Slavery and the Bible

[Clint Kritzer]

Mr. Payne -
Because a slave who was a believer could be in the terrible position of being owned by a wayward or non-believer. Even in the totally subserviant role as a slave, the Christian should always be exemplary. Though often unendurable, physical pain and subjection to tortuous treatment is a fact of life in the physical world, we are instructed to not fear man, but God. Luke 12: 4-5

- Clint

 

[lidia]

>>>>>>As far as morality is concerned, to LC, to quote Woodrow Kroll of Back to the Bible,
"Everything we do and say has to be judged against some standard. The Bible is the standard given to us by God." Morality must be referenced to something outside of
human beings in order for it to be more than opinion and feeling.<<<<<

In regard to slavery, killing, etc., it seems that the bible is not consistent on these issues. How can it be used as the absolute standard when it is not consistent?

 

[MarciontheModerateBaptist]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Mr. Payne -
Because a slave who was a believer could be in the terrible position of being owned by a wayward or non-believer. Even in the totally subserviant role as a slave, the Christian should always be exemplary. Though often unendurable, physical pain and subjection to tortuous treatment is a fact of life in the physical world, we are instructed to not fear man, but God. Luke 12: 4-5<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, Clint. That is one of the arguments that slaveholders used. I cannot believe that a Christian would be in favor of a slave enduring a beating and call that "exemplary." This is what happens when every word of the Bible is taken as normative for today

Daniel Payne

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Sir -

I am not in favor of slavery at all. Please do not think that I am. We are ALL put in unenviable positions from time to time.

- Clint

 

[MarciontheModerateBaptist]

I understand that, but your post was in the context of slavery. BTW, you do not have to call me "sir."

Daniel

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Yes, Daniel, in the context of Biblically historical slavery. Do not tbe deceived into thinking that this practice does not exist in the world today, nor that it could rear its head ANYWHERE in the world at a future point. - Clint

 

[JohnClay]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
I will attempt to stay on subject.

Good morning from the US, sir.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Clint. You can just call me excreationist.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>....You are quite correct in your assertion that the New Testament does not directly condemn slavery.

I am not one to go through contortions to defend my faith. The point you raise is fair and you have certainly met us on our "turf" which I can respect. However, the Christian philosophy, though based in scripture, is more than following a set of rules set forth in a Book. There is an underlying theme and a prevailing attitude in the New Testament of how we are to treat our fellow man.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I wish to present to you scripture that, though it does not mention slaves in specific, does set forth our "code of conduct," if you will, on our treatment of our fellow man.
...Christ used a Samaritan because they were considered, by the Jews to be lower even than the Gentiles. I am sure that you are also familiar with the "Golden Rule" found in Matthew 7:12 which states the most basic guide for following a Christian life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In that verse Jesus claims that the Golden Rule "sums up the Law and the Prophets." But in Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30 & Luke 10:27, Jesus says that obeying the commandments also involves loving "the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength." (Matthew 22:37 doesn't include "strength" though)
This way the commandments like "Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." make sense. (Exodus 34:14)

That commandment can't be justified by the Golden Rule I think. Other examples include:

Exodus 19:12 - "Put limits for the people around the mountain [Sinai] and tell them, `Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death."

Leviticus 24:16 - "anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death."

Numbers 1:51 - "Whenever the tabernacle is to move, the Levites are to take it down, and whenever the tabernacle is to be set up, the Levites shall do it. Anyone else who goes near it shall be put to death."
...etc.

But maybe those things only apply to Jews. (Except the part about only worshipping God - and that involves more than the Golden Rule)

Anyway, it means not just obeying the Golden Rule (which can lead to hippie-style free-love) but only being guided by God's laws I think. Since you're supposed to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength then you'd try and keep his commandments even though your salvation isn't dependent on it. But you could just keep the commandments out of gratitude.

