Sincerity

[Skandelon]

I'd say it is unbelievable, but it's not.

But who granted you the ability to believe it? :laugh:

 

[Protestant]

I never said a believing repentance individual WOULD be sent to hell, I said they still deserve it.

This issue is too important to neglect.

Deserve: “do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment).”

In your erroneous theological system repentant believers are STILL DESERVING of punishment.

The infallible Word of God contradicts you:

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

Nowhere in Scripture is it said repentant believers still deserve Hell.

Repentant believers have the infallible assurance of Almighty God that they have been saved from the wrath of God and will never be condemned.

Therefore, they are NOT ‘still deserving of Hell.’

It is only the unrepentant unbelievers who shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on them.

It is they alone who ‘deserve’ Hell.

See, here is your problem, you are confounding two issues. You are confusing faith in God for Salvation and Salvation itself. Man can trust God to save him, but whether he is saved or not is totally dependent on God.

This is yet an extension of the previous error you teach.

Faith is the free gift of God to the Elect.

They are the ‘called according to His purpose.’

This gift is of faith is called the ‘faith of the Elect.’

The Elect are justified by faith in the perfect work and person of Christ.

The Lord is both the just and justifier.

Those whom He justifies He sanctifies and glorifies.

Therefore, God has inextricably linked man’s free gift of faith with his ultimate glorification.

Nowhere does Scripture intimate that the faith of the Elect is not sufficient to give full assurance of salvation.

This is because the believer's assurance is due to the infallible promise and perfect work of God.

Salvation is the eternal gift of God to those undeserving of His choosing.

There is no ‘and, if or maybe’.

The man who trusts in God his Savior has no cause to doubt whether or not he is being saved, as you boldly and brashly claim…..’whether he is saved or not…….’

The Elect do not deserve salvation.....they are GUARANTEED salvation, and Christ is their Guarantor.

 

[Skandelon]

In your erroneous theological system repentant believers are STILL DESERVING of punishment.

You did it again. You reword what I stated in order to draw a different conclusion than the one I already clearly drew. I stated that one doesn't earn or merit forgiveness by asking for it. One doesn't deserve or merit being saved BECAUSE of repentance. But once he does repent and believe, most certainly He is imputed with the righteousness of Christ, forgiven and justified BECAUSE GOD IS GRACIOUS...and therefore the man is NO LONGER DESERVING PUNISHMENT, but forgiveness is not granted on the merit of the man's request or desire to be forgiven, but on the BASIS of God Grace ALONE.

Please listen carefully. The prodigal son didn't deserve to be forgiven his debt (mercy) and restored as an heir (grace), on the basis that he came home. He deserved to be flogged or stoned. He got mercy and grace instead. What he GOT he did not deserve. His return home didn't earn him the reception of his father. That reception, that forgiveness, that unmerited favor, that restoration was ALL OF GRACE.

Now, you can reword that to draw false conclusion again, and I will correct you again. But why waste your time attacking a strawman yet a third time? Why not instead engage with my actual point of view?

 

[quantumfaith]

Still have not seen a reply as to who is wrong, God or Websters?

 

[Skandelon]

Look at from your Calvinistic perspective, Protestant.

Do you believe that you deserve to be saved because God regenerated you and made you righteous enough to deserve salvation? Or do you believe that Christ merited your salvation by HIS righteousness and that HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS was imputed to your account by Grace through faith? See the difference?

 

[The Biblicist]

God does not lie, and He always keeps his promises.

This is not an issue whether or not God keeps His promises. The "if" sets forth CONDITIONS under which this occurs and you are assuming the old heart is what meets those conditions.

You like to quote some of the texts regarding the need of a new heart, but not others. Why not quote ones like:

Ezekiel 18:31:
Throw off all the transgressions you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.
Or

James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

Or

1 Peter 5:6:
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that He may exalt you in due time.

Again you like to quote some texts, and ignore the ones that clearly reveal the human responsibility in the process of gaining a new heart.

So your answer is simply pit scripture against scripture???

James and Peter are addressing regenerated persons who have the HOly Spirit and thus ability to do these things. So using these scriptures to simply pit against Ezek 36:26 or Deuteronomy 29:4 is the cultic method of hermeneutics or the method men use when they can't answer and which method abuses all texts concerned just as you have done here.

In Regard to Ezekiel 18:31 this command is no more possible for any man than the command to keep the Law "do this and live."

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Pr 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?


In addition your use of Ezekiel 18 and the inference you are drawing from it directly contradicts Deuteronomy 5:29; 29:4 and Ezek. 36:26-27. I said your intended "inference" not the text. The text does not contradict as the text simply places their duty before them as does "do this and live" and yet neither is possible.

