Smoking Cigar's

[Happy]

Happy, this is Darrell C responding. For some reason I have been having problems with my account and waiting for the staff to get it straight.

The "mischief that follows" is in fact the death or injury to the child.

Not the offender causing more mischief than that which he has already caused.

The point remains, it is life for life that is invoked, which means that the child in the womb has a life of his/her own.

Contrary to your statement...

Happy said: ↑

God creates the form (body), (after Adam), in the WOMB of a woman. <-- during the FORMING, the form (body) has no independent LIFE of it's own.

God bless.

Point 1 ~ no;
...............the first thing addressed IS the aborting caused, consequence is punishment determined by husband, and fine determined by judge.
................mischief to FOLLOW after the aborting is caused, becomes life for life sentence.

Exodus 21:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, <-- aborting

and yet no mischief follow: <-- no FURTHER mischief to FOLLOW the aborting

he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; <-- punish by husband

and he shall pay as the judges determine. <-- fined according to judges determination

Point 2 ~ A dependent is not an "independent" individual. A baby in the womb IS dependent on the "mother's" blood in the placenta for it to survive in the womb. It is not an independent individual.

God Bless.

 

[Happy]

The fruit departing is most likely a premature birth,
to which we would have the circumstances in which further mischief (to the child) can be determined. If there is no mischief (harm) the offender suffers penalty according to the woman's husband, yet if there is mischief that follows...

...then the man suffers an equal fate according to the Law.

So look at it closely: no mischief and there is a penalty determined by the husband. IF there is mischief, then the same injury is inflicted upon the offender.

IF you are thinking the offender continues to inflict injury/evil, that is not what the text states.

Could you show me "if" in the original language?

Nevertheless, the point remains, there are two separate courses of action prescribed in the Law. One if there is no mischief that follows, and one if mischief does follow, which would be injury to the life that is in the womb.

Okay ~

A man injures a pregnant woman ~ she goes into labor ~ child is birthed ~ all is well ~
husband decides consequence for injury to the woman ~ judge decides fine for injury to woman ~
Should all be well with the baby ~ the case is settled ~ should the "baby" suffer death (after it's birth) ~ then the man would be sentenced to death ~ Yes (regardless if the baby is "premature" or not) ?

God views that child as a life of their own.

I was not speaking of a child. I was speaking of a body not yet formed, ie in the process of being formed.
God gives every SEED, it's own body. God gave Adam the breath of life AFTER his body was formED.
God form(S) the body. You advocate a body not yet form(ED) is a child with a life of its own, who has not yet been born? I disagree.

What it has to do with is the erroneous assertion that life begins when air is breathed.

What scripture notifies you of the first man (from which all others descend), was living BEFORE God breathed into his nostrils?

By the way, if you read Genesis a little closer you will see that Adam was made a living soul...he wasn't given one.

When Adams body was formED, he was made a man. When Adam received the breath of life, he was made a living soul. Was he no longer a man? Or was his body one thing, and his soul another thing and each thing has the identity of Adam?

God IS Life. God does not destroy life. God creates "vessels" and imparts life into those "vessels". When "life" is departed from the "vessels", God either, restores, makes new or destroys the "vessels".

The body is a vessel, it is quickened into LIVING, via a living soul.
The body is maintained in its natural life, via its blood.
When the body's blood stops flowing the body naturally begins to die.
When the body begins to die the living soul, departs the body.
The dead body returns to earth, from whence it came.
The living soul goes to where God sends it; heaven or hell, and remains living, with all senses.

The heart is a vessel. The natural heart of man is where the mans natural spirit (his natural truth) is.
A born again man, receives a "NEW" Seed, ie Christ. (the Seed of God)
A born again man, receives a "NEW" heart.
A born again man, receives a "NEW" Truth, ie Jesus. (the Truth of God)
A born again man, receives a "NEW" spirit, in his "NEW" heart, THUS, the man is THEN prepared to
.....communicate spirit to Spirit, and Spirit to spirit, directly with Christ Jesus, the TRUTH and TEACHER.
A born again man, LIKE his body, LIKE his soul, LIKE his spirit, are all identified as the man, called by his name, he, him, his, etc.

Scripture teaches for a man to become reconciled unto God, the man must become WHOLE, and that speaks to the man changing from his corrupt body, and soul, and spirit, and heart to ALL the necessary changes being accomplished.

Good question. Here is the answer: the "birth that takes place when we are regenerated is spiritual, it is not physical, thus it is the first occurrence of being made alive (in Christ) in the life of that individual.

No. A natural birth, from a corrupt seed, procreating a human, must first occur, BEFORE a spiritual birth,
from a incorruptible Seed can be accomplished.

