Sinless Perfection

[Craigbythesea]

Scooter

,

Thank you for sharing this quote with us. Unfortunately, however, Spurgeon fails to tell us who sold Paul into bondage to sin . Did Jesus sell Paul into bondage to sin ? Or perhaps did Satan find that he had the power to overthrow the atonement and redemption of Paul by Christ ? Perhaps Spurgeon, like many others, had that nightmare where Paul’s mother in law sold him into bondage to sin . Whatever, it is a good example of the most horrible error one can fall into when he takes the doctrine of total to depravity to its most extreme end and does not think things through . Even if it could be proved that all Jews, prior to salvation, are 100% depraved, such a proof would have no bearing on Romans 7:14-25 because the Jew being portrayed there is merely a rhetorical Jew depicting the most Godly Jew that any Jew could imagine himself to be. And our Apostle skillfully reveals to that Jew that even he is in bondage to sin and in need of the redemptive work of Christ that can be his only by the grace of God through a personal faith in Christ.

Romans 7 is a masterpiece of skill and ingenuity from the first word to the last. What a pity it is that many have found its only value to be a proof that the atonement of Christ was ineffectual to save sinners from the power of sin.

A thought to ponder:

Who is the first husband on Rom. 7:3?

1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Dr. Bob]

Notice the impact of John's writing. When you say you do NOT sin, it is not YOU that is a liar. You are calling God a liar.

That is really strong language. I sure would not want to say I have not sinned and thereby call God a liar. No way, Jose . .

 

[scooter]

CBTS,

When I see Spurgeon in heaven, I'll be sure to ask him why he didn't "think things through"!

By the way, Spurgeon didn't think "the atonement of Christ was ineffectual to save sinners from the power of sin." Those are your words, not his.

 

[Link]

Check out Romans 8:2, which is very pertinent to this discussion:


"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Tere were no chapter divisions in the original, and Romans 8:2 refers back to the argument in Romans 7. I can

demonstrate that the "law of sin and death" that Paul was freed from is what he was talking about in Romans 7.

Look at Romans 7: 23.
"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the

law of sin which is in my members."


Verse 24 and other verses also mention 'death' in relation to the law of sin. So in chapter 8, Paul tells us

that he is free from the law of sin and death, which he described in Romans 7. The law of sin and death was

that law that made him do the things that he did not want to do and to do the things that he did not want.

Is Romans 7 describing Paul? Perhaps. But if it is, it is Paul under the law of the spirit of life in Christ

Jesus. Romans 8 describes Paul as freed from the law of sin and death.

Some think the 'I' in Romans 7 is a rhetorical 'I'. I do not agree. Paul said he was blameless in his legal

righteousness before his conversion. A scholarly friend of mine answered my question once, when I asked how the

Psalmists could claim to be blameless if the New Testament teaches that all have sinned. He explained that

being 'blameless' under the law means that if you sin, you offer the appropriate sacrifice or atonement. Paul

may have been very careful to offer sacrifices required by the law if he sinned. But before his conversion, he

missed the point about faith.

Notice the words of Jesus here snipped from John 8:34-36

"Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.... If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free

indeed."

[words removed from the verses signified by '...'.] Isn't the implication that one who is freed from sin does

not commit it any more?

Consider these words from Romans 6
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God,

as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


John teaches us that God's commandments are not burdensome. Jesus burden is light. Romans 6:13, shown above,

commands us not to yeild our members (body parts) as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. If we have been

given grace to obey this commandment, do we not have grace to refrain from all sin?

Verse 14 says that sin shall not have dominion over you. This contradicts the idea that Christians can't help

but sin. I used to think that being 'under grace' meant you would be forgiven if you sin. Then I noticed in

chapter 5, that as sin reigned unto death, but not grace is to reign unto righeousness. Grace reigns! Grace is

not just mercy on us for our sin. It is also related to the idea of God gifting and empowering us to do

something. Paul outlabored the other apostles- yet not he but the grace that was with him. Charismata--gifts--

is related closely to the word 'grace.' Healing the sick, raising the dead, teaching, prophecy, etc. are

expressions of God's grace working through people.

God related grace to the concept of power/strength when He told Paul "My grace is sufficient for thee, for My

strength[power] is made perfect in weakness.

So sin is not to have dominion over us. We are now under grace and the power of God works in us to will and to

do according to His good pleasure. This is different from the man under the law of sin, who finds a law working

in his members causing him to do the opposite of the good he wills to do.

