Six die at Christian School in Nashville

[MrW]

Sure we are. We have been in the Tribulation since our King ascended into heaven. The unholy trinity of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet have been seeking to devour the children of God ever since Christ defeated them on the cross. The Revelation of Christ Jesus reveals the spiritual battle that has been raging since the Garden of Eden. It is a fascinating revelation that gives us great encouragement to persevere in this time of tribulation.
Now, has the last and final winepress of God's wrath come yet? No, but it could come at anytime. When it comes, one will be left to enter the kingdom and the other will be taken to eternal destruction.

No we are NOT. If you’re here when it actually hits, you will see the difference.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

No we are NOT. If you’re here when it actually hits, you will see the difference.

I totally agree, but rather than wreck this thread, perhaps the Tribulation discussion should have its own thread.

 

[AustinC]

No we are NOT. If you’re here when it actually hits, you will see the difference.

LOL, spoken like a dispensational Zionist. That is certainly your prerogative.

 

[MrW]

LOL, spoken like a dispensational Zionist. That is certainly your prerogative.

Yes, and I will die still believing it, as I have no doubt you will die believing you're in the Great Tribulation. No offense intended.

 

[MrW]

We will be in the Great Tribulation several years before satan is bound for a thousand years.

Or rather, the world will be. The Church will be removed first.

 

[AustinC]

We will be in the Great Tribulation several years before satan is bound for a thousand years.

Or rather, the world will be. The Church will be removed first.

Satan was already bound. The 1000 years is not literal. To take all numbers literally is to ignore John's apocalyptic language.
Nowhere, in the entire letter, can you find a removal of the church. Nowhere.

 

[AustinC]

Yes, and I will die still believing it, as I have no doubt you will die believing you're in the Great Tribulation. No offense intended.

I take no offense. My life has been far from perfect and I see my brothers and sisters around the world being slaughtered for the faith. To tell them their tribulation is not great is to mock their suffering for the cross. I will not do that.
The beast and the false prophet as well as the harlot are all around you and you choose to ignore them. I will not do that.
Israel is an openly godless nation, following the beast as they mistreat any Christian who will not bow to them (see our Palestinian Christian brothers if you doubt). MrW, your eschatology causes you to miss what John is saying.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, I have to admit I really can’t keep up. I just read a story that the shooter is a trans woman that identifies as a man.

I thought I finally had it figured out. I thought a trans woman was a man identifying as a woman and versa vice.

Better to just say a mentally ill person committed an act of pure evil.

peace to you

Watch the pronouns

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sounds like those Christians agree with common sense. I agree 100% with that statement.

When I wakeup an OD patient with narcan, and he starts trying to fight everything in sight I absolutely love seeing that Sheriff's Deputy there with a 9mm with more firepower than the OD-ed patient.

Or, as you put it earlier in the thread, "A 9mm turns away wrath".

A 40 cal’s even better… less rounds

 

[timtofly]

After that statement you go off and assert what I didn't assert and then attempt to create a conundrum, so, no I don't see what you're saying.

Why is that when a person points out a poster is wrong, that poster's response is "you assert"?


Your original post asserts an error in your point. God does not force people to sin. That is your point that is coming across as an erroneous assertion. Then when I point out that is wrong, you claim I assert my point.


Your claim in the most basic of understanding is that God is doing the evil to result in the good.

That is not what Scripture teaches. God works so that all things turn out for the good, for believers. The verse does not even claim it is for the benefit of the lost. It is talking about those who love God, not those who have rejected God.

Satan works to discredit God, but God can turn the tables on Satan to bring out good in the end. That is not the same as you stating it is God Himself doing the evil, so good can eventually happen.

We know that where sin abounds, grace abounds much more. But you cannot say that God orchestrates sin, just so grace can abound.

Your point did come across that since God allowed it, it was God sending the demonic forces into play. That was your assertion.

Your words: "Whether or not you like it, these persons died because God chose to have them die by this demonic means."

That is your assertion that you know the mind of God in this instance.

I was just pointing out that when you state God Chose, you asserted that you know what God thinks, and in that assertion, God used a human by demonic means to do a sinful and evil act. And then you excused that by making it sound better, that God had already planned for those people to die at that moment anyway, so it was OK for God to force another human to do the evil, because God literally orchestrated the whole thing, because that is your erroneous interpretation of God's Sovereignty. You assert how God's Sovereignty plays out.

Yes, my assertion is that you are wrong.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

You went straight to the point that God chooses death. That is not Scripture. God does not even instigate the first step. That troubled soul did not get up one morning by God's sovereign will, get a gun and go shoot people. It was a process started by that person over a life time. A process that this soul refused to change their way, that eventually led to death as the end result.