The idea that children in the womb cannot be regenerated unless they are first physically born is a concept that clouds the realities of regeneration. Regeneration is the process of an individual being placed into God, and God in the individual, thus they receive the Life that they were conceived without.

The idea that a Spiritual birth without a natural birth is not scriptural.

John.3

1. [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The Life of God placed in the believer is a far different subject than the life they receive when they are conceived physically.

Natural (earthly) conception is via a corrupt seed. A Spiritual birth is via Gods incorruptible Seed.

So you believe that children that die in the womb are non-persons?

I believe that babies that die in the womb are not born!
I believe that babies that die in the womb have no opportunity to become born AGAIN (obviously, because they were never born to begin with), and will not enter in the Kingdom of God according to Jesus' teaching;

John.3

1. [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John.3

1. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1. 
   
   

That they have no chance of Heaven?

They cannot enter the kingdom of God. Make of that what you will.

God bless.

 

[Don]

Babies delivered as early as 21 weeks can survive.

Babies start receiving oxygen as soon as they start developing.

Deep sea divers will use a fluid to breath at extreme depths; do they die because they're no longer breathing air, but oxygenated fluid?

A 9-month fetus transitions from breathing oxygenated fluid to breathing air; but even though they've been fully viable and could live outside the womb for up to four months before this point, they're not alive because they haven't breathed straight air?

When God breathed life into man, did He breath oxygen/nitrogen into him, or did He instill the soul?

 

[Happy]

Babies delivered as early as 21 weeks can survive.

Babies start receiving oxygen as soon as they start developing.

A fetus in the womb is not "independent", rather is "dependent" upon on blood in the mother's placenta.

Blood Circulation in the Fetus and Newborn
How does the fetal circulatory system work?

During pregnancy, the unborn baby (fetus) depends on its mother for nourishment and oxygen. Since the fetus doesn’t breathe air, his or her blood circulates differently than it does after birth:

• The placenta is the organ that develops and implants in the mother's womb (uterus) during pregnancy. The unborn baby is connected to the placenta by the umbilical cord.
  
  
• All the necessary nutrition, oxygen, and life support from the mother’s blood goes through the placenta and to the baby through blood vessels in the umbilical cord.
  
  
• Waste products and carbon dioxide from the baby are sent back through the umbilical cord blood vessels and placenta to the mother's circulation to be eliminated.

While the baby is still in the uterus, his or her lungs are not being used. The baby’s liver is not fully developed. Circulating blood bypasses the lungs and liver by flowing in different pathways and through special openings called shunts.

Blood flow in the unborn baby follows this pathway:

• Oxygen and nutrients from the mother's blood are transferred across the placenta to the fetus through the umbilical cord.
  
  
• This enriched blood flows through the umbilical vein toward the baby’s liver. There it moves through a shunt called the ductus venosus.
  
  
• This allows some of the blood to go to the liver. But most of this highly oxygenated blood flows to a large vessel called the inferior vena cava and then into the right atrium of the heart.

Here is what happens inside the fetal heart:

• When oxygenated blood from the mother enters the right side of the heart it flows into the upper chamber (the right atrium). Most of the blood flows across to the left atrium through a shunt called the foramen ovale.
  
  
• From the left atrium, blood moves down into the lower chamber of the heart (the left ventricle). It is then pumped into the first part of the large artery coming from the heart (the ascending aorta).
  
  
• From the aorta, the oxygen-rich blood is sent to the brain and to the heart muscle itself. Blood is also sent to the lower body.
  
  
• Blood returning to the heart from the fetal body contains carbon dioxide and waste products as it enters the right atrium. It flows down into the right ventricle, where it normally would be sent to the lungs to be oxygenated. Instead, it bypasses the lungs and flows through the ductus arteriosus into the descending aorta, which connects to the umbilical arteries. From there, blood flows back into the placenta. There the carbon dioxide and waste products are released into the mother's circulatory system. Oxygen and nutrients from the mother's blood are transferred across the placenta. Then the cycle starts again.

At birth, major changes take place. The umbilical cord is clamped and the baby no longer receives oxygen and nutrients from the mother. With the first breaths of air, the lungs begin to expand, and the ductus arteriosus and the foramen ovale both close. The baby's circulation and blood flow through the heart now function like an adult's.

source:
Blood Circulation in the Fetus and Newborn - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

 

[Happy]

Babies delivered as early as 21 weeks can survive.

The point was not about the survival rate of a DELIVERED, ie BORN individual, but rather about an UNBORN dependent fetus in the womb.

A 9-month fetus transitions from breathing oxygenated fluid to breathing air; but even though they've been fully viable and could live outside the womb for up to four months before this point, they're not alive because they haven't breathed straight air?

Fetus' are NOT "born"! They are in the womb and dependent upon the mother, during their growth stage.

