SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
this is going away from the OP
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SIN TO DEATH
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
- Start date
this is going away from the OP
37818
Well-Known Member
1 John 5:16, . . . There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. . . .
37818
Well-Known Member
Acts of the Apostles 5:1-5, But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
What is your position
37818
Well-Known Member
In verse 1 John 5:16 it doesn't specify what sin unto death.
A suicide.
A capital offence.
A sin where God takes the professing believer home.
Well, first of all, the passage does not mean one who sins should not pray for forgiveness, but if a believer commits a sin worthy of death, others should not pray "for that one" (περὶ ἐκείνης). The word ἐκείνης is being used as a personal pronoun here. Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon says, "Equivalent to he, she, it."
No one, the Apostle John nor me, has said that the "sin unto death" is unforgiveable. It is a different sin from the unpardonable sin. In fact, the person who commits the "sin unto death" has already had all his or her sins forgiven by Christ. That's what the cross does. Those who believe we can lose our salvation are saying that Christ's death on the cross was not sufficient to forgive all our sins and keep us forever, but we ourselves must do right in order to keep one's salvation. Talk about one's theology producing one's interpretation!
I certainly haven't done that!
So you don't believe that a Christian can rebel and be in unbelief for a time? When I was called to go to Japan as a missionary, I rebelled and told God no for a week until on Friday I finally yielded. Did I lose and regain my salvation while I rebelled and when I did not believe tha Lord the His plan was best for my life? (And yes, it is a very serious thing for a Christian to rebel against God's will; you are right about that, but it happens all the time to genuine, real believers.)
What rebellious sin in particular is it that you believe causes a Christian to lose his salvation (which was bought by the blood of Christ), and be kicked out of the family of God? In other words, how long does a believer have to rebel before losing his or her salvation?
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Well, first of all, the passage does not mean one who sins should not pray for forgiveness, but if a believer commits a sin worthy of death, others should not pray "for that one" (περὶ ἐκείνης). The word ἐκείνης is being used as a personal pronoun here. Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon says, "Equivalent to he, she, it."
No one, the Apostle John nor me, has said that the "sin unto death" is unforgiveable. It is a different sin from the unpardonable sin. In fact, the person who commits the "sin unto death" has already had all his or her sins forgiven by Christ. That's what the cross does. Those who believe we can lose our salvation are saying that Christ's death on the cross was not sufficient to forgive all our sins and keep us forever, but we ourselves must do right in order to keep one's salvation. Talk about one's theology producing one's interpretation!
I certainly haven't done that!
So you don't believe that a Christian can rebel and be in unbelief for a time? When I was called to go to Japan as a missionary, I rebelled and told God no for a week until on Friday I finally yielded. Did I lose and regain my salvation while I rebelled and when I did not believe tha Lord the His plan was best for my life? (And yes, it is a very serious thing for a Christian to rebel against God's will; you are right about that, but it happens all the time to genuine, real believers.)
What rebellious sin in particular is it that you believe causes a Christian to lose his salvation (which was bought by the blood of Christ), and be kicked out of the family of God? In other words, how long does a believer have to rebel before losing his or her salvation?
Well first of all you would have to overthrow the Godhead to get to one... There is more than one death in scripture... If through ones death they lose their Eternal Salvation, you have the wrong death... You can lose fellowship... That's a death... You can lose discipleship... That's is also a death... You can leave the church... That is also a death... But on the same thought you can come back to your right mind and be restored... That's life... We all walk with feet of clay... Even the best of us... If not for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ alone we would ALL be eternally lost, world without end... Brother Glen
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Well, first of all, the passage does not mean one who sins should not pray for forgiveness, but if a believer commits a sin worthy of death, others should not pray "for that one" (περὶ ἐκείνης). The word ἐκείνης is being used as a personal pronoun here. Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon says, "Equivalent to he, she, it."
No one, the Apostle John nor me, has said that the "sin unto death" is unforgiveable. It is a different sin from the unpardonable sin. In fact, the person who commits the "sin unto death" has already had all his or her sins forgiven by Christ. That's what the cross does. Those who believe we can lose our salvation are saying that Christ's death on the cross was not sufficient to forgive all our sins and keep us forever, but we ourselves must do right in order to keep one's salvation. Talk about one's theology producing one's interpretation!
