Hello excreationist -
I will apologize in advance that this post will be far briefer than I was hoping. I've had my hands a bit full (yeah, yeah, I'd like some cheese with my whine) but I was glad to see that you had come back this morning. I am also doing this off-line as I have need of my phone line at the moment so there will be no links.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It sounds like you're brushing over the problem....
Anyway, people in the OT are mentioned in the NT (like in Hebrews 11 and Jude) - and the most mentioned of all is Moses. In fact, Moses (and Elijah) visited Jesus and appeared before the disciples. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am sorry if it seems my intent is to avoid your questions. My reasoning was that I am far more familiar with the covenant of the New Testament and am therefore far more qualified to debate you. As I stated to you in my second post, I am well aware thast the scriptures never outright condemn slavery so you have no need to convince me of that.
Actually, there is one mention of Old Testament characters that you may find quite interesting. If you look in Galatians 4:21-31, you will find a symbolic parallel written about Sarah and the slave girl, Hagar. Which describes the difference in the two Covenants made to man in the Bible. Also, use your NIV and look at the text notes on that passage on verses 30 &31. This demonstrates my desire to stay to the New Testament: "The believer is not enslaved to the Law but is a child of promise and lives by faith." I plan on further investigating this passage. If you refer to the story of Hagar, you will see that God Himself took pity on the slave woman and her child, Ishmael (Genesis 21:17 - 19)
The appearance of Elijah and Moses with Christ is commonly referred to as the Transfiguration.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So you are countering my collection of slavery passages from the OT and NT with just a couple of verse fragments?
Maybe the final part of Titus 2:15 is directed to Titus himself. The first part of that verse "These, then, are things you should teach" refers to Titus 2.
I had already quoted the relevant part of Titus 2 here, which are verses 9 and 10 -
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive."
So here it is speaking out against the resistance and disobedience of slaves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am leaving too much for granted in some of my posts. Teaching is not my strong suit. I refer to Titus 2 because this entire passage is instructions for making the church acceptable to the island of Crete, kind of a olden age Las Vegas. If the new religion of Christianity had broken onto the scene in that culture, the women would have appeared "loose"(Titus 2:3-5), the men would have been overzealous (v. 6-8) and the slaves would have been considered insubordinate and rebellious.
If we proceed into chapter 3, you will see further instructions on making the church "look good" to the prevailing culture. Titus had a monumental task working in this seaport island.
You had mentioned circumcision at one point in our discourse. Titus was indeed considered to be uncircumcised as he was a gentile. I am looking for an account I remember and cannot locate on Paul having a follower of his circumcised when he took him to Jerusalem. I will have the account or retract the statement by then. If I can find it, it reasserts my contention that much of Paul's ministry is about making the church look "normal" to the prevailing culture.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It seems that Philemon 1:16 is ambiguous... though in most translations it appears that Paul is saying that Onesimus could become Philemon's brother rather than a slave. Here are some other translations:
NLT - "He is no longer just a slave; he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a slave and as a brother in the Lord."
WE - "Now he is not like a slave who must work for you. He is better than a slave. He is a Christian brother and you will love him. I love him very much. But you will love him even more because he belongs to you and he is a Christian."
I think Paul is saying that the slave has now become a fellow Christian brother (see verse 10).
In Galations 3:29 it says how all Christians will receive their promised inheritance. I guess this harmonizes Paul's words about the treatment of women with Jesus's words. And note that he is talking about them being one - in Christ - if you're not a Christian then you aren't part of it. Whoever isn't for Christ is against him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You do a lot of work for me! Speaking of which, I noticed that you had on the web site in your first link, first entry, some possible support for the distaste of slavery by Christ. Again, thank you for your attempt at an unbiased approach.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Clint: I had meant to do a little research into your country's history as to slavery but have not done so.
Excreationist: Well basically what happened was that the cane-farmers would get ships to go to the nearby islands and pick up the natives and promise them the world then take them to the farms to work all day in the sun. And Aborigines only got to vote in elections in 1967. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am ashamed to admit that about all I know about Australia is that It's the continent down there on the other side of the globe, you got some wierd looking animals, Paul Hogan, Men at Work from the 80's, and Steve Irwin gets on my nerves so bad that I find myself secretly wishing that the snake will get him (my step-daughter on the other hand, thinks he rules!). Oh yeah, I don't like vegamite but you may not like chitterlings.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Clint: ...God saw fit that this practice came to an end in this nation.
