Sin. Where did it come from?

[npetreley]

Good questions, np. 1) Jesus didn't sin because He had the mind of God -- the indwelling Holy Spirit -- from birth. If we had been indwelt from birth, I believe there is a lot of sin, perhaps all sin, we might have not gone after to begin with.

2) In heaven, we will be totally indwelt by the mind of God Holy Spirit. The reason God Himself doesn't sin though He could -- is that, knowing everything, He knows the consequences of sin vs. the joys of not sinning.

I don't totally agree with your answer. I don't think it is possible for God to sin, because to do so would be to disagree (or perhaps better: out of alignment) with Himself.

Would you EVER sin if you knew how horrific the consequences are AND you knew how well obedience would come out?

Yes, in fact, I'm sure I have sinned with the full knowledge of the consequences. I simply succumbed to the temptation of the short-term pleasure and willfully ignored the consequences, hoping they'd go away if I didn't think about them.

Regardless, here's my reason for asking the question. Suppose that, in heaven, God will change us in some way such that we have no desire (or ability if you prefer) to sin. You attribute this to bein fully indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but the means isn't important. What's important is that God will flip some sort of virtual switch in our being that will take our desire or ability to sin away.

I believe this is the case, don't you? If it is, then:

If God CAN and WILL remove our desire and/or ability to sin, why didn't He just make us that way to begin with? Why doesn't He do that for us on earth? Why do we have to go through all the struggle and pain here on earth, waiting for that day? Better still, why didn't He simply create Adam and Eve that way?

I believe I know the answers to these questions, and the answers are straight out of the Bible, but I'm curious as to the responses of others.

 

[Amy.G]

If God CAN and WILL remove our desire and/or ability to sin, why didn't He just make us that way to begin with? Why doesn't He do that for us on earth? Why do we have to go through all the struggle and pain here on earth, waiting for that day? Better still, why didn't He simply create Adam and Eve that way?

I believe I know the answers to these questions, and the answers are straight out of the Bible, but I'm curious as to the responses of others.

Great question that I have wondered myself. If you know don't keep us in suspense. Please tell us.

 

[npetreley]

Great question that I have wondered myself. If you know don't keep us in suspense. Please tell us.

LOL! I want to see some answers from others before I give mine.

 

[Amy.G]

LOL! I want to see some answers from others before I give mine.

No fair. I don't have an answer! :tongue3: Oh well, I'll try to be patient.

 

[psalms109:31]

Father of light

Everthing good comes from the Father of light.

Even from the beginning men wanted to blame God for the originalty of sin, that God put it in us.

God did not put it in us it was found, it is time to stop bamming God and realize it just came from us. We can be tempted by the evil one and still not sin

 

[reformedbeliever]

If God CAN and WILL remove our desire and/or ability to sin, why didn't He just make us that way to begin with? Why doesn't He do that for us on earth? Why do we have to go through all the struggle and pain here on earth, waiting for that day? Better still, why didn't He simply create Adam and Eve that way?

Howdy npet. I think the main problem is that we as humans deal with time as if God has to deal with time. With God, all things are a done deal.... its over and done. He is currently present in eternity future and in all time and outside time..... I'm sure there is a better way of putting that... I just don't have the terminology at hand. Omnitemporal? Something like that.
To make it short... Jesus is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. Jesus is God. Jesus was litterally slain before the world was created since He is omnipresent in all time, hense present in eternity future. Adam and Eve could not have chosen differently than they did, or God is not omni..... God.
Everything is completely finished with God. Those who are saved are saved and those who are lost are lost. We have to swallow our pride and just *let* God be God.... as if we could do anything else.:tongue3: God's plan includes all our sin, but yet as His word says...... He is without sin. We just can't wrap our minds around it. He is sovereign and we are responsible because He said so. :thumbs:

 

[npetreley]

No fair. I don't have an answer! :tongue3: Oh well, I'll try to be patient.

Okay, here ya go. I don't know how anyone could argue (convincingly) that God could not possibly have created beings without the ability or desire to sin. As far as we humans are concerned, only Jesus did not sin. So we're tempted to believe that any thinking being with a choice would sin sooner or later. But there has to be a reason why only SOME angels rebelled and others did not, eh?

