Sin Nature versus Law of Sin

[The Biblicist]

Rom. 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with
me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I am not for the present defending this is contextually referring to a regenerated man and his internal struggle between his regenerated spirit (new man; inward man) and the law of sin still active in the unregenerate aspect of his human nature. I am presumming this is the case and if need be in another thread I think I can provide evidence that demands this is the case.

However, for the present I am only defending the precise point that the personal pronoun "I" is in a struggle between "good" and "evil" and although he is taking full responsibility for doing "evil" he is also precisely restricting its origin within himself to be "in my flesh" (v. 18) which is still "sold under sin" and will continue under "the law of sin" until final deliverance at the Lord's return (v. 24). In the mean time, this internal struggle continues to exist (v. 25).

There is a contrast between "the law of God" that the personal pronoun "I" (soul) delights in with regard to his "inward man" (regenerated spirit) but is without will power to implement (v. 18) due to another indwelling "law" or the "law of sin" that "dwelleth in me" which overpowers the personal pronoun "I" which is inclusive of his "will" (v. 18) and "mind" (v.25) and heart (v. 22 "delight"). His will, mind and heart (delight - emotions) all take sides with the "law of God" and unitedly strive to do "good" but fail because "I" or my "will....mind....delight" have NO POWER to overcome this "law of sin."

Hence, the "law of God" found within him has NO POWER to overcome this "law of sin" nor does any aspect of his soul (will, mind, emotions) or the conscious self represented by the personal pronoun "I" as that power comes from a separate indwelling source - the Holy Spirit - in Romans 8:9-27.

So, there is a contrast and war between the inward "law of God" (v. 22) and the inward "law of sin" and it is the conscious self ("I") or his "mind, will, emotions) that is the BATTLEFIELD. Again, the pronoun "I" or his "will....mind.....delight" are inclined to do "good" (due to new birth or regenerated spirit) but are without power to follow that inclination.

In other passages Paul describes the reason for this inclination to do good in a metaphor as the law of God written upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3) thus giving this inclination to do good and yet also, points the believers to seek POWER not in themselves including the regenerated aspect of their nature but in the POWER OF GOD or indwelling Spirit (Eph. 3:20; 5:19; 6:11-12) by which comes the power to "put off" and "put own" the inclination of their soul (will,mind, emotions) into their words and actions. When the old man is in charge the will, mind and emotions become slaves to this evil nature/disposition, but when the new man is put on by the power of the indwelling Spirit the will, mind and emotions are freed to follow their inclinations to speak and do good in keeping with the regenerate NATURE.

The regenerate NATURE is inclusive of the "law of God" as a FIXED UNALTERABLE principle that characterizes what God has quicked (the spirit of man - Jn. 3:6) and thus is referred to as a "man" or "inward man" having a RIGHTEOUS HOLY NATURE. In direct contrast, the unregenerate aspect of man is referred also as a "law" or FIXED UNALTERABLE principle in direct contrast to the Law of God with regard to the unregenerate aspect of his nature which has not been born again and is also referred to as "man" or the "outward man" or a UNRIGHEOUS UNHOLY NATURE.

 

[Iconoclast]

B,

When the old man is in charge the will, mind and emotions become slaves to this evil nature/disposition, but when the new man is put on by the power of the indwelling Spirit the will, mind and emotions are freed to follow their inclinations to speak and do good in keeping with the regenerate NATURE.

Col3
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

rom6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

 

[loDebar]

Rom. 7:14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with
me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I am not for the present defending this is contextually referring to a regenerated man and his internal struggle between his regenerated spirit (new man; inward man) and the law of sin still active in the unregenerate aspect of his human nature. I am presumming this is the case and if need be in another thread I think I can provide evidence that demands this is the case.

However, for the present I am only defending the precise point that the personal pronoun "I" is in a struggle between "good" and "evil" and although he is taking full responsibility for doing "evil" he is also precisely restricting its origin within himself to be "in my flesh" (v. 18) which is still "sold under sin" and will continue under "the law of sin" until final deliverance at the Lord's return (v. 24). In the mean time, this internal struggle continues to exist (v. 25).

