Smoking Cigar's

[th1bill]

Abortion ?

IMO ~ a person in the womb does not yet have a living soul. Their "life" is dependent upon the blood of the mother, (not their own), via the placenta.

Gen.9
[4] But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof...

However, the BODY of the baby in the womb, is in the process of being FORMED "by God".

So, the decision to ABORT the baby, is a decision the individual makes to disrupt what Gods hand is doing.
It matters not, what others like or dislike about the decision, because the blessings or lack thereof AND the consequences befall the individual who makes the decision, and follows through to ABORT.

The beauty of Gods WAY, is individual choices and the individuals responsibility and consequence.

The corruption of Mans WAY, is FORCING individuals to PAY for things, THEY are adamantly AGAINST.

IF an individual chooses to:
Abort, (killing a forming body) Support War, (war bonds) Participate in War, (enlist, not draft) Smoke, (whatever) Drink excessively, Kill, Murder, Rape, Steal, Lie, Cheat...
etc. so be it. IF those such acts INFRINGE on an others LIBERTY, <--- that is the purpose of LAW, to provide a viable and EFFECTIVE consequence and reparation FOR the injured party, (not the government who makes decisions regarding the dispute and not the generational offspring of the party.)

IF an individual chooses a STANCE against such things, being FORCED to condone it or participate in it, (physically or financially), <---that IMO IS corrupt.

I am sorry but God does not care for my opinion because He is not a respecter of persons, he is the Monarch and creator of this world and it our duty to do His will. And God informed Jeremiah that He knew him before He was in the womb. And Jesus taught us to never harm the most innocent among us, you will never ba any less guilty than you are in your mother's womb.

 

[Happy]

Jeremiah 1
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Psalm 139
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

What is someone's inmost being if not the soul?

God created the form (body). First man from dust of the earth. <-- THAT form did NOTHING, "UNTIL" it received LIFE from God.

God creates the form (body), (after Adam), in the WOMB of a woman. <-- during the FORMING, the form (body) has no independent LIFE of it's own.

The LIFE of the BODY is it's BLOOD. The BODY in the process of forming, relies on the mothers BLOOD, via the placenta.

Did God CHANGE His method of creating mankind? What scripture tells you such?
Because God did NOT give Adam a SOUL, until AFTER his body was "FORMed".

Gen 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground

Psalm 139
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

Yes, God "knits" a man together in the mother's womb.
The "parts" of the FORMed BODY. Flesh, you can see, and the heart, organs, nerves, tissue, bones, BLOOD, you do not see.

And does God ALSO create the SOUL? Yes.
And does God put LIFE from Him in a SOUL? Yes.
And is it the SOUL that "quickens" (brings to life) a Form (body)? Yes.

If you study Scripture you would find, God creates "vessels", and then "puts (imparts) LIFE from Him into those "vessels".

God is Life, and He NEVER destroys LIFE. It is the "vessels" that can either "DIE" or become "DESTROYED" by God.

The BODY is a vessel. It is created with BLOOD. The living soul, quickens the Body to living, The BLOOD is the LIFE that keeps that vessel alive. The "living soul" departs a DYING BODY, such a body, whose BLOOD stops maintaining it's living condition. Stop the blood flowing, the body died. The living SOUL departs, and goes to where God has prepared a PLACE for it to be......WAITING.

God forms the body.
God makes the soul.
God does not destroy life. God allows the body to die, because He requires YOUR BLOOD, for the sin of mankind. He will also depart life out of living souls, and DESTROY SOULS, of the unfaithful.

(and FYI, "spirits", ie spirit of man, is also held in a vessel, called the heart. A mans "natural spirit", is "HIS" truth, within "HIS" natural heart. Obviously limited, by the mans own "limited" knowledge. Any man, who becomes "born again", receives a "new heart", ie a circumcision of "his old natural heart", "his old natural spirit", "his old natural" truth; and with a new heart, the man receives a "new spirit", a "spiritual spirit", a "new truth", which IS, Christ Jesus, The all knowing wisdom and understanding and Seed, and TRUTH of God. Thereafter, such a man has direct access TO "THEE" all Knowing TEACHER, Christ Jesus Himself. Thereafter, such a man is "supposed" to be taught by, and listen TO, the Truth in his HEART, over and above, the ideas, thoughts, logical conclusions, and guessing of his "mind". )
But of course, ^ THAT ONLY applies to a man WHO is submitted unto God in faithfulness TO God.

