as seen in frequencies
Time as measured by the earth passage around the sun ... and there are other types of time.

There are discussions/arguments about what is real within time. I will put in some emphasis to make it easier and divide the quote into paragraphs. Depending on which definition you agree with will of necessity influence how you see God.


Here is a quote:

Presentists argue that necessarily only present objects and present experiences are real, and we conscious beings recognize this in the special "vividness" of our present experience. The dinosaurs have slipped out of reality.

According to the growing-universe or growing-block theory, the past and present are both real, but the future is not because the future is indeterminate or merely potential. Dinosaurs are real but our death is not.

The third and more popular theory is that there are no significant ontological differences among present, past and future because the differences are merely subjective. This view is called "the block universe theory" or "eternalism."

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cach...ime.htm+philosophy+of+time&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1

 

[MB]

What does that mean? It seems to be an attempt to negate any standard.

It meant the rapture doesn't need any signs of the times. Other wise He cannot come and take us away as a theif in the night. When Christ comes for His church he doesn't come all the way to the earth but remains in the heaven above us. His angles bring in the harvest from one end of heaven to the other. If for instance there were a rapture after the tribulation began or at it's end, anyone who has read the Bible would be able to tell just about when He would come and therefore could not come as a theif in the night. Everyone would be looking over there sholder so to speak.
MB

 

[MB]

Paul says we meet the Lord in the air;
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Just would make anysense to me to meet Him in the air only to come Right back down on the ground.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

Signs that represent that Christ will return to the earth point to the revelation of Christ known as The Second Coming, and not the rapture of the Church......There will be very direct signs during the seven year Tribulation that will make it obvious that Christ is Coming.

Whenever "signs" are given to indicate when Christ will return they are intentionally ambiguous (i.e. "wars and rumors of wars" are given because there are always wars and rumors of wars; "earthquakes" and such are always occurring.) The reason they are intentionally ambiguous is because the context of the passages is not about someone being able to figure out when Jesus will return, but for everyone reading the passages to live their lives as if Jesus could be returning that very day.

The rapture will precede the second coming seven years earlier. In the rapture, Jesus will appear suddenly in the air and remove the Church from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13,18). This will happen in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). The second coming will be an event that results in Christ coming to the earth visibly with His Bride, the Church.

The rapture and the second coming occur together, after the tribulation of the saints. The I Thessalonian passage clearly indicates the truth that the "Day of the Lord" (the Second Coming, Day of Judgement....) occurs simultaneously with the rapture of the saints.

However, there are no signs for the Rapture. This is important to understand. The Rapture applies to the Church and not Israel.The blessed hope of the Church is the imminent return of Christ to take the Church home before the Great Tribulation. The blessed hope of Israel is the Second Coming of Her Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no separate future for Israel apart from the Church. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus abolished the deviding wall that separate Jew from Gentile and that the 2 groups have become one new man...i.e. the church.

Christ will not "unabolish" that which He abolished. Christ will not devide that which He reconciled. Christ will not "undo" all that He accomplished on the cross.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

This question is from MB noted from a thread unrelated to his question posed to me or all who replied...:

This is a very important topic and discussion...

Signs that represent that Christ will return to the earth point to the revelation of Christ known as The Second Coming, and not the rapture of the Church. The rapture will precede the second coming seven years earlier. In the rapture, Jesus will appear suddenly in the air and remove the Church from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13,18). This will happen in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). The second coming will be an event that results in Christ coming to the earth visibly with His Bride, the Church.

The signs that point to the second coming will come into full fruition during the Great Tribulation, a period of seven years that will commence off the heels of the rapture and conclude with Christ visible and physical return on earth.

There will be very direct signs during the seven year Tribulation that will make it obvious that Christ is Coming. However, there are no signs for the Rapture. This is important to understand. The Rapture applies to the Church and not Israel. The Church does not conduct her affairs on earth by signs and wonders. We do not live by sight; but faith, which cometh by hearing and not seeing (2 Corinthians 5:7). The Rapture of the Church is imminent, it could happen now.

The Bible leaves no room or justification for predicting the Second Coming of Christ. We just don't know when He will come. However, there are indications that suggest Christ's return to restore Israel and establish His millennial reign may be in the very near future.

The blessed hope of the Church is the imminent return of Christ to take the Church home before the Great Tribulation. The blessed hope of Israel is the Second Coming of Her Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope this sheds light on MB's question...

Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger - www.InvitationToChrist.org

I feel your pain on this topic - it is one of my pet peaves also.

Either the Lord's return is imminent, or it's not. Pick one.

People speak out one side of their mouth and say that the Lord could return today, and out the other side they say that this or that must be a sign that it is near. It can not be both. If it is imminent, then there are no signs to look for.

Not only that, but when someone like Jack Van Impe says that some event in the news today is a fulfillment of some prophecy, he is admiting that he lied to me yesterday, because yesterday he said that the Lord could come at any moment. If there was a yet-fulfilled prophecy yesterday, then the Lord COULD NOT COME AT ANY MOMENT.

Another beef I have is when people say that the second coming is NEAR. In reality, that's no different than setting a date and time.

How does anyone know if it's near? Well, things are bad and getting worse. Okay, I can't dispute that. But weren't things worse in the first century? How about the dark ages and the inquisition? Would anyone really like to trade places with the Huguenots?