Can Christians sin? Of course. The New Testament makes provision for forgiveness of Christians who sin through

confession and repentance. Christ taught brethren to confront a brother who sins against them. He also taught

the Lord's prayer, which contains a request for forgiveness.

Consider Paul's words in I Corinthians 10:
12. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer

you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be

able to bear it.

This passage stands as a warning to those who think they have acheived a 'state' of Christian perfection.

Overcoming sin is not a one-time experience. It is a daily struggle that God empowers us to win if we obey Him

and yeild to His grace. Paul warns the man who stands to take heed lest he fall. Those who think they have

arrived at a sinless state would do well to read this verse.

Verse 13 shows us that the believer has power to escape from every single temptation that he faces. So it is not true that Christians must sin.

 

[Watchman]

Brethren, I keep having computer problems here, and I have to be gone for several day because of the Holiday.
My messages keep disappearing, I hope this goes through.

 

[Bluefalcon]

The apparent contradiction in Paul, if one sees it that way, is also in John.

1Jo 1:8* If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 2:1* My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 3:8* He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:9* Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I can't count the number of times I've heard a pastor say the present tense of POIEI in 1 Jn. 3:9 means "keep on doing" sin. Is that the opinion of everyone here? That's only one difficult part of the 1 Jn. 3:9. The other has to do with the clause: "and he cannot sin."

Yours,

Bluefalcon

 

[Craigbythesea]

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. But when [not subjunctive "if" like possible not to, but 3rd class conditional "when"] any sins, we [believers] have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Short Greek lesson: I John 2:1-2 is a 3rd class conditional sentence. We think "if" we sin; the Greek says "when" we sin. We will.

Dr. Bob,

You are very much mistaken here! We do have in this verse a 3rd class conditional sentence, but the fact that we have here a third class conditional sentence does NOT mean that we should translate the Greek word ean as “when,” but rather it indicates that we should translate it here as “if,” as we find it so translated in EVERY major translation of the Bible:

-- King James Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

-- New King James Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

-- American Standard Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

-- Revised Standard Version
1 John 2:1 MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- New American Standard Bible, 1995
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- New Jerusalem Bible
1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to prevent you from sinning;
but if anyone does sin,
we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ, the upright.

-- New American Bible
1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.

-- New Revised Standard Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

--English Standard Version
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

--Holman Christian Standard Bible
My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ the righteous One.

-- Young's Bible
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,

-- Darby's Bible
1 John 2:1 My children, these things I write to you in order that ye may not sin; and if any one sin, we have a patron with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- Weymouth's New Testament
1 John 2:1 Dear children, I write thus to you in order that you may not sin. If any one sins, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the righteous;

-- Webster's Bible
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye sin not. And if any man sinneth, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

-- New Living Translation
1 John 2:1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if you do sin, there is someone to plead for you before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God completely.*

-- International Standard Version
1 John 2:1 My little children, I'm writing these things to you so that you might not sin. Yet if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, one who is righteous.

-- William's NewTestament
1 John 2:1 My dear<a> children, I am writing you this so that you may not sin; yet if anyone ever<b> sins, we have One who pleads<c> our case with the Father, Jesus Christ, One who is righteous.

-- Montgomery New Testament
1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to you that you may not continue to sin, but if anyone sin, we ever have a Comforter before the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

 

[Craigbythesea]

And not only do all the major translations of the Bible agree that ean should be translated here “if” rather than “when,” so do the following additional authorities:

A.T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., LL.D.
“If any man sin (ean tis hamartēi). Third-class condition with ean and second aorist (ingressive) active subjunctive again, ‘if one commit sin.’”

H. E. Dana, Th.D., Professor of New Testament Interpretation in the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth Texas, and Julius R. Mantey, Th.D., D.D., Professor of New Testament Interpretation in the Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Chicago, Illinois.
“The third-class condition begins with ei-an. In the apodosis of sentences in the second and fourth classes an occurs most of the time, but it is not necessary according to Koine usage. As we have pointed out in our discussion of an in the section on particles, it implies doubt or indefiniteness. Its very presence in a sentence indicates lack of certainty on the part of the one using it.”

F.F. Bruce, Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at Manchester University
“While insisting, against the false teachers, that it is wrong to say either that ‘we have no sin’ or that ‘we have not sinned’, John does not wish to give his readers the idea that sin may be regarded as a normal phenomenon in the Christian life. Far from it: the main purpose of his touching the subject at all is to put them on their guard against committing sin. Sin, indeed, is so thoroughly uncharacteristic of the Christian life that a life which is marked by sin cannot be called Christian; this is a point to which John returns in chapter 3.”