Gen 2
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground

Gen 2
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

Gen 2
and man became a living soul.

Isa 57
....the souls which I have made.

Scripture never says, God "made" souls from the Dust of the earth. Scripture specifically says God forms the body. God made souls. Body forms can be seen. Souls can not be seen.
Bodies are "made from" an exiting element, (dust), that God created BEFORE mankind.
Souls are "made" by God, and "imparted" into the form, VIA, Gods breath.

Our "souls", are life from God. They are separate from our Body. They are imparted and departed, dependent upon what the blood in our body is doing (flowing or not).

When Jesus' BODY, died, His living soul departed the body and went to the inner most parts of earth.
When Jesus' BODY, died, His Spirit depart the body and went to Gods hands.
When Jesus' BODY, died, His Body was buried in a tomb.

Jesus is our TEACHER of TRUTH, and our EXAMPLE that men SAW with their eyes, and give us testimony, and SATISFIES, the Hebrews/Jews asking, wanting, to SEE God, and God promising He would walk among them.

What Scripture teaches pertaining to JESUS' BODY, is for mankind to KNOW and comprehend, the blood filled body, the living soul, and "born again" spirit are separate things on this earth, and must all be restored, (into holy things), to become completely reconciled unto God.

1 Thes 5
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus taught about "a man becoming MADE WHOLE". Which IS, a man becoming "WHOLLY" (body, soul and spirit), restored unto God.

Scripture also teaches, of souls departing dead bodies, and even at times the soul returning to the body, and life of the body resuming.

Scripture also teaches of Bodies AND Souls that (have rejected the Lord), shall be bodies and souls that are DESTROYED. God does not destroy life. He departs LIFE, back to Him. He destroys Vessels.

A body, A soul, A spirit is all things, identified to one identity of one person. Thus, your body is you, your soul is you, your spirit is you, AS is your word, your heart, your mind.... as things carnal and spiritual that is your makeup.

 

[Happy]

I am sorry but God does not care for my opinion because He is not a respecter of persons, he is the Monarch and creator of this world and it our duty to do His will. And God informed Jeremiah that He knew him before He was in the womb. And Jesus taught us to never harm the most innocent among us, you will never ba any less guilty than you are in your mother's womb.

Sorry for what? I said nothing about God being subject to OUR opinions. God desires us to SUBMIT unto Him. Learn His WISDOM, His UNDERSTANDING.

I said nothing MORE, that Gods own teaching; individuals are given CHOICES, and individually can freely decide what THEY CHOOSE. IF an individual CHOOSES to kill, murder, abort, that IS their choice. I didn't advocate those things, I said it is "THEIR" choice, and "THEIR" consequence.

 

[Happy]

Did Adam have blood in his body before God breathed into him? Of course he did. It was not the blood but the breath. But we cannot look at the original creation (descriptive) as how it is for all humans (prescriptive) because then every man would have to lose a rib to have a wife.

Was Adam's blood FLOWING? Even dead bodies have blood in them. So what? They are still dead!
Of course Adam's body had BLOOD in it. And that body was NOT alive, UNTIL God breathed LIFE from Him into Adam's body.

And No, every man would not have to lose a rib. God determines His WAY, (order) of things, NOT us.

LOL - Actually, the unborn DO breathe (inhales and exhales) before it is born. They are not breathing air but starting at 9 weeks gestation, they inflate their lungs and deflate their lungs regularly in practice for when they will do it with air and not with amniotic fluid. It is through this process that the baby receives surfactants from the amniotic fluid that will allow their lungs to inflate with air.