 

[AustinC]

Why is that when a person points out a poster is wrong, that poster's response is "you assert"?


Your original post asserts an error in your point. God does not force people to sin. That is your point that is coming across as an erroneous assertion. Then when I point out that is wrong, you claim I assert my point.


Your claim in the most basic of understanding is that God is doing the evil to result in the good.

That is not what Scripture teaches. God works so that all things turn out for the good, for believers. The verse does not even claim it is for the benefit of the lost. It is talking about those who love God, not those who have rejected God.

Satan works to discredit God, but God can turn the tables on Satan to bring out good in the end. That is not the same as you stating it is God Himself doing the evil, so good can eventually happen.

We know that where sin abounds, grace abounds much more. But you cannot say that God orchestrates sin, just so grace can abound.

Your point did come across that since God allowed it, it was God sending the demonic forces into play. That was your assertion.

Your words: "Whether or not you like it, these persons died because God chose to have them die by this demonic means."

That is your assertion that you know the mind of God in this instance.

I was just pointing out that when you state God Chose, you asserted that you know what God thinks, and in that assertion, God used a human by demonic means to do a sinful and evil act. And then you excused that by making it sound better, that God had already planned for those people to die at that moment anyway, so it was OK for God to force another human to do the evil, because God literally orchestrated the whole thing, because that is your erroneous interpretation of God's Sovereignty. You assert how God's Sovereignty plays out.

Yes, my assertion is that you are wrong.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

You went straight to the point that God chooses death. That is not Scripture. God does not even instigate the first step. That troubled soul did not get up one morning by God's sovereign will, get a gun and go shoot people. It was a process started by that person over a life time. A process that this soul refused to change their way, that eventually led to death as the end result.

Quote me saying that "God forces people to sin."
Honestly, if you read the Bible, sin doesn't need anyone to force it to sin. Sin willingly sins, because it is opposed to God. All God has to do is let it go, unrestrained. (Read Romans 1).
So, in the martyrdom of these 6 Christians, did God get caught by surprise? Was God unable to restrain sin? The answer to both questions is...no.
Therefore, we ask...for what purpose, oh God, did you bring about the deaths of your children?

Tim, was this killing by accident? Was God not aware of the killers heart and motivation? Are God's words to Cain not just as relevant today as then? ("sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you.")
The mystery is that God chose to give sin the right to commit its wicked act and God did not restrain the one who acted like Cain. We do not know why, and, frankly, knowing why wouldn't change anything. But, God tells us that there is a good purpose for this evil taking place and killing His children. Will we believe this truth, or will we try to philosophize the issue and try exonerate God, but in so doing, make God to be less than Sovereign? No! God is Sovereign and in His Sovereignty He removed the restraints of Sin to do the work that He knew Sin would do. And God did this for a purpose. A purpose we do not grasp or conceive of, yet God tells us it is a good purpose.
*Romans 8:28-30*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Will you trust God or will you make God to be less than Sovereign because your theology won't allow God to hold that position?

 

[timtofly]

Quote me saying that "God forces people to sin."
Honestly, if you read the Bible, sin doesn't need anyone to force it to sin. Sin willingly sins, because it is opposed to God. All God has to do is let it go, unrestrained. (Read Romans 1).
So, in the martyrdom of these 6 Christians, did God get caught by surprise? Was God unable to restrain sin? The answer to both questions is...no.
Therefore, we ask...for what purpose, oh God, did you bring about the deaths of your children?

Tim, was this killing by accident? Was God not aware of the killers heart and motivation? Are God's words to Cain not just as relevant today as then? ("sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you.")
The mystery is that God chose to give sin the right to commit its wicked act and God did not restrain the one who acted like Cain. We do not know why, and, frankly, knowing why wouldn't change anything. But, God tells us that there is a good purpose for this evil taking place and killing His children. Will we believe this truth, or will we try to philosophize the issue and try exonerate God, but in so doing, make God to be less than Sovereign? No! God is Sovereign and in His Sovereignty He removed the restraints of Sin to do the work that He knew Sin would do. And God did this for a purpose. A purpose we do not grasp or conceive of, yet God tells us it is a good purpose.
*Romans 8:28-30*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Will you trust God or will you make God to be less than Sovereign because your theology won't allow God to hold that position?

Are you now back tracking on your original quote?

Your quote: "Whether or not you like it, these persons died because God chose to have them die by this demonic means."

That is not the same as God stepping in and working to mitigate the trouble for those who are the called according to His purpose for good.

Your quote does not embody Romans 8:28-30.

You obviously expected people not to like your quote.

Do you not notice the order God set up in His Sovereignty?

All humanity are covered in election.

The group gets smaller at the predestined step.

Then smaller at the calling step.