Anyway, though in the OT God commanded his people to take slaves, in the NT, he just permitted them to have slaves. Maybe it is like divorce - where it is permitted, but perhaps should be avoided if possible. But today we have gone against the Christian advice on divorce and gone back to the laws given to Moses. see Matthew 5:31-32, Matthew 19:3-12 and Mark 10:2-12.

I don't think Jesus's only command was the Golden Rule. e.g. when he went into the temple, overturned the tables, scattered the money and using a whip made of cords he drove the people and animals out. (see Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17 & John 2:14-16)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, if you read the letters of Paul and the other New Testament books, there is a prevailing theme of making the church acceptable to the prevailing culture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, Paul says that you don't have to bother being circumcized to be a Christian, etc, even though in the OT it was necessary in order to be one of God's people. But "...no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16) And the OT involved words directly from God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is late in the morning but if you like I will find specifics for you at our next meeting. Slavery, at the time of the writing of the New Testament, was a reality in those culture, thus, the proper treatment of slaves was stressed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, but Christians could have set their slaves free and hire them as servants.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...Paul does not demand release, but he appeals to his fellow believer's Christian attitude to guide him in his treatment of this man who is considered "property."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, in my first post I talked about the book of Philemon. Paul could have at least suggested the slave be forgiven and given his freedom (rather than demanding this).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would also point to Galatians 3:28 which points to the Christian belief that we are all on an equal footing through Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I talked about this verse in my first post, and also my second post on page 2.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

By the way, excreationist, you and others have cited Galatians 3:28. I am fortunate enough to be using the NIV study Bible as well and if you note their footnotes you will see that they say, "Unity in Christ transcends ethnic, social and sexual distinctions", in relation to our adoption by God (verses 26,27). This equality is higher than this earthly plane.

I realized this morning that I had neglected clarification on that point. - Clint

 

[JohnClay]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarciontheModerateBaptist:
OK, Clint. That is one of the arguments that slaveholders used. I cannot believe that a Christian would be in favor of a slave enduring a beating and call that "exemplary." This is what happens when every word of the Bible is taken as normative for today [/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Note that in Encarta it says "Black resistance was the most important of these factors [that contributed to the rise of abolitionist movements]. Since the 1500s Africans and persons of African descent had attempted to free themselves from slavery by force."

So if the slaves followed Paul's advice in my opening post, there would have been no black resistance at all. There may have been an abolitionist movement but since the slaves wouldn't have been causing trouble the slave-holders would just rather keep them enslaved instead.

Also, as I said to Late_Cretaceous on the end of page 1, America wouldn't have fought for its independence if it took very plain and direct Bible passages seriously.

 

[JohnClay]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
By the way, excreationist, you and others have cited Galatians 3:28. I am fortunate enough to be using the NIV study Bible as well and if you note their footnotes you will see that they say, "Unity in Christ transcends ethnic, social and sexual distinctions", in relation to our adoption by God (verses 26,27). This equality is higher than this earthly plane.

I realized this morning that I had neglected clarification on that point. - Clint<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So then I guess this means that the equality is just some kind of spiritual equality rather than necessarily social-political equality.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Good evening -

As you see, we posted at the same time a moment ago. I hope all is well on your side of the planet.

First of all, I do not think that I implied that the Golden Rule was the only basis for our conduct but merely threw it out as an example. As for the clearing of the temple, indeed, others had done to God before Christ ejected them. The money changers and those who sold animals for sacrifice had actually moved within the temple doors, using the space for profit rather than worship.

But then, we're off the subject again, aren't we?

Also, I would rather focus on the New Testament verses than the Old as the Baptist faith is a New Testament faith. When I refer to Paul's letters asking the churches to be acceptable to the culture, I am not referring to circumcision. Instead, I would refer you to verses such as Titus 2:15 which states after much instruction (including instructions to slaves), "Do not let anyone despise you." No, that is not the whole verse. I am a slow typist.

As for Philemon, we are not told that Paul had any authority over Philemon at all but rather approached him as an equal. Philemon was within his rights to kill Onesimus. Paul implored Philemon to treat the slave "as a brother" backing up the Galation 3:28 verse.