Excreationist: BTW, the Bible tells an interesting story about why the Canaanites were taken as slaves for the Israelites (rather than being slaughtered, like the others) - after the flood, Noah got drunk and lay naked. Then Ham saw that and told his brothers. The brothers covered Noah's nakedness, and Noah cursed Ham's descendents and said that they will be the lowest of slaves. He blessed Shem and Japheth and their descendents... and it was so.
It looks like slavery ended mainly because of black resistance and also because of groups who highly emphasized the Golden Rule (and not the rest) - like the Quakers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, we concur
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It seems that Christians like to give God the credit for any good things that happen and blame all the bad things on Satan (even original sin is Satan's fault). But that's getting a bit off topic... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes a bit off topic but I need to address it. You may have very well heard some Christians say this. You will never hear THIS Christian say that. I believe that all things work to the glory of God. Indeed, this may be a hard pill for you to swallow, but slavery may have been in God's plan for mankind and it was the vehicle that got certain folks where they needed to be. I do not, nay, I CANNOT question God's will for I am a limited being trying to perceive the mind and scope of God. Original sin was NOT Satan's fault! It was Adam and Eve through their own free will that sinned.
A good example of God's will is my own life. I came back home because my father was terminally ill. He passed away at 70 in perfect health aside from asbestos cancer. He was a well liked, respected, upstanding man but he died anyway. Am I angry at God? No. A lot of good came from that. My brother and I for the first time in our lives developed a relationship. My family became aware of the massive support that this community has for us. I re-met an old friend that I have known since 6th grade, dated in college and we married. Because of my father's death, I have a step-daughter who had a lacking father figure and a beautiful, loving wife. By the way, my wife's good looks are not up to debate on this forum!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Well I was getting a bit impolite at the end but hopefully in future I will be able to resist the temptation... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No worse than anyone else on this board and much better than some!
In conclusion, thanks alot for the geek info. If I am not on next time you post, I am out buying equpment and software to keep up with you.
Good day.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
I will apologize in advance that this post will be far briefer than I was hoping. I've had my hands a bit full (yeah, yeah, I'd like some cheese with my whine) but I was glad to see that you had come back this morning. I am also doing this off-line as I have need of my phone line at the moment so there will be no links.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It sounds like you're brushing over the problem....
Anyway, people in the OT are mentioned in the NT (like in Hebrews 11 and Jude) - and the most mentioned of all is Moses. In fact, Moses (and Elijah) visited Jesus and appeared before the disciples. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am sorry if it seems my intent is to avoid your questions. My reasoning was that I am far more familiar with the covenant of the New Testament and am therefore far more qualified to debate you. As I stated to you in my second post, I am well aware thast the scriptures never outright condemn slavery so you have no need to convince me of that.
Actually, there is one mention of Old Testament characters that you may find quite interesting. If you look in Galatians 4:21-31, you will find a symbolic parallel written about Sarah and the slave girl, Hagar. Which describes the difference in the two Covenants made to man in the Bible. Also, use your NIV and look at the text notes on that passage on verses 30 &31. This demonstrates my desire to stay to the New Testament: "The believer is not enslaved to the Law but is a child of promise and lives by faith." I plan on further investigating this passage. If you refer to the story of Hagar, you will see that God Himself took pity on the slave woman and her child, Ishmael (Genesis 21:17 - 19)
The appearance of Elijah and Moses with Christ is commonly referred to as the Transfiguration.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So you are countering my collection of slavery passages from the OT and NT with just a couple of verse fragments?
Maybe the final part of Titus 2:15 is directed to Titus himself. The first part of that verse "These, then, are things you should teach" refers to Titus 2.
I had already quoted the relevant part of Titus 2 here, which are verses 9 and 10 -
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive."
So here it is speaking out against the resistance and disobedience of slaves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am leaving too much for granted in some of my posts. Teaching is not my strong suit. I refer to Titus 2 because this entire passage is instructions for making the church acceptable to the island of Crete, kind of a olden age Las Vegas. If the new religion of Christianity had broken onto the scene in that culture, the women would have appeared "loose"(Titus 2:3-5), the men would have been overzealous (v. 6-8) and the slaves would have been considered insubordinate and rebellious.