 

[Happy]

When God breathed life into man, did He breath oxygen/nitrogen into him, or did He instill the soul?

When God breathed LIFE into man.....

Thus you acknowledge A man existed, without life?

What was that man? A complete formed (body), WITHOUT LIFE? Or, a body still in the process of becoming formed, (as is the case with a fetus) ?

And was that FORM / Body, ie Man, still a man AFTER He received LIFE, via Gods breath?

 

[Darrell C]

Point 1 ~ no;
...............the first thing addressed IS the aborting caused, consequence is punishment determined by husband, and fine determined by judge.
................mischief to FOLLOW after the aborting is caused, becomes life for life sentence.

Exodus 21:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, <-- aborting

and yet no mischief follow: <-- no FURTHER mischief to FOLLOW the aborting

he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; <-- punish by husband

and he shall pay as the judges determine. <-- fined according to judges determination

The first problem you have is you are imposing abortion into the text. It doesn't state that.

What it states is that the "fruit departs the mother," or in other words...premature birth.

Secondly, I already addressed the text in the previous post and you have ignored it.

There are two outcomes, the first is that the child is prematurely born and there is no mischief that follows, at which time the offender is penalized (presumably with a fine), and the second is that mischief does follow and that is when...

...life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth is invoked.

In other words, if the child is prematurely born and loses a leg, the offender will pay with his own leg. If the child ends up dying...

...the offender will pay with his own life.

And the central point to all of this is that, just as in some states where someone who kills is woman who is pregnant is charged with double homicide, even so God views the life in the womb as an individual life, distinct from the mother, and that is why life for life is invoked.

Point 2 ~ A dependent is not an "independent" individual. A baby in the womb IS dependent on the "mother's" blood in the placenta for it to survive in the womb. It is not an independent individual.

God Bless.

That is irrelevant. Even after a child is born they are still "dependent."

You can argue the traditional Jewish view that life does not begin until a child breathes their first breath, but, you err when you imply "the breath of life" breathed into Adam was...air.

It was spirit that God breathed into Adam, not air.

And this goes to the need to properly understand Biblical usage of the word "soul." Life consists of two parts, body and spirit. It is the spirit that has life in both a physical as well as everlasting sense. When Christ died, and reappeared to the disciples, they thought they had seen a ghost (spirit), and the Lord corrects them:


Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


The disciples understood life of men to consist of body and spirit, and when they died, the spirit departed the body. This is what they supposed they were seeing when they saw the Lord, because they knew He had died. The Lord confirms their understanding for us, and assures them this is not the case, for a spirit does not have flesh and bone, so it is impossible that they are simply seeing His Spirit.

So you will also have to conclude that one does not receive their spirit in the womb, but only after they are physically born.

The babe in the womb is an independent individual in the sense they are not the same individual as the mother, but a unique person of their own.

That is God's view, and should be our view as well.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Okay ~

A man injures a pregnant woman ~ she goes into labor ~ child is birthed ~ all is well ~
husband decides consequence for injury to the woman ~ judge decides fine for injury to woman ~
Should all be well with the baby ~ the case is settled ~ should the "baby" suffer death (after it's birth) ~ then the man would be sentenced to death ~ Yes (regardless if the baby is "premature" or not) ?

Is that a question? lol

The above agrees with the text.

Now, the point is...why is the man (the offender) held accountable for his life if the child is not considered to be a life of their own?

That is the point, because God views the child as a life, the offender is held accountable for whatever injury is inflicted upon the child, as well as the mother. The Law covers both of them.

I was not speaking of a child. I was speaking of a body not yet formed, ie in the process of being formed.

The child in our text is still in the process of formation. A child that is born is still in the process of formation.

Relevance? None.

God gives every SEED, it's own body. God gave Adam the breath of life AFTER his body was formED.

That is abusing the context. Paul makes the point that there are different types of bodies, and distinguishes between them.

All humanity shares the same body.

God form(S) the body. You advocate a body not yet form(ED) is a child with a life of its own, who has not yet been born? I disagree.

I don't advocate for that view...God does.

It is not the air breathed, or the blood that flows...that makes the individual a unique person. It is the spirit of men that makes them a unique individual.

What it has to do with is the erroneous assertion that life begins when air is breathed.

What scripture notifies you of the first man (from which all others descend), was living BEFORE God breathed into his nostrils?

First, You can't equate the creation of Adam with Procreation, it is an entirely different process.

Secondly, it was not air that made Adam become a living soul, it was Spirit.

Are you seriously going to suggest that God, Who is Spirit...breathed air into a lifeless body and it became a living soul?

I believe that babies that die in the womb are not born!

This is true, but holds no relevance in a discussion concerning being born again, because new birth is not a physical process.