I had meant to do a little research into your country's history as to slavery but have not done so. For this nation, if you and I and the internet had been in existence 150 years ago, this would have been a whole different issue. At that time, the culture supported the use of slaves. God saw fit that this practice came to an end in this nation.

I will respond further to your comments later. I have a few things to do but as I stated before, your point is fair. As long as the conversation remains polite, I will continue our discourse. Besides, you responded well to my very first posting on this topic. I won't debate anyone who doesn't have a sense of humor.

- Clint

 

[tyndale1946]

I belong to Little Bethany Primitive Baptist Church in San Diego and we share our church with Mt. Calvary which is a black congregation. I wanted to know from some of the historians on this site... Brother Clint and Robert... I don't like to name names
What was the church going practice among those who owned slaves during the Civil War?
How did those church going bible believing christian brothers and sisters condone the owning of another human being? Did they allow the slaves to join them in worship or did the slaves have their own worship service? I had the priviledge to hear Amazing Grace sung the way the slaves sung it during the Civil War and it moved me to tears. If I ever have a chance to record it I will send Brother Robert a copy if he doesn't already have one... Brother Glen

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Hello Brother Glen -

If excreationist does not object to the diversion...

Most of the Baptist churches built here in my part of the country had a loft or upper balcony incorporated into the architecture. This space was where the black members of the congregation would sit. My own church's records show also that as early as 183(5?) we had ordained two black deacons to minister to the black members of the congregation. These men served in a rotation with the white deacons for prayers, offering collection, etc.
After the emancipation, these bretheren broke off into their own church buildings. I have wanted to research these histories but as of yet, I am still wading through the mass of old documents at my own church and for the most part remain a glorified cleric.

May God bless you, Glen

- Clint

 

[Clint Kritzer]

As for the justification of the slave owning, I have little to go on except the records of the original meeting in Baltimore of southern churches belonging to the Tri-ennial Convention that gathered together to argue the issue with their northern bretheren who had refused missionary support to the Cherokee people by a slave owner.

I expect that meeting went much like this thread.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[rlvaughn]

Brother Glen, I would love to have that recording!

Before the War Between the States, it was common in the South among Baptists that the slaves attended church with their masters and were members of (if they professed conversion) the same churches as their masters. Church segregation began after the war, and itself was not altogether a racial issue. The blacks, having a newfound freedom, wanted to exercise it. This is overly simplistic and there is a lot more to all of this, but maybe this answers the basic question and does take too much away from the discussion.

 

[tyndale1946]

I sorry I went off the topic of Slavery and the Bible but according to scriptures were the Pyramids built by slave labor? I heard some say that it couldn't have been slave labor as it was an organized project. What does the record show?... Brother Glen

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Brother Glen - I am not familiar with that history.

excreationist - I will await your reply tomorrow, but in that post, please tell me how you made the image with the blinking eyes in your profile! That is EXCELLENT!

I will print and reread this thread so that I can be more thorough. As to the Galatians 3 reference, yes, we are equal in the Kingdom of Heaven, but we are not here on earth. There is much definition of roles in the New Testament letters, some of which you have noted. Paul was a bright, well-traveled man who was familiar with the customs and cultures of the lands in which he planted churches. As I stated, it is important that we, as Christians are exemplary to our prospective cultures. Have a good day, and I will have a good evening. - Clint

 

[rlvaughn]

Bro. Glen, there are a number of theories of how the pyramids were built, none about which I would be willing to say I am sure.