Regardless, let's assume God could have created all beings without the desire or ability to sin. If God had created satan, Adam and Eve without allowing the desire/ability to sin, then sin would never have occurred, and the consequence would be that we would never really know Him or His glory. That's right. God deliberately allowed sin because sin (indirectly) glorifies God. How could we know anything of His wrath, righteousness, justice, mercy, longsuffering, and more unless there was sin? God has to allow sin and punish it in order to show His righteousness and justice. God has to have mercy on sinful creatures in order to demonstrate His love and mercy. Take away sin, and we have no way of witnessing these attributes of God.

Is this Biblical? You bet. Romans:

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory

There you have it. It's all a part of His plan. God makes known His wrath, power, longsuffering, mercy, and more by enduring the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and by saving vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory. Yes, the above is posed as a "what if", but anyone who reads the whole Bible will see it's not a hypothetical at all. God repeatedly says throughout the OT things like this: "I will raise up these wicked people to punish you, and THEN YOU WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD". There you have a classic example of God raising up wicked people for the purpose of making His wrath, righteousness, power and glory known.

As Proverbs says, "The LORD has made all things for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." Compare that to the above quote from Romans. He also says that He will place His law in our hearts so that we may love Him and live. And so we know His mercy and love.

Now, it may seem blasphemous to say that God ordained sin, even if He didn't force anyone to commit sin. The natural human reaction is to ask, if God did this because sin glorifies God, then why not sin all the more so God is even more glorified? Paul answered a similar silly proposal in Romans:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

 

[skypair]

I don't totally agree with your answer. I don't think it is possible for God to sin, because to do so would be to disagree (or perhaps better: out of alignment) with Himself.



Yes, in fact, I'm sure I have sinned with the full knowledge of the consequences. I simply succumbed to the temptation of the short-term pleasure and willfully ignored the consequences, hoping they'd go away if I didn't think about them.

Regardless, here's my reason for asking the question. Suppose that, in heaven, God will change us in some way such that we have no desire (or ability if you prefer) to sin. You attribute this to bein fully indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but the means isn't important. What's important is that God will flip some sort of virtual switch in our being that will take our desire or ability to sin away.

I believe this is the case, don't you? If it is, then:

If God CAN and WILL remove our desire and/or ability to sin, why didn't He just make us that way to begin with? Why doesn't He do that for us on earth? Why do we have to go through all the struggle and pain here on earth, waiting for that day? Better still, why didn't He simply create Adam and Eve that way?

I believe I know the answers to these questions, and the answers are straight out of the Bible, but I'm curious as to the responses of others.

My answer to you is this --- we will finally be as God is when we arrive at "celestial glory." He will have "near" equals in us to fellowship with. This is what He has wanted all along. But NOT fellowship with those who don't love Him.

My view is that in eternity, God will not be triune anymore -- He will become one Being having worked out His plan for the dimension called "time." When Rev 22:4 says we will see Him face-to-face, I take that to mean that for the first time God Himself will not be a spirit Whom "no one has seen" but an integrated person -- 3 truly in 1. And we likewise.

He'll still be the Father, of course. We will still have much to learn. But imagine, if you will, TRUE children -- like their Father in EVERY respect!! It sends chills down my spine!! But THAT is why we won't sin anymore, IMO.

skypair

 

[psalms109:31]

Creation

God created both good and the wicked.

Where they created to be wicked no, but they were created by Him.

Wickedness was found in them.

The only creation i know that is good is Jesus, ever other man is wicked and they will pay for thier sins.

I was one of God creation that is wicked and being held for destruction, just like ever one of you. None of us can even look upon God for your wickedness and live.

Who can save us from this body of death that is being held for destruction, praise be to Jesus.

How can we stand before God

20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me;
if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.

21 "Although I am blameless,
I have no concern for myself;
I despise my own life.

