Signs Of The Times - For The Rapture Or Second Coming?

[OldRegular]

This question is from MB noted from a thread unrelated to his question posed to me or all who replied...:

This is a very important topic and discussion...

Signs that represent that Christ will return to the earth point to the revelation of Christ known as The Second Coming, and not the rapture of the Church. The rapture will precede the second coming seven years earlier. In the rapture, Jesus will appear suddenly in the air and remove the Church from the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:13,18). This will happen in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). The second coming will be an event that results in Christ coming to the earth visibly with His Bride, the Church.

The signs that point to the second coming will come into full fruition during the Great Tribulation, a period of seven years that will commence off the heels of the rapture and conclude with Christ visible and physical return on earth.

There will be very direct signs during the seven year Tribulation that will make it obvious that Christ is Coming. However, there are no signs for the Rapture. This is important to understand. The Rapture applies to the Church and not Israel. The Church does not conduct her affairs on earth by signs and wonders. We do not live by sight; but faith, which cometh by hearing and not seeing (2 Corinthians 5:7). The Rapture of the Church is imminent, it could happen now.

The Bible leaves no room or justification for predicting the Second Coming of Christ. We just don't know when He will come. However, there are indications that suggest Christ's return to restore Israel and establish His millennial reign may be in the very near future.

If the so-called rapture occurs and Jesus Christ is to return with His Bride the Church after the so-called seven year tribulation period what is the point of signs? Of course if dispensationalist John Walvoord is correct perhaps there will need to be signs. He writes in Major Bible Prophecies , pages 283, 293, that the time lapse between “the Rapture” and the “Second Coming” will be more than seven years

Incidentally the passages from 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians describe the same event.

You also state that: "The Church does not conduct her affairs on earth by signs and wonders." I thought that Peter and Paul did a number of signs and wonders in the early Church? Is Scripture mistaken?

The blessed hope of the Church is the imminent return of Christ to take the Church home before the Great Tribulation. The blessed hope of Israel is the Second Coming of Her Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope this sheds light on MB's question...

Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger - www.InvitationToChrist.org

The Scripture reference to the Blessed Hope doesn’t sound much like a secret rapture to me:

Titus 2:13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

And as for the Jews oI believe about 97% are either atheist or agnostic so what would they be looking for?


May I remind folks, especially those who are Southern Baptist that the Southern Baptist Faith and Message, 1963, 2000 speaks of the Church as follows: The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. Doesn't that create a problem for those supposedly redeemed during the so-called tribulation period if the Church has been “snatched away” as some folks like to say? They are redeemed and, therefore, in the Church after it has gone!!!!

Well, somebody on this Forum has been talking about rapture2 so perhaps everything will pan out.:laugh:

 

[webdog]

Actually, Christ dying for my sins makes perfect sense.

Does it? I accept it, but can't wrap my mind around the fact the Creator has given His life for the creat-ed. That defies any human logic whatsoever.

 

[Amy.G]

While it is true, that many awful things are happening even in our day... they do not compare to the awful things that will happen during the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger - www.InvitationToChrist.org

I don't see how you can say this. How can there possibly anything worse than what has already happened to Christians since pentacost?

Have you studied the Inquisition?

 

[OldRegular]

Whenever "signs" are given to indicate when Christ will return they are intentionally ambiguous (i.e. "wars and rumors of wars" are given because there are always wars and rumors of wars; "earthquakes" and such are always occurring.) The reason they are intentionally ambiguous is because the context of the passages is not about someone being able to figure out when Jesus will return, but for everyone reading the passages to live their lives as if Jesus could be returning that very day.The rapture and the second coming occur together, after the tribulation of the saints. The I Thessalonian passage clearly indicates the truth that the "Day of the Lord" (the Second Coming, Day of Judgement....) occurs simultaneously with the rapture of the saints.


There is no separate future for Israel apart from the Church. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus abolished the deviding wall that separate Jew from Gentile and that the 2 groups have become one new man...i.e. the church.

Christ will not "unabolish" that which He abolished. Christ will not devide that which He reconciled. Christ will not "undo" all that He accomplished on the cross.

peace to youraying:

Can we get an AMEN on that?

 

[canadyjd]

Would you be good enough to show the scripture that supports this view?