There is a contrast between "the law of God" that the personal pronoun "I" (soul) delights in with regard to his "inward man" (regenerated spirit) but is without will power to implement (v. 18) due to another indwelling "law" or the "law of sin" that "dwelleth in me" which overpowers the personal pronoun "I" which is inclusive of his "will" (v. 18) and "mind" (v.25) and heart (v. 22 "delight"). His will, mind and heart (delight - emotions) all take sides with the "law of God" and unitedly strive to do "good" but fail because "I" or my "will....mind....delight" have NO POWER to overcome this "law of sin."

Hence, the "law of God" found within him has NO POWER to overcome this "law of sin" nor does any aspect of his soul (will, mind, emotions) or the conscious self represented by the personal pronoun "I" as that power comes from a separate indwelling source - the Holy Spirit - in Romans 8:9-27.

So, there is a contrast and war between the inward "law of God" (v. 22) and the inward "law of sin" and it is the conscious self ("I") or his "mind, will, emotions) that is the BATTLEFIELD. Again, the pronoun "I" or his "will....mind.....delight" are inclined to do "good" (due to new birth or regenerated spirit) but are without power to follow that inclination.

In other passages Paul describes the reason for this inclination to do good in a metaphor as the law of God written upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3) thus giving this inclination to do good and yet also, points the believers to seek POWER not in themselves including the regenerated aspect of their nature but in the POWER OF GOD or indwelling Spirit (Eph. 3:20; 5:19; 6:11-12) by which comes the power to "put off" and "put own" the inclination of their soul (will,mind, emotions) into their words and actions. When the old man is in charge the will, mind and emotions become slaves to this evil nature/disposition, but when the new man is put on by the power of the indwelling Spirit the will, mind and emotions are freed to follow their inclinations to speak and do good in keeping with the regenerate NATURE.

The regenerate NATURE is inclusive of the "law of God" as a FIXED UNALTERABLE principle that characterizes what God has quicked (the spirit of man - Jn. 3:6) and thus is referred to as a "man" or "inward man" having a RIGHTEOUS HOLY NATURE. In direct contrast, the unregenerate aspect of man is referred also as a "law" or FIXED UNALTERABLE principle in direct contrast to the Law of God with regard to the unregenerate aspect of his nature which has not been born again and is also referred to as "man" or the "outward man" or a UNRIGHEOUS UNHOLY NATURE.

Can one do good without a knowledge of the law?

 

[The Biblicist]

Can one do good without a knowledge of the law?

No sinner can do good without new birth in God's sight and the new birth is writing the law of God upon the hearts which is simply a metaphor which means God gives them a disposition to love what he loves and hate what he hates. Even then no regenerated man can do good except empowered by the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

B,


Col3
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

rom6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

My friend don't confuse POSITIONAL death (legal death with Christ on the cross) with your actual condition. Positional death is a one time non-repeatable event but taking up your cross daily is a progressive repeatable experience. With regard to your actual condition only your spirit has been regenerated. Neither your soul or body has been glorified and still subject to the power of sin. To "put on" the new man is "to be renewed in the spirit of your mind" and is a progressive and repeated action and is one and the same as to be "filled with the Spirit" or to "walk in the Spirit" and no child of God living in an unglorified body walks in the Spirit consistently. Spiritual growth is determined by how habitual one does walk in the Spirit.

Both Martin Loyd Jones and his disciple John MacArthur are wrong on their interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 and Galatians 5:17-21.

 

[loDebar]

No sinner can do good without new birth in God's sight and the new birth is writing the law of God upon the hearts which is simply a metaphor which means God gives them a disposition to love what he loves and hate what he hates. Even then no regenerated man can do good except empowered by the Holy Spirit.

The lost cannot love their mothers or children?

Can a good man do bad things even though they have the Holy Spirit?