LOL ~ Actually it is AIR that a "born" human breaths,
LOL ~ The mothers BLOOD, via the placenta, is what is sustaining the the baby, that is may develop.
LOL ~ Actually we EXPECT movement and a growth pattern to occur in something that is in the developing state, be it a baby in the womb or a seed planted, cracking open and roots growing in the dirt.

And receiving this oxygen is life. If a person receives oxygen from a heart/lung machine, do they lose their soul?

First of all a body can not LOSE what it does not have.
Bodies, not yet BORN, do not HAVE a soul.
Once a BODY IS Born, It's soul does not depart a body, while the body is alive.
So, why would you think a soul is LOST, while a body is still alive, via naturally or with a mechanical aid?

A soul-less person certainly doesn't leap in the womb when the mother of the Savior walks into the home, does it?

Why not? Does a seed planted in the ground, NOT move BEFORE it comes above the ground and sprout leaves, that thereafter is sustained in life BY the SUN ?

The ORDER of a SEED, is that the SEED "dies", BEFORE something can LIVE, because of the SEED.
The sustaining of the "living thing", (from the seed), is the SUN for plants, and the SON for mankind.

Every SEED, "plant or mankind" is given its OWN Body, "to reproduce" its LIKE "kind" of thing. And the "reproduction" requires the seed to first die.

1Cor.15

1. [38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Cor.15

1. [36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

 

[Happy]

Hello Happy, haven't seen you for some time. You need to get yourself up tp speed on both scripture and on the facts about that Baby in the womb. No abortion is ever performed before 10 weeks and at that time the Child has ten little fingers and ten tiny toes and I seem to recall that at this point the heart is beating and often has a different Blood Type, making it impossible for the two blood groups to inter mingle. And scientists have also tested for Brain Activity, either at or just after this point and the child is thinking, already.

I have never seen or spoken to you, so don't know your reference.

I am doing quite well in Scriptural study, with my teacher, Christ Jesus.

Abortion performed, is via mans taking of an earthling in the process of being formed.

I have studied anatomy and physiology and could care less to hash out stages of a human in the wombs development timeline. If you think the baby in the womb is fully developed, and no longer dependent on the mother, what is the point of an umbilical cord? Is it just some funny little "unnecessary" attachment to the mother?

Different blood types? Brain activity? How unique that something developing INSIDE of a WOMB, is not a CLONE of the very thing it depends on TO develop!

How unique that Scientists have discovered, babies IN the Womb, are "developing", moving, have a brain, limbs, etc. LOL. Surprise, surprise, they are no longer that little wiggly sperm, when they are manifested, and revealed exiting the birth canal....that is called BORN.

Did you not study Scripture that reveals one MUST be BORN AGAIN? Does that not notify you there is a BIRTH, that MUST occur, BEFORE "an AGAIN" birth can proceed?

Did you not study Scripture that reveals a mans SOUL, must be restored, (saved unto the Lord), BEFORE that man can be eternally with the Lord?

Did you not study Scripture that reveals a mans SOUL becomes restored, AFTER the man asks for FORGIVENESS?

Do tell, HOW does a baby in the WOMB, ask for forgiveness? And "what" would be the "forgiveness" such an unborn creature would be seeking? Forgiveness for what?

 

[th1bill]

I have never seen or spoken to you, so don't know your reference.

You knew me as th1b.taylor ay CF.

I am doing quite well in Scriptural study, with my teacher, Christ Jesus.

Abortion performed, is via mans taking of an earthling in the process of being formed.

I have studied anatomy and physiology and could care less to hash out stages of a human in the wombs development timeline. If you think the baby in the womb is fully developed, and no longer dependent on the mother, what is the point of an umbilical cord? Is it just some funny little "unnecessary" attachment to the mother?