 

[JohnClay]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, I would rather focus on the New Testament verses than the Old as the Baptist faith is a New Testament faith.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It sounds like you're brushing over the problem....
Anyway, people in the OT are mentioned in the NT (like in Hebrews 11 and Jude) - and the most mentioned of all is Moses. In fact, Moses (and Elijah) visited Jesus and appeared before the disciples.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When I refer to Paul's letters asking the churches to be acceptable to the culture, I am not referring to circumcision. Instead, I would refer you to verses such as Titus 2:15 which states after much instruction (including instructions to slaves), "Do not let anyone despise you." No, that is not the whole verse. I am a slow typist.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you are countering my collection of slavery passages from the OT and NT with just a couple of verse fragments?
Maybe the final part of Titus 2:15 is directed to Titus himself. The first part of that verse "These, then, are things you should teach" refers to Titus 2.
I had already quoted the relevant part of Titus 2 here, which are verses 9 and 10 -
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive."
So here it is speaking out against the resistance and disobedience of slaves.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for Philemon, we are not told that Paul had any authority over Philemon at all but rather approached him as an equal. Philemon was within his rights to kill Onesimus. Paul implored Philemon to treat the slave "as a brother" backing up the Galation 3:28 verse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It seems that Philemon 1:16 is ambiguous... though in most translations it appears that Paul is saying that Onesimus could become Philemon's brother rather than a slave. Here are some other translations:
NLT - "He is no longer just a slave; he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a slave and as a brother in the Lord."
WE - "Now he is not like a slave who must work for you. He is better than a slave. He is a Christian brother and you will love him. I love him very much. But you will love him even more because he belongs to you and he is a Christian."
I think Paul is saying that the slave has now become a fellow Christian brother (see verse 10).
In Galations 3:29 it says how all Christians will receive their promised inheritance. I guess this harmonizes Paul's words about the treatment of women with Jesus's words. And note that he is talking about them being one - in Christ - if you're not a Christian then you aren't part of it. Whoever isn't for Christ is against him.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I had meant to do a little research into your country's history as to slavery but have not done so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well basically what happened was that the cane-farmers would get ships to go to the nearby islands and pick up the natives and promise them the world then take them to the farms to work all day in the sun. And Aborigines only got to vote in elections in 1967.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...God saw fit that this practice came to an end in this nation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
BTW, the Bible tells an interesting story about why the Canaanites were taken as slaves for the Israelites (rather than being slaughtered, like the others) - after the flood, Noah got drunk and lay naked. Then Ham saw that and told his brothers. The brothers covered Noah's nakedness, and Noah cursed Ham's descendents and said that they will be the lowest of slaves. He blessed Shem and Japheth and their descendents... and it was so.
It looks like slavery ended mainly because of black resistance and also because of groups who highly emphasized the Golden Rule (and not the rest) - like the Quakers.
It seems that Christians like to give God the credit for any good things that happen and blame all the bad things on Satan (even original sin is Satan's fault). But that's getting a bit off topic...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...As long as the conversation remains polite, I will continue our discourse. Besides, you responded well to my very first posting on this topic. I won't debate anyone who doesn't have a sense of humor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I was getting a bit impolite at the end but hopefully in future I will be able to resist the temptation...

 

[JohnClay]

Brother Glen - you'd just have to read the early parts of Exodus. Maybe it talks about the slaves building something but it probably doesn't talk about pyramids.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
...please tell me how you made the image with the blinking eyes in your profile! That is EXCELLENT!...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cool... thanks man. Well I did that a couple of years ago and my video capture card would only capture a couple seconds of video at a time. I pointed the camera at my face and watched myself on the screen. I pointed a desklight at my face while my room was in total darkness. Then I recorded a couple of seconds while my head didn't move. Then used some kind of painting program like Corel PhotoPaint or Paintshop Pro and made it have 8-bit colour. Then the tricky part was starting with the first frame then making the parts of the rest of the frames that don't change bright pink. So on the other frames, there are just the eyes amongst some pink. Then I deleted the frames where nothing really happened and saved it as a transparent gif, where pink was the transparent colour. Then I opened it up in Microsoft Gif Animator (freeware) and made the eyes work properly. I adjusted the timing for each frame - there isn't a constant framerate. The eyes open frame lasts for a long time and the rest are very quick - and it is only an 8 kb file.