Originally Posted by canadyjd
Whenever "signs" are given to indicate when Christ will return they are intentionally ambiguous (i.e. "wars and rumors of wars" are given because there are always wars and rumors of wars; "earthquakes" and such are always occurring.) The reason they are intentionally ambiguous is because the context of the passages is not about someone being able to figure out when Jesus will return, but for everyone reading the passages to live their lives as if Jesus could be returning that very day.

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened......(30) and then the Son of Man will appear in the sky.....(31)And He will send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

1. The Son of Man (Jesus) comes again after the tribulation
2. The "elect" are gathered at that time, therefore, they lived through the tribulation

Matt. 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming...."

The "therefore" connects what came before in the discourse. This includes the "signs" of the return (24:1-14), the discription of the tribulation (15-28) the discription of the return (29-31) and the parable of the fig tree plus other "signs". (v. 32-41)

The instruction is to "be on the alert". Why? "for you do not know which day your Lord is coming". Why do you not know which day the Lord is coming...? Because the signs are intentionally ambiguous.

The rapture and the second coming occur together, after the tribulation of the saints. The I Thessalonian passage clearly indicates the truth that the "Day of the Lord" (the Second Coming, Day of Judgement....) occurs simultaneously with the rapture of the saints.

Being consistent with the Matt: 24 passage, I Thess. 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first....." I Thess. 5:1-2 " Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need for anythign to be written to you. (2) For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night"

The "day of the Lord" is the day of judgement, which is the day of the second coming. They clearly occur at the same time as the rapture.

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Can we get an AMEN on that?

Not from me Replacement theology is as false doctrine as any out there.

 

[Amy.G]

Does it? I accept it, but can't wrap my mind around the fact the Creator has given His life for the creat-ed. That defies any human logic whatsoever.

Well, maybe I just don't think right! :laugh:

I can't wrap my mind around God's goodness, but I understand why He did what He did. I could not save myself, so out of love He saved me. When I look at the Bible as a whole, all God does makes perfect sense.
Maybe I'm weird. NO COMMENTS!

 

[Amy.G]

Not from me Replacement theology is as false doctrine as any out there.

Ya'll are posting too fast! I can't keep up!

It's not replacement theology. From the two (Israel/NT believers), God made one new man. The church has become part of Israel, not replaced her.

 

[canadyjd]

Ya'll are posting too fast! I can't keep up!

It's not replacement theology. From the two (Israel/NT believers), God made one new man. The church has become part of Israel, not replaced her.

:thumbs:

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

Ya'll are posting too fast! I can't keep up!

It's not replacement theology. From the two (Israel/NT believers), God made one new man. The church has become part of Israel, not replaced her.

As a gentile, we have been grafted in along with Israel, not grafted into Israel, but we are clearly separate groups of believers (Romans 9 - 11)

 

[Amy.G]

As a gentile, we have been grafted in, but we are clearly separate groups of believers (Romans 9 - 11)

I agree. We are two groups, yet one. Does that make sense?

 

[webdog]

I don't see how you can say this. How can there possibly anything worse than what has already happened to Christians since pentacost?

Have you studied the Inquisition?

Matthew 24 states it will be worse than anything that has happened since pentacost, or after. This clearly has not come to pass yet, so it must be future.

 

[webdog]

I agree. We are two groups, yet one. Does that make sense?

...only in the pre trib, pre mill position :thumbs:

 

[J.D.]

Ya'll are posting too fast! I can't keep up!

It's not replacement theology. From the two (Israel/NT believers), God made one new man. The church has become part of Israel, not replaced her.

I can't keep up either. And I have to log off now too.:tear:

Later!

 

[OldRegular]

I don't see how you can say this. How can there possibly anything worse than what has already happened to Christians since pentacost?

Have you studied the Inquisition?

July 9, 2008 at 1:21 pm (Church)

Chuck Colson has some interesting and eye-opening figures on the holocaust of Christians in the twentieth century. The article itself is dated 2002.*The estimate is that 45,000,000 Christians have been martyred in the twentieth century. According to the same estimate, the total number of Christians martyred since the time of Christ is around 70,000,000.