Furthermore, you avoid answering my question. If the old heart can be enable to OBEY THE GOSPEL then why can't it continue to be enabled by the same gospel it has embraced????? Why is "new birth" or a "a new heart" or a "new spirit" necessary(2 Cor. 3:3; Ezek. 36:26-27 - both NEW COVENANT descriptions of salvation).

 

[Skandelon]

This is not an issue whether or not God keeps His promises.

If you keep reading past the first sentence you will see that I said, 'I think we would both agree on that point. However..." AFter the word 'however' I address our point of contention, but you skipped that part.

So your answer is simply pit scripture against scripture???

Is that what you think this list of scripture is? Or do you think it helps us to better understand the proof texts you've presented. You proof texts only speak of our need for a new heart, they say nothing about some supernatural irresistibly application of a new heart upon preselected individuals. That is just what you READ INTO those proof texts. These text are to show you that man is still RESPONSIBLE, and that your proof texts don't say enough to draw your conclusions.

James and Peter are addressing regenerated persons who have the HOly Spirit and thus ability to do these things.

Two problems with this:

1. Why would regenerated persons need to humble themselves, or get a new heart? Isn't that something that God already did to them irresistibly?

2. Your system still requires a certain 'measure of Grace' for even believers to 'resist temptation' and to do what is right in any given situation (as we have discussed in detail before), so this response doesn't answer the problem.

In Regard to Ezekiel 18:31 this command is no more possible for any man than the command to keep the Law "do this and live."

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Pr 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Again, you are confounding the matter by relating man's inability to clean his own heart to man's inability to ask God to clean it for him. "TURN TO HIM and YOU WILL BE CLEANED," is much different from "CLEAN IT YOURSELF."

Proof that one cannot preform open heart surgery on himself, is not proof that he can't respond to the offer of a heart surgeon who expresses a genuine desire to help.

 

[Protestant]

You did it again. You reword what I stated in order to draw a different conclusion than the one I already clearly drew.

On the contrary, you have clearly stated ‘they still deserve Hell.’

Originally Posted by Skandelon
I never said a believing repentance individual WOULD be sent to hell, I said they still deserve it.

That statement alone is enough to place you outside the orthodox Body of Christ.

No matter how you attempt to whitewash this outrageous teaching, you cannot make it go away.

You cannot find one verse in your Bible version which corroborates your statement.

I will reiterate the Good News for you and others who are confused.

The deserved punishment of repentant believers has already been satisfied (‘propitiated’) by Christ.

Therefore, they DO NOT STILL DESERVE HELL.

Unrepentant unbelievers DESERVE Hell.

I stated that one doesn't earn or merit forgiveness by asking for it. One doesn't deserve or merit being saved BECAUSE of repentance. But once he does repent and believe, most certainly He is imputed with the righteousness of Christ, forgiven and justified BECAUSE GOD IS GRACIOUS...and therefore the man is NO LONGER DESERVING PUNISHMENT, but forgiveness is not granted on the merit of the man's request or desire to be forgiven, but on the BASIS of God Grace ALONE.

You are now attempting to back-peddle from your obvious misinterpretation of Biblical truth seen in your previous statement.

Furthermore, your teaching on the nature of grace is also misguided and erroneous.

You have consistently denied that man has nothing to offer God to gain His favor or mercy, including repentance and faith.

Scripture consistently declares repentance and faith are God’s gifts to man, not man’s gifts to God.

All Arminians, including yourself, deny the biblical doctrine of Election to salvation contingent on nothing man does or can do.

It is the Lord who, in eternity, has chosen which sinners He will save.

It is the Lord who satisfies all the conditions necessary to salvation.

He is the cause.

The Elect are the recipients.

The eternal truth that Election, Calling, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification are ALL of grace finds no place in your Arminian/Pelagian theology.

 

[Protestant]

Please listen carefully. The prodigal son didn't deserve to be forgiven his debt (mercy) and restored as an heir (grace), on the basis that he came home. He deserved to be flogged or stoned. He got mercy and grace instead. What he GOT he did not deserve. His return home didn't earn him the reception of his father. That reception, that forgiveness, that unmerited favor, that restoration was ALL OF GRACE.

I have already addressed your misinterpretation of this parable.

NOWHERE in this parable is it taught or stated that 'he deserved to be flogged or stoned.'

Please cite the text which proves your cause.

The simple, poignant, yet profound truth Christ teaches may be summarized as follows:

God the Father welcomes ALL repentant sinners, no matter who they are, no matter how heinous their sins.

In your extraordinary eisegesis you would have the father add, "You know, my son, I should really flog or stone you to death for what you done, but instead I have decided to show you my gracious side. Aren't you grateful?"

 

[preacher4truth]

On the contrary, you have clearly stated ‘they still deserve Hell.’

Exactly. You quoted his actual statement but be assured, he will not be held accountable and will send up flares and all types of diversions. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

On the contrary, you have clearly stated ‘they still deserve Hell.’