And Bruce translates 1 John 2:1, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

Stephen S. Smalley, B.D. Eden Theological Seminary; M. A. and Ph.D. Cambridge University
“The writer has already put the negative point: he is writing to discourage sinful behavior of any kind. Now, in typically balanced style, he deals with the problem of sin positively: if anyone shouldsin, God has made provision for this. Where as in the first part of the v John is anticipating too lenient an attitude toward sin, in the second half he is countering the possibility of too harsh a view. The fact that once again the aorist tense in used (ean tis hamarte, “if any shoulds sin”) indicates that acts of sin are in mind, not the state of sin. . . .”

I. Howard Marshall, Senior Lecturer in New Testament Exegesis at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland
“It was possible that the readers might interpret what John had just written with its emphasis on the fact that Christians were not free from sin as a license to sin. If sin was a characteristic of Christians, and forgiveness was freely available, the readers might well have reacted like the people who asked, "Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase?" (Rom. 6:1). John, therefore, had to make it quite clear that his purpose was that Christians should not sin. Unconfessed sin was incompatible with fellowship with God. John's aim, therefore, was that his readers would both recognize their sin and confess it-and also seek to live without sin. It is easy to live without sin if one denies that one’s acts are really sinful. John wished that his readers would recognize the all-pervasive character of sin—and yet live without sinning.”

Raymond E. Brown, Auburn Distinguished Professorship of Biblical Studies at Union Theological Seminary
“If the epistolary author were interested solely in refuting bad secessionist theology that could pervert his adherents, he might have been satisfied with the three conditional sentences expressing his disapproval. But he is also interested in communicating to his adherents the positive thrust of the Johannine tradition on these issues made obscure by secessionist propaganda. And so the author has matched every conditional sentence of disapproval with a conditional sentence of approval. The three approved conditions may be arranged thus:

(a) PROTASES
7ab: But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in light
9a. But if we confess our sins
2:lb: But if anyone does sin

(b) COMPOUND APODOSES
7c: we are joined in communion with one another
7de: and the blood of Jesus, His Son, cleanses us from all sin

9bc: He who is reliable and just win forgive us our sins
9d: and cleanse us from all wrongdoing

2:1cd: we have a Paraclete in the Father’s presence, Jesus Christ, the one who is just,
2:2abc: And he himself is an antonement for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world
(The translation used here is that of Raymond Brown)

A. E. Brooke, D.D., Fellow, Dean and Divinity Lecturer, King’s College, Cambridge
1. The recognition of the universality of sin, from which even Christians are not actually free, might lead to a misconception of its true character. Men might easily pass too lenient judgments on its heinousness, and ignore the responsibility of those who give way to its promptings. If it is impossible for any one, even the Christian, to escape sin, why condemn with such uncompromising severity failures for which men cannot reasonably be held responsible ? Why strive so earnestly against what is inevitable ? The writer hastens to warn his readers against such conclusions. Sin is wholly antagonistic to the Christian ideal; his whole object in trying to set out that ideal more clearly is to prevent sin, not to condone it. His aim in writing is to bring about ‘sinlessness.’ And the Christian scheme includes means by which such an aim may be gradually realized. Whenever any one gives way to any act of sin, such as must interrupt the intercourse and fellowship between men and God, which it is the great aim of Christ's work to establish, the means exist by which this fellowship may be restored. Christians have an " advocate " with the Father who is able and willing to plead their cause, to present their case truly and completely, to transact their business, to speak for them, if non-legal phrases convey the meaning more clearly. And His mediation is addressed to one who is Father of both Advocate and suppliants, as eager as they can be that the fellowship should be restored, on the only terms on which such fellowship can be restored, the removal of the sin which has interrupted it. . . . The sentence introduced by these words [ kai ean ] is not contrasted with the preceding, but added to it ‘as a continuous piece of one message.’ The writer’s object is to produce ‘sinlessness.’ And this is not a fruitless aspiration after an ideal which cannot possibly be realized, for the means of dealing with the sin which he desires to combat are at hand.”

 

[Craigbythesea]

Mr. Falcon,

I would be the first to agree that 1 John has its difficult moments, and 1 John 3:9 is perhaps the most difficult of them. Brooke (ICC series) paraphrases this verse:

"He who is begotten of God must be in character like God who begat him. Sin, which is of the Devil, finds no pace in him."

The first two chapters of 1 John present for me no serious difficulty when the theology of those to whom it was written is taken into careful consideration.