Then smaller at the justification.

Those glorified are the smallest group.

Certainly a choice is made by each individual in the process to allow God to continue to work, or to completely reject God's process. God does not force us to resist, nor is the means of our resistance.

God did not start out making all of humanity glorified, then they dropped out and the foreknown/elected is the smallest group.

The point about an earthly kingdom and Israel ruling with Christ after the Second Coming is that humanity is on earth still and not glorified. Israel and those in the Millennium are still justified. They are sin free.

Yes, God chose steps in the restoration of Adam's disobedience. The verses you quote point that out.

But that is not even what you posted, that I had contention with. You did post God chose that demonic act to happen, whether Believers like it or not. Since you pointed out some would not like it, that is what I was doing. Not liking the point you made.

Then you justified "God's choice" (alledged by you) with the wrong interpretation of Scripture.

Are you now saying you don't even like your own quote? Why assert it if you don't like it? God's Sovereignty seems to be so humanity would like God, not so they can be at enmity with God.

Besides it is sin that makes us enemies of God, not His Sovereignty. Why turn Sovereignty into something it is not? God's Sovereignty is the justice and punishment of sin. Punishment is not evil. Punishment is for our good. You cannot even know the mind of God to say He was even punishing those that day in Nashville. That is the mindset of Job's friends. Job acknowledged God's Sovereignty, but Job did not state God's specific intentions. At least not until the debating started.

I am not saying that in some cases God cannot step in and take a person's life.

"And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."

"And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."

"Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband."

 

[canadyjd]

Quote me saying that "God forces people to sin."…..

Here is what you said…

….
I know that people struggle to reconcile a loving God with that same God giving the order to allow evil to act and ultimately kill even His own children……

Here you say God is “giving the order”…. to… “kill His own children”.

If God “ordered” the death of His children, didn’t He “order” that person to kill them?

God doesn’t need a mentally ill trans woman to end a child’s life. He can take any of us when ever He choses.

Peace to you

 

[AustinC]

Here is what you said…

Here you say God is “giving the order”…. to… “kill His own children”.

If God “ordered” the death of His children, didn’t He “order” that person to kill them?

God doesn’t need a mentally ill trans woman to end a child’s life. He can take any of us when ever He choses.

Peace to you

I answered you with the rest of the post where you only quote my first comment. I cannot make you understand, if you don't understand.

Quote me saying that "God forces people to sin."
Honestly, if you read the Bible, sin doesn't need anyone to force it to sin. Sin willingly sins, because it is opposed to God. All God has to do is let it go, unrestrained. (Read Romans 1).
So, in the martyrdom of these 6 Christians, did God get caught by surprise? Was God unable to restrain sin? The answer to both questions is...no.
Therefore, we ask...for what purpose, oh God, did you bring about the deaths of your children?

Tim, was this killing by accident? Was God not aware of the killers heart and motivation? Are God's words to Cain not just as relevant today as then? ("sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you.")
The mystery is that God chose to give sin the right to commit its wicked act and God did not restrain the one who acted like Cain. We do not know why, and, frankly, knowing why wouldn't change anything. But, God tells us that there is a good purpose for this evil taking place and killing His children. Will we believe this truth, or will we try to philosophize the issue and try exonerate God, but in so doing, make God to be less than Sovereign? No! God is Sovereign and in His Sovereignty He removed the restraints of Sin to do the work that He knew Sin would do. And God did this for a purpose. A purpose we do not grasp or conceive of, yet God tells us it is a good purpose.
*Romans 8:28-30*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Will you trust God or will you make God to be less than Sovereign because your theology won't allow God to hold that position?

 

[AustinC]

Are you now back tracking on your original quote?

Your quote: "Whether or not you like it, these persons died because God chose to have them die by this demonic means."

That is not the same as God stepping in and working to mitigate the trouble for those who are the called according to His purpose for good.

Your quote does not embody Romans 8:28-30.

You obviously expected people not to like your quote.

Do you not notice the order God set up in His Sovereignty?

All humanity are covered in election.

The group gets smaller at the predestined step.

Then smaller at the calling step.

Then smaller at the justification.

Those glorified are the smallest group.

Certainly a choice is made by each individual in the process to allow God to continue to work, or to completely reject God's process. God does not force us to resist, nor is the means of our resistance.

God did not start out making all of humanity glorified, then they dropped out and the foreknown/elected is the smallest group.

The point about an earthly kingdom and Israel ruling with Christ after the Second Coming is that humanity is on earth still and not glorified. Israel and those in the Millennium are still justified. They are sin free.

Yes, God chose steps in the restoration of Adam's disobedience. The verses you quote point that out.