I*want to point out a couple of things. Firstly, such numbers, as Colson points out, do not diminish the horror of the Holocaust in the least. However, Jews should not think that they are the only ones who have been persecuted in the twentieth century. Christians have lost more than 7 times as many lives as the Jews lost in the Holocaust. Not a fact that you will hear much about in the news (nor do I particularly want it to be reported. It is not as if Christians need to brag about being persecuted).

http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/on-the-holocaust-of-christians/

Of course the above does not include the 50 million babies murdered in this country alone.

 

[BibleTalk]

As a gentile, we have been grafted in along with Israel, not grafted into Israel, but we are clearly separate groups of believers (Romans 9 - 11)

Very Good Point WebDog...

Covenant theologians teach that the Church became the Israel of the New Testament. Obviously, this is not the case, as seen by the following arguments:

#1: The Promises Are Different
a. For Israel, the promises and provisions were basically earthly in scope. See Exodus 15:26; Deuteronomy 28
b. For the Church, the promises are heavenly in scope. See Colossians .3:1,3; Ephesians. 1:3

#2: The Seed Is Different
a. Abraham's physical seed refers to Israel - Romans 9:7
b. Abraham's spiritual seed refers to the Church - Galatians 3:7

#3: The Births Are Different
a. Israel celebrated its birthday at the base of Mt. Sinai - Exodus 19 & 20
b. The Church celebrated its birthday at Pentecost - Acts 2 (What actually happened on the Day Of Pentecost?)
The author of Hebrews brings out the obvious contrast between these two entities. Israel became what they are by a physical birth. The Church became what we are by spiritual birth (Hebrews 12;18,24)

#4: The Nationality Is Different
a. Israel belonged to this earth and to the earthly world system.
b. The Church is composed of all nations and has no earthly citizenship, and is portrayed as strangers and pilgrims - 1 Peter 2:11

#5: The Relationship With God The Father Is Different
a. God is never presented as the Father of Individual Israelites in the O.T.
b. God is presented as Father of all N.T. Believers. (1 John 3:1).

#6: The Relationship With God The Son Is Different
a. Christ Is A Stumbling Stone To Israel - 1 Corinthians.1:23; 1 Peter. 2:8
b. Christ is the Foundation and Chief Cornerstone of the Church - 1 Pet. 2:4,5

#7: The Relationship With The Holy Spirit Is Different
a. The Holy Spirit rarely came upon individual O.T. Israelites
b. The Holy Spirit lives inside each N.T. Believer - 1 Corinthians. 6:19

These are just a few reasons from the Bible why the Church is not a replacement of Israel. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the principles of rightly dividing the word of truth. I hope this sheds light on this very important topic and discussion. God bless you.


Sincerely, Dr. Arthur Belanger - www.InvitationToChrist.org

 

[OldRegular]

Matthew 24 states it will be worse than anything that has happened since pentacost, or after. This clearly has not come to pass yet, so it must be future.

Matthew 24, properly interpreted, speaks about both the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome and the Second Coming. For example Verses 15-22 have reference to the Christians in Jerusalem fleeing to a place called Pella, apparently after receiving a supernatural warning.

 

[Amy.G]

...only in the pre trib, pre mill position :thumbs:

Huh?

True Israel and true Church = one new man in Christ. Christ is the Vine. We are both attached to Him.

I am apparently not pre-mil/pre-trib. I have learned this during this study of end times.

 

[Amy.G]

Matthew 24, properly interpreted, speaks about both the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome and the Second Coming. For example Verses 15-22 have reference to the Christians in Jerusalem fleeing to a place called Pella, apparently after receiving a supernatural warning.

Precisely.

I think some interpret this whole passage as referring to the Church.

 

[OldRegular]

Not from me Replacement theology is as false doctrine as any out there.

Originally Posted by canadyjd
There is no separate future for Israel apart from the Church. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus abolished the deviding wall that separate Jew from Gentile and that the 2 groups have become one new man...i.e. the church.

Christ will not "unabolish" that which He abolished. Christ will not devide that which He reconciled. Christ will not "undo" all that He accomplished on the cross.

peace to you

You are mistaken. canadyjd did not mention replacement theology, he simply spoke the truth [Read Ephesians, Chapter 2.] which I know hurts sometimes. Paul also clearly teaches in Romans 11 that believing Israel and believing Gentiles constitute the Church.