 

[Iconoclast]

My friend don't confuse POSITIONAL death (legal death with Christ on the cross) with your actual condition. Positional death is a one time non-repeatable event but taking up your cross daily is a progressive repeatable experience. With regard to your actual condition only your spirit has been regenerated. Neither your soul or body has been glorified and still subject to the power of sin. To "put on" the new man is "to be renewed in the spirit of your mind" and is a progressive and repeated action and is one and the same as to be "filled with the Spirit" or to "walk in the Spirit" and no child of God living in an unglorified body walks in the Spirit consistently. Spiritual growth is determined by how habitual one does walk in the Spirit.

Both Martin Loyd Jones and his disciple John MacArthur are wrong on their interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 and Galatians 5:17-21.

I believe we are not yet glorified and not yet perfected as if we are in heaven in a glorified body.
We are here commanded to mortify sin, the impulses of sin.
The old man was crucified, yet we are still in a body that has motions of sin that we are to mortify. The reigning power of sin has been broken.
Paul describes this conflict in Roman's 7.
What you describe as only positional, I believe we are told to reckon it as a reality having put off the old and put on the new.
In heaven we will be fully conformed to the image of the Son. We are to live now in light of that reality. Roman's 6:1-21.

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe we are not yet glorified and not yet perfected as if we are in heaven in a glorified body.
We are here commanded to mortify sin, the impulses of sin.
The old man was crucified, yet we are still in a body that has motions of sin that we are to mortify.

If the old man as a matter of ACTUAL CONDITION were crucified rather than merely POSITIONALLY crucified there would be no need to command us to do anything with regard to sin as it would be dead. We are not told to mortify sin, but mortify THE FLESH which is the "old man." It is not abstract sin that is to be crucified daily but YOU - the self-life. The issue is not sin but YOU as you can either choose to "put on" or "put off" through submission to the Spirit or choose not to. YOU are the problem.

The reigning power of sin has been broken.

That is simply not true as your are presenting it. Its reigning power is only broken "in Christ" positionally and only conditionally ONLY WHEN WE WALK IN HIM through the power of the indwelling Spirit. Fail to walk in him and you will be rudely awakened to the power of the reign of sin. Sin reigns over ever child of God when they are not WALKING in the Spirit, meaning "filled with the Spirit". We "live" in the Spirit but we do not always "walk" in the Spirit (Gal.5:22) and when we are not walking in the Spirit we are experiencing the rule of sin over our lives.

What you describe as only positional, I believe we are told to reckon it as a reality having put off the old and put on the new.

You don't have to reckon a realistic condition. I don't have to reckon that I am a male or a father or a husband as that is my realistic condition. Reckoning is an act of faith and it refers to acting according to MY POSITION in spite of my actual condition as it is by faith I access the power of the indwelling Spirit to make by condition agree with my position.

I have a LEGAL victory over sin "in Christ" but I will never experience a practical victory until I act upon my LEGAL victory by reckoning it so through submitting to the power of the indwelling Spirit as there is no victory over sin with regard to my actual condition whenever I am not walking in the Spirit by faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

If the old man as a matter of ACTUAL CONDITION were crucified rather than merely POSITIONALLY crucified there would be no need to command us to do anything with regard to sin as it would be dead. We are not told to mortify sin, but mortify THE FLESH which is the "old man." It is not abstract sin that is to be crucified daily but YOU - the self-life. The issue is not sin but YOU as you can either choose to "put on" or "put off" through submission to the Spirit or choose not to. YOU are the problem.

That is simply not true as your are presenting it. Its reigning power is only broken "in Christ" positionally and only conditionally ONLY WHEN WE WALK IN HIM through the power of the indwelling Spirit. Fail to walk in him and you will be rudely awakened to the power of the reign of sin. Sin reigns over ever child of God when they are not WALKING in the Spirit, meaning "filled with the Spirit". We "live" in the Spirit but we do not always "walk" in the Spirit (Gal.5:22) and when we are not walking in the Spirit we are experiencing the rule of sin over our lives.




You don't have to reckon a realistic condition. I don't have to reckon that I am a male or a father or a husband as that is my realistic condition. Reckoning is an act of faith and it refers to acting according to MY POSITION in spite of my actual condition as it is by faith I access the power of the indwelling Spirit to make by condition agree with my position.