But that is not even what you posted, that I had contention with. You did post God chose that demonic act to happen, whether Believers like it or not. Since you pointed out some would not like it, that is what I was doing. Not liking the point you made.

Then you justified "God's choice" (alledged by you) with the wrong interpretation of Scripture.

Are you now saying you don't even like your own quote? Why assert it if you don't like it? God's Sovereignty seems to be so humanity would like God, not so they can be at enmity with God.

Besides it is sin that makes us enemies of God, not His Sovereignty. Why turn Sovereignty into something it is not? God's Sovereignty is the justice and punishment of sin. Punishment is not evil. Punishment is for our good. You cannot even know the mind of God to say He was even punishing those that day in Nashville. That is the mindset of Job's friends. Job acknowledged God's Sovereignty, but Job did not state God's specific intentions. At least not until the debating started.

I am not saying that in some cases God cannot step in and take a person's life.

"And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."

"And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."

"Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband."

I am not backtracking on anything. I have consistently stated that God's sovereign choices are a mystery to us and God is under no obligation to explain them to us. We live with that tension and still acknowledge that God is good and that he works all things for good to those that love Him.
God has a good purpose in the deaths of these 6 saints.

 

[canadyjd]

I answered you with the rest of the post where you only quote my first comment. I cannot make you understand, if you don't understand.

It does not change YOUR words that God “ordered” those children to be killed.

You asked for a quote from you that God had forced someone to sin. I gave you your own words.

If you cannot understand how that sounds lije God forcing someone to sin, I can’t help you.

peace to you

 

[timtofly]

I am not backtracking on anything. I have consistently stated that God's sovereign choices are a mystery to us and God is under no obligation to explain them to us. We live with that tension and still acknowledge that God is good and that he works all things for good to those that love Him.
God has a good purpose in the deaths of these 6 saints.

But God working it all out for the good of those called according to His purpose is not what is the point.

This is the point:

Whether or not you like it, these persons died because God chose to have them die by this demonic means.

You are stating God's state of mind. You do not know what God was thinking about that situation. It is a mystery to you, so why assert you know exactly what happened?

And since what this person did was wrong and considered sin, you are implying that God chose, and this person did not sin, but was under the direct orders of God, because that is your unraveling of this mystery of God's Sovereignty.

Now you claim God did not force this person to sin, and then contradict yourself that God did exactly that in choosing what this person did that day. So either the act was not sin, but God's sovereign will, and God forced this person to carry out this will; Or this was an act of sin and God did not will it to happen. It was the end result of this person constantly resisting God at work in their life.

 

[AustinC]

But God working it all out for the good of those called according to His purpose is not what is the point.

This is the point:


You are stating God's state of mind. You do not know what God was thinking about that situation. It is a mystery to you, so why assert you know exactly what happened?

And since what this person did was wrong and considered sin, you are implying that God chose, and this person did not sin, but was under the direct orders of God, because that is your unraveling of this mystery of God's Sovereignty.

Now you claim God did not force this person to sin, and then contradict yourself that God did exactly that in choosing what this person did that day. So either the act was not sin, but God's sovereign will, and God forced this person to carry out this will; Or this was an act of sin and God did not will it to happen. It was the end result of this person constantly resisting God at work in their life.

Could God have stopped the whole event from happening?

Yes

God chose to have this evil play out, just as it did.

Why are you struggling with God's revealed will?

Do you feel you are responsible for explaining why God chose that these events would happen?

Jesus answered this conundrum for you.

*Luke 13:1-5*
There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

God uses evil for His glory.

*Habakkuk 1:6-11*
For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own. They are dreaded and fearsome; their justice and dignity go forth from themselves. Their horses are swifter than leopards, more fierce than the evening wolves; their horsemen press proudly on. Their horsemen come from afar; they fly like an eagle swift to devour. They all come for violence, all their faces forward. They gather captives like sand. At kings they scoff, and at rulers they laugh. They laugh at every fortress, for they pile up earth and take it. Then they sweep by like the wind and go on, guilty men, whose own might is their god!”

Read these verses and know that God does whatsoever He wills, and His will is always perfect and based upon His holiness.

This is God, like it or not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sounds like those Christians agree with common sense. I agree 100% with that statement.

When I wakeup an OD patient with narcan, and he starts trying to fight everything in sight I absolutely love seeing that Sheriff's Deputy there with a 9mm with more firepower than the OD-ed patient.

Or, as you put it earlier in the thread, "A 9mm turns away wrath".

Question, who pays for the Narcan you use to revive drug addicts?

 

[MrW]

I believe, totally convinced, the thousand years is literal. It is the sabbath day for the earth, and as man has misruled for six days, six thousand years, Christ will rule from Jerusalem on the Throne of David one day, one thousand years, the sabbath rest in Hebrews.