I am remiss to see you are still trying to make idiots of people by putting words into their mouths.
...Although your unborn baby does not breathe air, she gets breathing practice while in the womb. At about nine weeks into the pregnancy, the fetus begins to engage in movements that resemble breathing. The fetus gets more breathing practice when he occasionally inhales and exhales amniotic fluid near the end of the pregnancy. Breathing practice prepares the fetus to breathe quickly and effectively after birth. The mother’s body produces surfactant in the amniotic fluid in increasing amounts as the pregnancy continues. The unborn baby needs the surfactant coating on the inside of her lungs to keep the lung’s air sacs open and prevent collapse of the lungs. Thanks to How Do Babies Breathe in the Womb?

Different blood types? Brain activity? How unique that something developing INSIDE of a WOMB, is not a CLONE of the very thing it depends on TO develop!

As part of your prenatal care, you will have blood tests to find out your blood type. If your blood lacks the Rh antigen, it is called Rh-negative. If it has the antigen, it is called Rh-positive. When the mother is Rh-negative and the father is Rh-positive, the fetus can inherit the Rh factor from the father. This makes the fetus Rh-positive too. Problems can arise when the fetus’s blood has the Rh factor and the mother’s blood does not.

What May Happen If I Am Rh-Negative And Pregnant?
If you are Rh-negative, you may develop antibodies to a Rh-positive baby. If a small amount of the baby’s blood mixes with your blood, which often happens, your body may respond as if it were allergic to the baby. Your body may make antibodies to the Rh antigens in the baby’s blood. This means you have become sensitized and your antibodies can cross the placenta and attack your baby’s blood. Thanks to Rh Factor - American Pregnancy Association

How unique that Scientists have discovered, babies IN the Womb, are "developing", moving, have a brain, limbs, etc. LOL. Surprise, surprise, they are no longer that little wiggly sperm, when they are manifested, and revealed exiting the birth canal....that is called BORN.

I made the begining of my second tour in South Vietnam stationed, just north of Hue/Phu Bai but south of the DMZ, following the huge Tet Offensive in 1968 and I have seen nor hears anything more revolting and destructive than the Nuns and teen-aged girls at the Catholic School there, until man decided Abortion should be legal. The NVA murdered those women by cutting their wombs out and baby humans are burned to death with Salt Solution or if late enough, they are litterally pull and broken into pieces. And then there is Partial Birth Abortion where the Child is held with the top of it's head just innsde the mother sometime or with just the head on the outside and a tube is inserted into the brain and it's brain is sucked out. And if that were not bad enough tales, from sickened nurses, have emerged of the Child breathing and crying being put into trash cans to die because the ¿doctor? of muffed the Abortion. God will never be pleased with that sort Barbarism!

Did you not study Scripture that reveals one MUST be BORN AGAIN? Does that not notify you there is a BIRTH, that MUST occur, BEFORE "an AGAIN" birth can proceed?

Did you not study Scripture that reveals a mans SOUL, must be restored, (saved unto the Lord), BEFORE that man can be eternally with the Lord?

Did you not study Scripture that reveals a mans SOUL becomes restored, AFTER the man asks for FORGIVENESS?
I have never said those women cannot be forgiven! That is you stereotyping. And nothing can be further from the truth,

Do tell, HOW does a baby in the WOMB, ask for forgiveness? And "what" would be the "forgiveness" such an unborn creature would be seeking? Forgiveness for what?

This one is, truly, a vain attempt to use the old lawyers tactic, "If the facts do not fit your case, destroy the character of the opposition. The truth is that child is destined to become a fruitful citizen of society from the instant that sperm widdles it's way into that egg. It is either alive at that point or it will be washed away at the next Periob.

Bill Taylor
Killer Spade 806
1968-1969

 

[Darrell C]

God creates the form (body), (after Adam), in the WOMB of a woman. <-- during the FORMING, the form (body) has no independent LIFE of it's own.

If that is the case, then why is it that Life for Life is invoked in the event of a child in the womb being killed?


Exodus 21:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,


Secondly, from the eternal perspective we see that even in the womb we are known of GOd:


Psalm 139:15-16
King James Version (KJV)

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.



Finally, for the record, I simply think it is a bad idea for infants in the womb to be smoking cigars.




God bless.