 

[Amy.G]

Whenever "signs" are given to indicate when Christ will return they are intentionally ambiguous (i.e. "wars and rumors of wars" are given because there are always wars and rumors of wars; "earthquakes" and such are always occurring.) The reason they are intentionally ambiguous is because the context of the passages is not about someone being able to figure out when Jesus will return, but for everyone reading the passages to live their lives as if Jesus could be returning that very day.The rapture and the second coming occur together, after the tribulation of the saints. The I Thessalonian passage clearly indicates the truth that the "Day of the Lord" (the Second Coming, Day of Judgement....) occurs simultaneously with the rapture of the saints.


There is no separate future for Israel apart from the Church. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus abolished the deviding wall that separate Jew from Gentile and that the 2 groups have become one new man...i.e. the church.

Christ will not "unabolish" that which He abolished. Christ will not devide that which He reconciled. Christ will not "undo" all that He accomplished on the cross.

peace to youraying:

Thank you. This is how I interpret it.

Pre-trib/pre-mil, Christ reigning on the earth after the "tribulation" that utterly destroys the planet, over both the mortal and the immortal.....does not make a lick of sense to me.

 

[MB]

Whenever "signs" are given to indicate when Christ will return they are intentionally ambiguous (i.e. "wars and rumors of wars" are given because there are always wars and rumors of wars; "earthquakes" and such are always occurring.) The reason they are intentionally ambiguous is because the context of the passages is not about someone being able to figure out when Jesus will return, but for everyone reading the passages to live their lives as if Jesus could be returning that very day.The rapture and the second coming occur together, after the tribulation of the saints. The I Thessalonian passage clearly indicates the truth that the "Day of the Lord" (the Second Coming, Day of Judgement....) occurs simultaneously with the rapture of the saints.

Would you be good enough to show the scripture that supports this view?

There is no separate future for Israel apart from the Church. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus abolished the deviding wall that separate Jew from Gentile and that the 2 groups have become one new man...i.e. the church.

Agreed

Christ will not "unabolish" that which He abolished. Christ will not devide that which He reconciled. Christ will not "undo" all that He accomplished on the cross.

peace to youraying:[/quote]
True He won't. I study this all the time and really would like to know which scriptures support the rapture and the judgement happening all at the same time.
MB

 

[Amy.G]

How about the dark ages and the inquisition? Would anyone really like to trade places with the Huguenots?

I watched a program on History Channel last night about Roman life and debauchery of their society. It focused on the emperors Tiberias through Nero.
Nero being the worst, following Caligula (sp?) covered Christians with tar and tied them to a post, then put them in his garden for lighting for one of his disgusting parties.
How can the "tribulation" be any worse than that????

 

[J.D.]

The Bible leaves no room or justification for predicting the Second Coming of Christ. We just don't know when He will come. However, there are indications that suggest Christ's return to restore Israel and establish His millennial reign may be in the very near future.

I didn't notice this the first time I read the OP. You've contradicted yourself as I described in my previous post. You can't predict it but you say it's "near". Either you're predicting it or your not. Pick one.

This is not intended to offend but to make you and I think about what we're saying.

 

[J.D.]

I watched a program on History Channel last night about Roman life and debauchery of their society. It focused on the emperors Tiberias through Nero.
Nero being the worst, following Caligula (sp?) covered Christians with tar and tied them to a post, then put them in his garden for lighting for one of his disgusting parties.
How can the "tribulation" be any worse than that????

You got that right Sister!

 

[BibleTalk]

I didn't notice this the first time I read the OP. You've contradicted yourself as I described in my previous post. You can't predict it but you say it's "near". Either you're predicting it or your not. Pick one.

This is not intended to offend but to make you and I think about what we're saying.

Merely suggesting that the Second Coming of Christ to restore the kingdom to Israel could be in the very near future is simply a reflection of what we see in the world today as it is spoken of in the Bible and in NO way puts a date or likely time frame on Christ coming. Please forgive me if that was the implied.

Example of reflection:

Israel's return to the Land Promised to Her (Though She does not possess all of it yet...).

Lawlessness is abounding.

Apostasy is increasingly becoming well entrenched.

A Religious appetite for an ecumenical one world church.

The rapid physical decline of the world via: war, earth quakes, and potential human annihilation of which all will require Christ's return before these events run their determined course and bring the world to an end.

While it is true, that many awful things are happening even in our day... they do not compare to the awful things that will happen during the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21). Discerning believers during the Great Tribulation will have a strong attraction and appetite for the Second Coming Of Christ. And justly so.

Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger - www.InvitationToChrist.org

 

[webdog]

Thank you. This is how I interpret it.

Pre-trib/pre-mil, Christ reigning on the earth after the "tribulation" that utterly destroys the planet, over both the mortal and the immortal.....does not make a lick of sense to me.

...and God of the universe sending His Son to die in my place does?

Don't discount something just because it does't make sense. I'm counting on the blessed hope, and that is only found through the pre trib position.

 

[Amy.G]

...and God of the universe sending His Son to die in my place does?

Don't discount something just because it does't make sense. I'm counting on the blessed hope, and that is only found through the pre trib position.

Actually, Christ dying for my sins makes perfect sense.

 

[webdog]

I watched a program on History Channel last night about Roman life and debauchery of their society. It focused on the emperors Tiberias through Nero.
Nero being the worst, following Caligula (sp?) covered Christians with tar and tied them to a post, then put them in his garden for lighting for one of his disgusting parties.
How can the "tribulation" be any worse than that????

Easy...the Bible says it will be. The Bible states tribulation like this planet has never before seen...including Nero, the inquisition, etc.