22 It is all the same; that is why I say,
'He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.'

23 When a scourge brings sudden death,
he mocks the despair of the innocent.

24 When a land falls into the hands of the wicked,
he blindfolds its judges.
If it is not he, then who is it?

25 "My days are swifter than a runner;
they fly away without a glimpse of joy.

26 They skim past like boats of papyrus,
like eagles swooping down on their prey.

27 If I say, 'I will forget my complaint,
I will change my expression, and smile,'

28 I still dread all my sufferings,
for I know you will not hold me innocent.

29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?

30 Even if I washed myself with soap [Or snow]
and my hands with washing soda,

31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.

32 "He is not a man like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.

33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,

34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.

35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

We have Jesus to plead our case, trust in Jesus. Do not think that you not the wicked

I want one of you wicked people to say you deserve Jesus and you are the one God is going to show mercy on

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

What makes you think that you are a vessel of mercy and gave you the hope of Jesus and not the world.

God will show mercy on who He decides and He decided to show mercy on believers, everyone else is a vessel of destruction

 

[skypair]

Everthing good comes from the Father of light.

Even from the beginning men wanted to blame God for the originalty of sin, that God put it in us.

God did not put it in us it was found, it is time to stop bamming God and realize it just came from us. We can be tempted by the evil one and still not sin

AMEN!! The origins of sin is that we are created like unto God -- independent, free, having choices.

God knows EVERYTHING about evil -- that's why He won't sin or cause sin or create sin. But giving ignorant man free will (like God has) is like giving a 5 year old a Skilsaw! Yeah, Skilsaws can be used for good -- if you know what you are doing!!

npetreley, stick with the facts. Wrath and destruction are a NATURAL consequence of sin. God doesn't have to "send" them -- anything outside His ordinances is causes them!

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello psalms109:31

God created both good and the wicked.

Where they created to be wicked no, but they were created by Him.

Wickedness was found in them.

OK..let me ask again. Where was wickedness found? Who put it where it was found?

 

[Amy.G]

My brain hurts. Can this question even be answered on this side of heaven? It's kind of like asking "who made God".

 

[Jarthur001]

My brain hurts. Can this question even be answered on this side of heaven? It's kind of like asking "who made God".

What? You mean who made sin? Amy, the answer is easy.
I also knew who placed the sin in mans heart.

 

[Amy.G]

What? You mean who made sin? Amy, the answer is easy.
I also knew who placed the sin in mans heart.

Help me Jarthur! Who? Who? :tongue3:

 

[Marcia]

My view is that in eternity, God will not be triune anymore -- He will become one Being having worked out His plan for the dimension called "time." When Rev 22:4 says we will see Him face-to-face, I take that to mean that for the first time God Himself will not be a spirit Whom "no one has seen" but an integrated person -- 3 truly in 1. And we likewise.

He'll still be the Father, of course.
skypair

I find this statement very disturbing. God does not change! If he could change his triune nature, he would not be God! An "integrated person?" God doesn't need to change to anything different - He does not change, according to the Bible.

 

[Brother Bob]

Anyway, they were three before man and time, why would it change after time? He said, let us make man.

 

[Jarthur001]

Help me Jarthur! Who? Who? :tongue3:

oh...well....you see its...aaaaaw....its..

man

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally Posted by skypair
My view is that in eternity, God will not be triune anymore -- He will become one Being having worked out His plan for the dimension called "time." When Rev 22:4 says we will see Him face-to-face, I take that to mean that for the first time God Himself will not be a spirit Whom "no one has seen" but an integrated person -- 3 truly in 1. And we likewise.

He'll still be the Father, of course.
skypair

I find this statement very disturbing. God does not change! If he could change his triune nature, he would not be God! An "integrated person?" God doesn't need to change to anything different - He does not change, according to the Bible.

Oh my yes. I would like to see support from the Bible on this. To make things up about God, frankly is disturbing. When I read that, my eyes about popped out.

 

[Jarthur001]

Anyway, they were three before man and time, why would it change after time? He said, let us make man.

I agree. To change in anyway would mean God was not whole now.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, thank the good Lord James. Its Christmas time I guess so we agree.