 

[Alcott]

We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

Winston Churchill
Read more at: Winston Churchill Quotes

 

[Happy]

You knew me as th1b.taylor ay CF.

No clue what CF is or did I ever converse or know of anyone named 1b.taylor

I am remiss to see you are still trying to make idiots of people by putting words into their mouths.

Quote me on your assessment.

...Although your unborn baby does not breathe air, she gets breathing practice while in the womb.

So? The issue was "unborn", not an individual. Not an individual having a soul.

At about nine weeks into the pregnancy, the fetus begins to engage in movements that resemble breathing. The fetus gets more breathing practice when he occasionally inhales and exhales amniotic fluid near the end of the pregnancy. Breathing practice prepares the fetus to breathe quickly and effectively after birth. The mother’s body produces surfactant in the amniotic fluid in increasing amounts as the pregnancy continues. The unborn baby needs the surfactant coating on the inside of her lungs to keep the lung’s air sacs open and prevent collapse of the lungs. Thanks to How Do Babies Breathe in the Womb?

http://www.livestrong.com/article/27084-babies-breathe-womb/

What does that have to do with the soul?

As part of your prenatal care, you will have blood tests to find out your blood type. If your blood lacks the Rh antigen, it is called Rh-negative. If it has the antigen, it is called Rh-positive. When the mother is Rh-negative and the father is Rh-positive, the fetus can inherit the Rh factor from the father. This makes the fetus Rh-positive too. Problems can arise when the fetus’s blood has the Rh factor and the mother’s blood does not.

What May Happen If I Am Rh-Negative And Pregnant?
If you are Rh-negative, you may develop antibodies to a Rh-positive baby. If a small amount of the baby’s blood mixes with your blood, which often happens, your body may respond as if it were allergic to the baby. Your body may make antibodies to the Rh antigens in the baby’s blood. This means you have become sensitized and your antibodies can cross the placenta and attack your baby’s blood. Thanks to Rh Factor - American Pregnancy Association

I made the begining of my second tour in South Vietnam stationed, just north of Hue/Phu Bai but south of the DMZ, following the huge Tet Offensive in 1968 and I have seen nor hears anything more revolting and destructive than the Nuns and teen-aged girls at the Catholic School there, until man decided Abortion should be legal. The NVA murdered those women by cutting their wombs out and baby humans are burned to death with Salt Solution or if late enough, they are litterally pull and broken into pieces. And then there is Partial Birth Abortion where the Child is held with the top of it's head just innsde the mother sometime or with just the head on the outside and a tube is inserted into the brain and it's brain is sucked out. And if that were not bad enough tales, from sickened nurses, have emerged of the Child breathing and crying being put into trash cans to die because the ¿doctor? of muffed the Abortion. God will never be pleased with that sort Barbarism!

I am aware UNBORN babies go through a stage of development BEFORE they are BORN.

I do not condone abortions, MY PREFERENCE, MY CHOICE. I do not condone being FORCED (compelled) by law or otherwise to financially or otherwise support abortions, or food, or shelter, or otherwise for other people not my responsibility.

However I DO support FREE WILL, ie individual choices, for myself and others. And that "CHOICE maker" be accountable for the consequences of their own choices.

You SEEM to be lecturing me BASED on your suspicion I am a advocate for abortion. Quote me, that says any such thing.

 

[th1bill]

Sorry for what? I said nothing about God being subject to OUR opinions. God desires us to SUBMIT unto Him. Learn His WISDOM, His UNDERSTANDING.

I said nothing MORE, that Gods own teaching; individuals are given CHOICES, and individually can freely decide what THEY CHOOSE. IF an individual CHOOSES to kill, murder, abort, that IS their choice. I didn't advocate those things, I said it is "THEIR" choice, and "THEIR" consequence.