I have studied hundreds of works on Paul’s theology (indeed, I have about 320 volumes of Pauline theology in my home library, including 233 commentaries on Romans, and the “apparent contradictions” are really misunderstandings on the part of the readers.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Notice the impact of John's writing. When you say you do NOT sin, it is not YOU that is a liar. You are calling God a liar.

That is really strong language. I sure would not want to say I have not sinned and thereby call God a liar. No way, Jose . .

Two Points:

1. No one here is saying that they have not sinned.

2. You are not only taking 1 John 1:8 out of context, but you have radically misunderstood John’s words. And I certainly agree that such a careless handling of the word of God is a willful sin

. Many exegetical commentaries on this epistle are readily available, and just about any of them will very quickly get you on course.

1 John 1:8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. (NASB, 1995)

 

[olderbutbetter]

James 5:16 saya"Therefore confess you sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Since it tells us to confess our sins to one another and to pray for one another, then I don't think anyone is without sin that's why we need to pray for one another.

1John 1:9 says If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It does not say we will never sin again but to confess and he will forgive.

The Lords Prayer, Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. 17) For God sent not His Son into the World to condemn the World but that the world through Him might be saved.

The Bible is all about sin and the forgivness of sin, that's the reason Jesus suffered and died for us. It does not say that we will forever be with out sin. I don't believe it says that anywhere in the Bible. But we as Christians are supposed to strive to be that which God wants us to be. It any one believes they are without sin because they have come to know Christ, then they are sadly mistaken. AS is says in Romans - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - so you see we all fall short - we all sin and if it weren't for the death of Jesus - there would be no hope for any of us.

I Thess. 5:18 says to give thanks ; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

Is not the Bible all about doing the will of God? Will we forever be without sin? Not until we see the face of Jesus. We are human, sinless perfection - I think not. From what I have read, you all are pretty much saying the same thing and arguing against yourselves. Jesus came to save us but He didn't say we wouldn't sin again, just that we can be forgiven.

Jesus knows my name, He knows my every thought, He sees my every tear that falls and he hears me when I call. We are fearfully and wonderfully made and as long as we focus on the name of Jesus, our sins maybe less but sinless perfection - never because we are too human. When I see Jesus - then I will be totally and completely without sin, but until then - I have confessed my sin and I have asked forgiveness but perfection - I will not obtain until God takes me home.

 

[HankD]

Dear CBTS,

Are you sinlessly perfect?

HankD

 

[untangled]

There is none righteous except One.

 

[AVL1984]

And here all this time I thought I had come to the Sinless Perfection Board!

Seriously, no one, regardless of what they tell you, is living a sinless life. All we can do is strive to be the type of Christian examples Christ would have us to be.

 

[Craigbythesea]

olderbutbetter,

Welcome to the Baptist Board! Thank you for sharing your thought with us.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by HankD:
Dear CBTS,

Are you sinlessly perfect?

HankD

Dear Hank,

I am not arguing for any of the 187 (+ or -) published theories of sinless perfection. I am, however, arguing for and defending the accurate exegesis and exposition of those passages of Scripture that have a direct bearing on the doctrine of the efficacy of the atonement of Christ. And it is my personal opinion that all Biblical doctrines should be evaluated on the basis of what the Bible says, rather than upon my personal experience at any given moment in my many years of Christian experience.

CBTS

 

[scooter]

CBTS,

I agree. Let God's word speak for itself!

P.S. You adroitly sidestepped Hank's question. Perhaps you have a future in politics?!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by untangled:
There is none righteous except One.

This is an Old Testament quote speaking of the situation at the time of the quote. It has no bearing upon any other Old Testament periods. If it did, it would contradict other Old Testament passages, beginning in Gen. 7:1,

1. Then the LORD said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time.

Paul uses this quote hyperbolically in Rom. 3:10 to convict the Jews of their need of being justified by faith. It has absolutely no bearing upon the state of those who have been justified by faith. If it did, it would contradict other New Testament passages, such as Rom. 5:17-18,

18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

(All scriptures NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Seriously, no one, regardless of what they tell you, is living a sinless life.

Only God knows for sure.

All we can do is strive to be the type of Christian examples Christ would have us to be.

And that striving must include a very careful and prayerful look at the scriptures bearing on the doctrine of the efficacy of the atonement of Christ.

John 8:32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Dr. Bob]

Well, Craig, using the NASB1995 instead of the AV1611 is sure a sin to SOME around here!!