I certainly haven't done that!
So you don't believe that a Christian can rebel and be in unbelief for a time? When I was called to go to Japan as a missionary, I rebelled and told God no for a week until on Friday I finally yielded. Did I lose and regain my salvation while I rebelled and when I did not believe tha Lord the His plan was best for my life? (And yes, it is a very serious thing for a Christian to rebel against God's will; you are right about that, but it happens all the time to genuine, real believers.)
What rebellious sin in particular is it that you believe causes a Christian to lose his salvation (which was bought by the blood of Christ), and be kicked out of the family of God? In other words, how long does a believer have to rebel before losing his or her salvation?
interesting that the feminine ἐκείνης is used! though it does mean "that one", with a generic meaning in many places
Is is clear that this "sin to death", that John speaks of, is something that he advises (as the Greek does not make this a command) against, as he is certain that this SIN cannot be forgiven.
What you are saying here is THEOLOGY, which is the P in TULIP.
It is also clear that Christians can indeed grow "cold" towards the Lord, to an extent, where their hearts begin to harden and then revolt from the Lord, which is again spiritual
What you said that you personally did, is like Jonah, to disobey the Lord. The passage in Hebrews 3 is much stronger, as you will see in the Greek text.
Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 speak of not entering the Rest of God, which is the Eternal Rest with Him in Heaven, and not our days off on earth to lazy about!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Well first of all you would have to overthrow the Godhead to get to one... There is more than one death in scripture... If through ones death they lose their Eternal Salvation, you have the wrong death... You can lose fellowship... That's a death... You can lose discipleship... That's is also a death... You can leave the church... That is also a death... But on the same thought you can come back to your right mind and be restored... That's life... We all walk with feet of clay... Even the best of us... If not for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ alone we would ALL be eternally lost, world without end... Brother Glen
ah, more conjecture theology!
ah, more conjecture theology!
So you think Eternal Salvation is earned?... You don't have Theology, you have Meology!... Brother Glen
You won't believe Grace, till it hits you in the face!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
really?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
to all on this thread
WHAT does Jesus mean in Revelation 3:16, which is addressed to BELIEVERS?
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth
WHAT does Jesus mean in Revelation 3:16, which is addressed to BELIEVERS?
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth
Um, no, I do not accept the TULIP, and I do not accept the Calvinist doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. I believe the Bible teaches the preservation of the saints by God the Father, not the perseverance of the saints by they themselves. That is a huge difference.
Jesus said that we are in the hands of God, kept by Him (John 10:27-29; cf John 17:11-12). If we are truly in the hands of God, how can we possibly escape? Jesus said that "no man" can "pluck" (ἁρπάσει, snatch) us out of the hand of the Father. Why would that not include the believer himself?
Paul listed a multitude of things which cannot separate us from God's love (Romans 8:38-39). That includes "any other creature." If a believer is a created being by God, he cannot take away or lose his own salvation.
You have not answered my trenchant question. I will rephrase it. How much rebellion is required for a believer to lose his or her salvation? To put it differently, how long would I have had to rebel against the call of God before I lost my salvation? What is the exact condition of a believer which makes him lose his salvation?
The "you" in "vomit you" is singular (σε). So Jesus was speaking to the church as a whole, not to individual believers. A church can be extremely displeasing to Christ, yet still have true believers in it.
So are you saying the church of Laodicea and believers like them are eternally lost?... They are eternally saved and just need to get their act together... Read the rest of it... Throw the baby out with bathwater?... Sanctimonious saints... Ain't... Brother Glen
Sure don't want to be in your church... You're way too judgmental!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
read the Bible, it is FULL of Judgements!!!
You think Ananias and Sapphira might have gone to heaven 'spanked'?
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Because of Acts of the Apostles 5:11, And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
They, Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, had walked by sight and not their faith. 2 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Thessalonians 5:22.
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