It would be awesome for you, if that were true. But iy does not hold up:
I will Sing of Loving Kindness and Justice
…2I will give heed to the blameless way. When will You come to me? I will walk within my house in the integrity of my heart. 3I will set no worthlessthing before my eyes; I hate the work of thosewho fall away; It shall not fasten its grip on me. 4A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil.…
New American Standard Bible
Cross References
Deuteronomy 15:9
"Beware that there is no base thought in your heart, saying, 'The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,' and your eye is hostile toward your poor brother, and you give him nothing; then he may cry to the LORD against you, and it will be a sin in you.
and Jesus said: Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Couple that with what God said in Genesis 6 about killing a man if he murdered, extinguished a life and it really looks as though the godly perspective is to preserve life until He terminate us.

It is a case of man playing God!

 

[Happy]

If that is the case, then why is it that Life for Life is invoked in the event of a child in the womb being killed?


Exodus 21:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

If that is the case, then why is it that Life for Life is invoked in the event of a child in the womb being killed?

It isn't. Read what you just posted.

"that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him;"

The punishment for causing a woman to abort, is determined by the woman's husband.

The punishment for causing MISCHIEF, after causing a woman to abort, is DEATH.

"if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"

"IF" is the caveat, the defining factor, should a death sentence be invoked.

The Death punishment was for MISCHIEF, "NOT" for causing a woman to abort!

Secondly, from the eternal perspective we see that even in the womb we are known of GOd:

And? That is not news. God is ALL knowing. He knows what He creates before it is created. What does God knowing something, have to do with abortion? God also knows those whose BODY and SOUL shall be destroyed, because they rejected Him.

HOW does one enter Gods KINGDOM without being BORN AGAIN, "if" they were NEVER BORN in the first place?

John.3

1. [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
2. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Finally, for the record, I simply think it is a bad idea for infants in the womb to be smoking cigars.

LOL ~ I concur

God bless.

Thank you, and to you and yours as well.

 

[th1bill]

No clue what CF is or did I ever converse or know of anyone named 1b.taylor



Quote me on your assessment.



So? The issue was "unborn", not an individual. Not an individual having a soul.


What does that have to do with the soul?



I am aware UNBORN babies go through a stage of development BEFORE they are BORN.

I do not condone abortions, MY PREFERENCE, MY CHOICE. I do not condone being FORCED (compelled) by law or otherwise to financially or otherwise support abortions, or food, or shelter, or otherwise for other people not my responsibility.

However I DO support FREE WILL, ie individual choices, for myself and others. And that "CHOICE maker" be accountable for the consequences of their own choices.

You SEEM to be lecturing me BASED on your suspicion I am a advocate for abortion. Quote me, that says any such thing.

If you are not on God's side (Gen 9:6) you default into being against Him and I tried to explain at CF that God wants every bit of you, heart, mind, and soul and with a total ciommitment you cannot serve God. You see, God means what He says in Genesis and in other texts about murder.

 

[Happy]

It would be awesome for you, if that were true. But iy does not hold up:
I will Sing of Loving Kindness and Justice
…2I will give heed to the blameless way. When will You come to me? I will walk within my house in the integrity of my heart. 3I will set no worthlessthing before my eyes; I hate the work of thosewho fall away; It shall not fasten its grip on me. 4A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil.…
New American Standard Bible
Cross References
Deuteronomy 15:9
"Beware that there is no base thought in your heart, saying, 'The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,' and your eye is hostile toward your poor brother, and you give him nothing; then he may cry to the LORD against you, and it will be a sin in you.
and Jesus said: Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Couple that with what God said in Genesis 6 about killing a man if he murdered, extinguished a life and it really looks as though the godly perspective is to preserve life until He terminate us.

It is a case of man playing God!

You replied to :
I said nothing about God being subject to OUR opinions. God desires us to SUBMIT unto Him. Learn His WISDOM, His UNDERSTANDING.

I said nothing MORE, that Gods own teaching; individuals are given CHOICES, and individually can freely decide what THEY CHOOSE. IF an individual CHOOSES to kill, murder, abort, that IS their choice. I didn't advocate those things, I said it is "THEIR" choice, and "THEIR" consequence.