They do IF NOT for God's grace.

Please listen. Asking for forgiveness DOENS'T merit being forgiven. True or False.

You are now attempting to back-peddle from your obvious misinterpretation of Biblical truth seen in your previous statement.

Back peddling? What are you talking about? You haven't understood what I've said, obviously, so how can you even know what I'm back peddling from? How about you attempt to restate my views in your own words and give a FAIR and objective assessment, instead of straw man attacks?

If you think people earn or merit salvation by their faith and repentance then I assure you that you are the one who isn't orthodox. Pay attention to what I'm writing and stop with the non-sense.

 

[Skandelon]

NOWHERE in this parable is it taught or stated that 'he deserved to be flogged or stoned.'

Please cite the text which proves your cause.

The simple, poignant, yet profound truth Christ teaches may be summarized as follows:

God the Father welcomes ALL repentant sinners, no matter who they are, no matter how heinous their sins.

Again, you are NOT LISTENING. He deserved to be punished for squandering his father's inheritance. He had sinned against his father, as the passage states. Upon his return home he deserved punishment but got grace. Did he earn that grace by coming home and asking for it? NOOOOOOOO! That is the point. The decision of the Father to accept him, to not punish him and to restore him was ALL OF GRACE.

Understand?

 

[preacher4truth]

They do IF NOT for God's grace.

Oh, now you're trying to qualify your statement? Why not just admit you've made another theological gaffe instead, and that you were called on it?

Please listen. Asking for forgiveness DOENS'T merit being forgiven. True or False.

'Please listen'? Like you're teaching something profound? This has nothing to do with your gaffe. You said 'a believing repentance <sic> individual' let's not twist that as if you meant something else or something additional.

Back peddling? What are you talking about?

He's talking about you and what you are doing right now.

If you think people earn or merit salvation by their faith and repentance then I assure you that you are the one who isn't orthodox. Pay attention to what I'm writing and stop with the non-sense.

Another straw man diversion? Say it isn't so! He doesn't teach anything like that. I'd have to say skan it's you that has been caught in nonsense. Own up. :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

Oh, now you're trying to qualify your statement?

I can see why you'd rather not debate God and Webster anymore, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about...

I'm arguing for salvation by Grace, rather then meritorious works. That should be something Calvinists would affirm, unless you think faith and repentance merited salvation? Even faith and repentance which flows from the irresistible work of regenerative grace would not merit salvation according to Calvinistic scholars, so you guys aren't even supporting your own dogma.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes or No

Does asking for forgiveness for your sin merit your being forgiven by God? In other words, does repentance merit forgiveness?

I'll await your answer.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes or No

Does asking for forgiveness for your sin merit your being forgiven by God? In other words, does repentance merit forgiveness?

I'll await your answer.

When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." Acts 11:18

Repentance is God's gift and leads to life.

But go start another thread, you've derailed this long enough. :thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." Acts 11:18

Repentance is God's gift and leads to life.

So, your answer is 'no," repentance does not merit forgiveness?

 

[preacher4truth]

So, your answer is 'no," repentance does not merit forgiveness?

Is that what you conclude with said passage? Like I've requested, go start another thread and answer, you're derailing this one.

Your a moderator and are breaking BB rules that you expect others to keep.

 

[Skandelon]

Is that what you conclude with said passage?

So, you are refusing to answer a simple yes or no question related to salvation and grace? Interesting.

Like I've requested, go start another thread and answer, you're derailing this one.

Your a moderator and are breaking BB rules that you expect others to keep.

Follow back through the thread, P4T, and you will see this is very much related to your OP. This portion of the conversation started when I agreed that we are not saved on the basis of our sincerity, remember? Protestant and I are still having a discussion regarding that comment, which is obviously related to the OP. Now, if you'd like to request for the Moderator to close the thread, be my guest, but you can't stop me from discussing the topic.

Are you done with Webster and God?

 

[preacher4truth]

So, you are refusing to answer a simple yes or no question related to salvation and grace? Interesting.

Is that what you conclude with said passage? What does the passage conclude? That you came up with 'so is that a no' is saddening because the passage comes to no such conclusion. But you routinely come up with such false conclusions when interpreting Scripture.

Then in addition to this we see your thing is to malign someone based upon totally unfounded accusations, just like above. To top that off with further absurdities nothing in the OP is supported in your last several replies. You're derailing the thread.

The bottom line is witnessed in post #8, boasting in knowing God = your supplied dictionary definition, and this shows your belief that boasting in knowing God is a personal achievement and a personal ability:

"Let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD."

Boasting - "talk with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities."

But Scripture denies your dissident beliefs. There is no boasting, and it is 'not of yourselves', soteriological truths you deny in your teaching and simply do not understand. Your above post denies these truths.

Now moderators I request this thread be closed.