I have a LEGAL victory over sin "in Christ" but I will never experience a practical victory until I act upon my LEGAL victory by reckoning it so through submitting to the power of the indwelling Spirit as there is no victory over sin with regard to my actual condition whenever I am not walking in the Spirit by faith.

It is true with regard to what has been born of God we have actual victory over sin, but our bodies and our souls are not the object of new birth. What is born of Spirit "is spirit" and our spirit is already glorified and that is why God the Holy Spirit can dwell within us as that is the only kind of sanctuary he can dwell in - a perfectly glorified spirit. So, with regard to the actual condition of our spirit we have complete victory over sin - that is our new creature - our new "inward man" or "new man." But that is not our body or soul and it is our soul that is the battlefied between the regenerated spirit and the outward man - the body of this flesh where the law of sin operates and uses the natural unglorified drives of the flesh to attack our souls.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is true with regard to what has been born of God we have actual victory over sin, but our bodies and our souls are not the object of new birth. What is born of Spirit "is spirit" and our spirit is already glorified and that is why God the Holy Spirit can dwell within us as that is the only kind of sanctuary he can dwell in - a perfectly glorified spirit. So, with regard to the actual condition of our spirit we have complete victory over sin - that is our new creature - our new "inward man" or "new man." But that is not our body or soul and it is our soul that is the battlefied between the regenerated spirit and the outward man - the body of this flesh where the law of sin operates and uses the natural unglorified drives of the flesh to attack our souls.

The problem is that those who take your view are all dichotomists and that does not permit them the ability to properly intepret Romans 7 and other similiar scriptures as those scriptures require a trichotomist view to be properly interpreted and understood.

Paul clearly distinguishes a trichotomist view of man in Romans 7. The personal pronoun "I" is put in direct contrast with "my flesh" or "this body" as the conscious self exercising "will" (v. 18); rationale "mind" (v. 25) and emotions "delight" (v. 22) in distinction to a third aspect he calls the "inward man" (v. 22). In Ephesians Paul distinguishes between the personal pronoun "I" the soul and the "new man" (spirit) versus the "old man" (flesh). Paul makes the same distinction in Hebrews 4:23 and 1 Thes. 5:23.

 

[The Biblicist]

Howe

The lost cannot love their mothers or children?

Can a good man do bad things even though they have the Holy Spirit?

Humanistic love is not the fruit of the Spirit love that comes only from spiritual union with God through the indwelling Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit are not natural born qualities but come only by new birth.

Man comes with a natural kind of love as do animals as many animals are nurturing mothers and fathers to their children.

However, the love produced by and derived from the Spirit of God is superior in nature to any humananistic originating love. If that were not so, then it would be unnecessary to have the fruit of the Spirit which begins with "love" - "But the fruit of the Spirit is love...." (Gal. 5:22)

 

[The Biblicist]

However, the primary aim of the OP is to demonstrate that the sin "nature" is contrasted to a new creation or a righteous "nature" dervied from new birth as the sin nature is derived from natural birth. Both refer to fixed unalterable principles that are moral in character and that is why they are called a "law." The moral character of this unalterable fixed principle is inclusive of its "nature." It is not merely a "law" or fixed ruling principle but it is a moral principle or the "law of SIN" just as the new birth is metaphorically described as writing the "law OF GOD" upon the tables of the heart or inclusive the moral nature of God (love, light, holiness, life, etc.). Hence, a "sin nature" is a fixed principle that operates in keeping with sin just as the new nature is a fixed principle that operates in keeping with righteousness and true holiness. So the term "nature" is perfectly consistent with the Scripture teaching and the use of the term "law" as characterized by moral qualities.

Hence, man is born with a sin "nature" or a fixed unalterable ruling principle that is morally characterized by sin. The new birth makes a partakers of the divine nature or a nature that operates as a fixed unalterable ruling principle that is morally characterized by righteousnessness.

Both are unalterable. The former operates from natural birth and is unalterable by man and eventually must be destroyed in death. The latter operates from new birth and is unalterable condition of the new man or inward man and is the basis for present possession of eternal life as a condition of spirit.