You said;

It would be awesome for you, if that were true. But iy does not hold up:

Uh, What I said is true. God is not subject to us. God does desire we submit unto Him. And man does have free will to make choices.

 

[Happy]

If you are not on God's side (Gen 9:6) you default into being against Him and I tried to explain at CF that God wants every bit of you, heart, mind, and soul and with a total ciommitment you cannot serve God. You see, God means what He says in Genesis and in other texts about murder.

Uh, what is your problem? I don't know you. And further I do not require a lecture from you as if you think you are my teacher trying to convince me of something, I already know, and have never spoken against.

 

[Rippon]

There were no movie houses in Spurgeon's lifetime. So C.H. S. did not criticize him for doing something that did not exist. ;-)

The above is from my post #24. In post #3 RM made a false claim regarding Spurgeon and Moody. I set the record right. Clear now?

 

[Rob_BW]

What I heard is old Chuck quit his tobacco because one day he came to a town where he was supposed to hold an evangelistic meeting, looked up, and saw a big face of him on a billboard, with a cigar between his teeth, and the caption, "smoke (name of cigar), the brand Charles Spurgeons love", or something to that effect.
lol.
Should be enough to make somebody with a conscience quit.
That said, no, a tobacco habit, whether it be a cigarillo, a cigarette, a cigar, or a pipe is not a sin.
Consuming alcohol is not a sin, either.
BUT, alcohol can make one look and act and talk like a fool, when excessive.
I remembered one instance, I was working as a quartermaster in an inter-island tugboat in the Philippines, and we were docked waiting for the barges we were towing to be loaded, we went to town, drank from dusk till dawn, and somewhere near dawn, our chief mate went missing, and I was told to look for him.
Found him laying on a ditch, smelling to high heavens, from his mouth and his behind, and he was demanding to be told why there were three moons "up there".
We took him home to the tug, stripped him buck naked on the prow, took his wallet and money from his pants' pockets, took a rope and looped it around him, the armpit area, tightened it so he doesn't slip into the water, and washed his filthy behind by dipping him five times into the sea, half-expecting him to miss a leg each time we pulled him up, because hammerheads abounded in that area.

You may have missed the link I posted earlier. Spurgeon's progeny have pointed out that the stories of his cessation of smoking were not true.

 

[Rob_BW]

In South Vietnam we ate the left over C Rations from WW II and in every meal was a mini-pack or for or five cigarettes of one of the major brands. But my 20 pack of Pall Mall were much fresher.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

In the first years in Iraq, Kuwait had decent PXs, so it was stock up before going over the border. Then it was either snail mail to replenish your stash, or buying local. Miamis, Pine Lights, and a few other brands. They were a bit rough, to say the least.

By my second trip, AAFES was set up pretty well, so you could get American cigarettes easily, but at American prices, of course. I thought about buying the local smokes again, to save money. 50 cents a pack. But the wife, a civilian RN on Bragg, vetoed that idea. I guess those off brands were possibly related to some respiratory illnesses, and she didn't want me taking any chances.

I've been quit 6 years. Wish I'd never started, but I reckon I quit while I was ahead.

 

[th1bill]

You replied to :
I said nothing about God being subject to OUR opinions. God desires us to SUBMIT unto Him. Learn His WISDOM, His UNDERSTANDING.

I said nothing MORE, that Gods own teaching; individuals are given CHOICES, and individually can freely decide what THEY CHOOSE. IF an individual CHOOSES to kill, murder, abort, that IS their choice. I didn't advocate those things, I said it is "THEIR" choice, and "THEIR" consequence.

You said;



Uh, What I said is true. God is not subject to us. God does desire we submit unto Him. And man does have free will to make choices.

In this you answer correctly but I don't know why this thread went from smoking cigars to abortion but it did and now you are trying to change the subject once more, for what? Pride? In the scripture we are to have choice, you are correct, however decision have consequences.

Even the woman that Aborts and is repentant of it will not go unpunished. These girls live, every day, with the knowledge they were a participant in the murder of the most inocent of innocents. That is not an easy thing to do.