If we proceed into chapter 3, you will see further instructions on making the church "look good" to the prevailing culture. Titus had a monumental task working in this seaport island.
You had mentioned circumcision at one point in our discourse. Titus was indeed considered to be uncircumcised as he was a gentile. I am looking for an account I remember and cannot locate on Paul having a follower of his circumcised when he took him to Jerusalem. I will have the account or retract the statement by then. If I can find it, it reasserts my contention that much of Paul's ministry is about making the church look "normal" to the prevailing culture.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It seems that Philemon 1:16 is ambiguous... though in most translations it appears that Paul is saying that Onesimus could become Philemon's brother rather than a slave. Here are some other translations:
NLT - "He is no longer just a slave; he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a slave and as a brother in the Lord."
WE - "Now he is not like a slave who must work for you. He is better than a slave. He is a Christian brother and you will love him. I love him very much. But you will love him even more because he belongs to you and he is a Christian."
I think Paul is saying that the slave has now become a fellow Christian brother (see verse 10).
In Galations 3:29 it says how all Christians will receive their promised inheritance. I guess this harmonizes Paul's words about the treatment of women with Jesus's words. And note that he is talking about them being one - in Christ - if you're not a Christian then you aren't part of it. Whoever isn't for Christ is against him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You do a lot of work for me! Speaking of which, I noticed that you had on the web site in your first link, first entry, some possible support for the distaste of slavery by Christ. Again, thank you for your attempt at an unbiased approach.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Clint: I had meant to do a little research into your country's history as to slavery but have not done so.
Excreationist: Well basically what happened was that the cane-farmers would get ships to go to the nearby islands and pick up the natives and promise them the world then take them to the farms to work all day in the sun. And Aborigines only got to vote in elections in 1967. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am ashamed to admit that about all I know about Australia is that It's the continent down there on the other side of the globe, you got some wierd looking animals, Paul Hogan, Men at Work from the 80's, and Steve Irwin gets on my nerves so bad that I find myself secretly wishing that the snake will get him (my step-daughter on the other hand, thinks he rules!). Oh yeah, I don't like vegamite but you may not like chitterlings.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Clint: ...God saw fit that this practice came to an end in this nation.
Excreationist: BTW, the Bible tells an interesting story about why the Canaanites were taken as slaves for the Israelites (rather than being slaughtered, like the others) - after the flood, Noah got drunk and lay naked. Then Ham saw that and told his brothers. The brothers covered Noah's nakedness, and Noah cursed Ham's descendents and said that they will be the lowest of slaves. He blessed Shem and Japheth and their descendents... and it was so.
It looks like slavery ended mainly because of black resistance and also because of groups who highly emphasized the Golden Rule (and not the rest) - like the Quakers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Again, we concur
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It seems that Christians like to give God the credit for any good things that happen and blame all the bad things on Satan (even original sin is Satan's fault). But that's getting a bit off topic... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes a bit off topic but I need to address it. You may have very well heard some Christians say this. You will never hear THIS Christian say that. I believe that all things work to the glory of God. Indeed, this may be a hard pill for you to swallow, but slavery may have been in God's plan for mankind and it was the vehicle that got certain folks where they needed to be. I do not, nay, I CANNOT question God's will for I am a limited being trying to perceive the mind and scope of God. Original sin was NOT Satan's fault! It was Adam and Eve through their own free will that sinned.
A good example of God's will is my own life. I came back home because my father was terminally ill. He passed away at 70 in perfect health aside from asbestos cancer. He was a well liked, respected, upstanding man but he died anyway. Am I angry at God? No. A lot of good came from that. My brother and I for the first time in our lives developed a relationship. My family became aware of the massive support that this community has for us. I re-met an old friend that I have known since 6th grade, dated in college and we married. Because of my father's death, I have a step-daughter who had a lacking father figure and a beautiful, loving wife. By the way, my wife's good looks are not up to debate on this forum!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Well I was getting a bit impolite at the end but hopefully in future I will be able to resist the temptation... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No worse than anyone else on this board and much better than some!
In conclusion, thanks alot for the geek info. If I am not on next time you post, I am out buying equpment and software to keep up with you.
Good day.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
) are in fact of the same race. I can make no assumptions that you are of a different race than I. It could be argued that the motivation was nationalism rather than racism.