 

[loDebar]

what about the second part, ?

Can a good man do bad things even though they have the Holy Spirit?

Can I do nothing and sin,?

 

[The Biblicist]

what about the second part, ?

Can a good man do bad things even though they have the Holy Spirit?

Can I do nothing and sin,?

I really don't know if I understand what you are attempting to ask but I will take a guess. Yes, a regenerate man who is legally and positionally "good" or in God's sight can do bad things even though they have the Holy Spirit. It is not having a regenerate nature that prevents a saved person from doing bad things. It is not having the Holy Spirit that prevents a regenerate person from doing bad things. What prevents a regenerate person who has the Holy Spirit from doing bad is being UNDER THE CONTROL of the Spirit or walking in the Spirit as that is when "God worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

 

[loDebar]

To be under the Holy Spirit leadership is a surrender by Choice , A pardoned sinner is still a sinner, just relinquishing ones will to the Holy Spirit .The fact that I sin as a believer is continues to be a choice. by acting or not acting.
We are not regenerated as a new creature as much as pardoned sinners. We re only new in our standing as not guilty legal standing. We are new creatures in our attitude toward God. not in our ability to sin again,

 

[The Biblicist]

To be under the Holy Spirit leadership is a surrender by Choice , A pardoned sinner is still a sinner, just relinquishing ones will to the Holy Spirit .

There is no such thing as a pardoned sinner who is not regenerated. Pardoning has to do with justification but regeneration has to do with actual spiritual union between the spirit of the believer and the Holy Spirit.

The fact that I sin as a believer is continues to be a choice. by acting or not acting.

Agreed

We are not regenerated as a new creature as much as pardoned sinners.

Regeneration is what makes a new creature and there is no such thing as a pardoned sinner who is not regenerated or vice versa.

We re only new in our standing as not guilty legal standing.

No, we are a new creation with regard to an actual aspect of our person (our spirit - Jn. 3:6) which restores the moral image of God by union between our spirit and the Spirit of God. Justification, not regeneration deals with our legal standing. There is no such thing as a unregenerate but justified believer any more than there is such a thing as a regenerate but unjustified unbeliever.


Regeneration imparts righteousness to our person (our spirit - Jn. 3:6; Eph. 4:24) whereas justification is the imputation of righteousness that determines are legal standing. Both are essential and occur at initial salvation. Regeneration occurs INSIDE your person wheras justification occurs OUTSIDE your person. Regeneration removes the law of sin from your spirit whereas justification legally removes sin from your position before God.

We are new creatures in our attitude toward God. not in our ability to sin again,

No, we actually have a "new creature" within us called the "inward man" which is our spirit brought into actual spiritual union with the Spirit of God which remains in a fully glorified condition or as Paul puts it "true righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24). We put on this inward man by submission to the Spirit and that is how our minds are renewed and how that inward new condition is reflected in our attitudes,, words and actions.

 

[loDebar]

so we are better than the lost?

 

[The Biblicist]

so we are better than the lost?

With regard to our legal position - yes.
With regard to our regenerate condition - yes

These two differences is what distinguishes between "saved" versus "lost."

With regard to sin - yes and no

Yes, because our sins do not send us to hell but only have temporal consequences with only eternal consequences being loss of rewards or positions whereas with the lost it is everlasting punishment in Gehenna.

No, because we are not sinless in our practice and therefore to the eye of the observer we can look and act no different than a lost man whenever we are not submitting ourselves under the leadership of the Spirit. Yes, since God's response to our sins is "chastisement" as with children and therefore a reaction of love, but to the lost God's response to their sins is "punishment' as with enemies as a reaction of wrath.

 

[loDebar]

Why do you use the word RE generate? Why not generate? a single lost to saved?

 

[The Biblicist]

Why do you use the word RE generate? Why not generate? a single lost to saved?

"re" means "again" which acknowledges that a previous natural generation has occurred but another generation which is supernatural must occur in order to see or enter the kingdom of heaven.