In combat I killed and saw my best friend blown into parts of a body. More than once I have awakened my wife screaming at her to get in the d***ed hole before they kill you. Just as 45 years later I dream in remembrance, these girls will also! That is a very bad thing, I know first hand.

 

[Happy]

="th1bill, post: 2302901, member: 9781"]In this you answer correctly but I don't know why this thread went from smoking cigars to abortion but it did and now you are trying to change the subject once more, for what? Pride? In the scripture we are to have choice, you are correct, however decision have consequences.

Sort of one-sided for you to accredit me with topic deflection from cigar smoking, and charging to me pride, when you fail to admit your own deflection and participation!

Even the woman that Aborts and is repentant of it will not go unpunished. These girls live, every day, with the knowledge they were a participant in the murder of the most inocent of innocents. That is not an easy thing to do.

Not news, and not about cigar smoking. Your "pride" showing?

In combat I killed and saw my best friend blown into parts of a body. More than once I have awakened my wife screaming at her to get in the d***ed hole before they kill you. Just as 45 years later I dream in remembrance, these girls will also! That is a very bad thing, I know first hand.

Also not about "cigar smoking".

And BTW ~ there is a difference between MURDER and KILLING.
Despite your false charges of PRIDE, toward me, Thank you for your military service.

 

[DC2]

Happy, this is Darrell C responding. For some reason I have been having problems with my account and waiting for the staff to get it straight.

It isn't. Read what you just posted.

"that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him;"

The "mischief that follows" is in fact the death or injury to the child.

Not the offender causing more mischief than that which he has already caused.

The point remains, it is life for life that is invoked, which means that the child in the womb has a life of his/her own.

Contrary to your statement...

Happy said: ↑

God creates the form (body), (after Adam), in the WOMB of a woman. <-- during the FORMING, the form (body) has no independent LIFE of it's own.

The punishment for causing a woman to abort, is determined by the woman's husband.

Let's look at it again:


Exodus 21:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,


The fruit departing is most likely a premature birth, to which we would have the circumstances in which further mischief (to the child) can be determined. If there is no mischief (harm) the offender suffers penalty according to the woman's husband, yet if there is mischief that follows...

...then the man suffers an equal fate according to the Law.

So look at it closely: no mischief and there is a penalty determined by the husband. IF there is mischief, then the same injury is inflicted upon the offender.

The punishment for causing MISCHIEF, after causing a woman to abort, is DEATH.

IF you are thinking the offender continues to inflict injury/evil, that is not what the text states.

"if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"

"IF" is the caveat, the defining factor, should a death sentence be invoked.

The Death punishment was for MISCHIEF, "NOT" for causing a woman to abort!

Could you show me "if" in the original language?

Nevertheless, the point remains, there are two separate courses of action prescribed in the Law. One if there is no mischief that follows, and one if mischief does follow, which would be injury to the life that is in the womb.

God views that child as a life of their own.

Secondly, from the eternal perspective we see that even in the womb we are known of God:

And? That is not news. God is ALL knowing. He knows what He creates before it is created. What does God knowing something, have to do with abortion? God also knows those whose BODY and SOUL shall be destroyed, because they rejected Him.

What it has to do with is the erroneous assertion that life begins when air is breathed.

By the way, if you read Genesis a little closer you will see that Adam was made a living soul...he wasn't given one.

HOW does one enter Gods KINGDOM without being BORN AGAIN, "if" they were NEVER BORN in the first place?

Good question. Here is the answer: the "birth that takes place when we are regenerated is spiritual, it is not physical, thus it is the first occurrence of being made alive (in Christ) in the life of that individual.

The idea that children in the womb cannot be regenerated unless they are first physically born is a concept that clouds the realities of regeneration. Regeneration is the process of an individual being placed into God, and God in the individual, thus they receive the Life that they were conceived without. The Life of God placed in the believer is a far different subject than the life they receive when they are conceived physically.

John.3

1. [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
2. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So you believe that children that die in the womb are non-persons? That they have no chance of Heaven?


God bless.