I believe that babies that die in the womb have no opportunity to become born AGAIN (obviously, because they were never born to begin with),

Well, you will need to learn what it means to be born again, then you will see that physical birth has nothing to do with regeneration.

The "again" goes back to the death Adam suffered, which was spiritual, not physical. And while John 3 is often translated "born again," we cannot ignore that the word in view means "from above," and the point is that one must be born of God, rather than undergoing a process for the second time:


John 3:5-6
King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Look at it. The context deals with men being born of the Spirit. While in 2 Peter we do see "again" in the context, the primary teaching of regeneration makes it clear that in view is man being born of God:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


So I tell you for the purpose of helping you to understand this better, that you are in error to equate regeneration with physical birth.

and will not enter in the Kingdom of God according to Jesus' teaching;

That is funny, because not one Old Testament Saint was Born Again...yet few would deny that men like Abraham, Moses, and David...are in Heaven.

And it is not Christ's teaching that children who die in the womb cannot go to Heaven, it is the teaching of numerous fallible Theological Systems. My suggestion to you is to study the Word of God on this subject and you will come to understand that God has sufficient grace for the children who die prior to the point where they have the revelation of God provided to them.

John.3

1. [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The water in view here is the Word of God, and holds within it the concept of cleansing, which is promised of God in Ezekiel 36:22-27. Men are saved by hearing the Gospel, and being born again. That is specific to this Age (beginning at Pentecost).

John.3

1. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Now consider what this would mean if you translated it thus:


John 3:7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [a]again.’
Footnotes:

John 3:7 Or from above


It would fit the context better, for the same concept is stated here:


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The primary concept we find in the teaching, again, is that we must be born of GOd, which is contrasted to our natural condition, that is, being born physically.

They cannot enter the kingdom of God. Make of that what you will.

God bless.

If the child that dies in the womb cannot enter into the Kingdom of GOd, then neither can any Saint prior to the coming of the Spirit on Pentecost.

It is not until Pentecost that believers begin to be born again.

That "power" began after Christ came:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Give it some thought.


God bless.

 

[th1bill]

A fetus in the womb is not "independent", rather is "dependent" upon on blood in the mother's placenta.

Blood Circulation in the Fetus and Newborn
How does the fetal circulatory system work?

During pregnancy, the unborn baby (fetus) depends on its mother for nourishment and oxygen. Since the fetus doesn’t breathe air, his or her blood circulates differently than it does after birth:

The placenta is the organ that develops and implants in the mother's womb (uterus) during pregnancy. The unborn baby is connected to the placenta by the umbilical cord.
All the necessary nutrition, oxygen, and life support from the mother’s blood goes through the placenta and to the baby through blood vessels in the umbilical cord.
Waste products and carbon dioxide from the baby are sent back through the umbilical cord blood vessels and placenta to the mother's circulation to be eliminated.



While the baby is still in the uterus, his or her lungs are not being used. The baby’s liver is not fully developed. Circulating blood bypasses the lungs and liver by flowing in different pathways and through special openings called shunts.

Blood flow in the unborn baby follows this pathway:

Oxygen and nutrients from the mother's blood are transferred across the placenta to the fetus through the umbilical cord.
This enriched blood flows through the umbilical vein toward the baby’s liver. There it moves through a shunt called the ductus venosus.
This allows some of the blood to go to the liver. But most of this highly oxygenated blood flows to a large vessel called the inferior vena cava and then into the right atrium of the heart.
Here is what happens inside the fetal heart:

When oxygenated blood from the mother enters the right side of the heart it flows into the upper chamber (the right atrium). Most of the blood flows across to the left atrium through a shunt called the foramen ovale.
From the left atrium, blood moves down into the lower chamber of the heart (the left ventricle). It is then pumped into the first part of the large artery coming from the heart (the ascending aorta).
From the aorta, the oxygen-rich blood is sent to the brain and to the heart muscle itself. Blood is also sent to the lower body.
Blood returning to the heart from the fetal body contains carbon dioxide and waste products as it enters the right atrium. It flows down into the right ventricle, where it normally would be sent to the lungs to be oxygenated. Instead, it bypasses the lungs and flows through the ductus arteriosus into the descending aorta, which connects to the umbilical arteries. From there, blood flows back into the placenta. There the carbon dioxide and waste products are released into the mother's circulatory system. Oxygen and nutrients from the mother's blood are transferred across the placenta. Then the cycle starts again.
At birth, major changes take place. The umbilical cord is clamped and the baby no longer receives oxygen and nutrients from the mother. With the first breaths of air, the lungs begin to expand, and the ductus arteriosus and the foramen ovale both close. The baby's circulation and blood flow through the heart now function like an adult's.

source:
Blood Circulation in the Fetus and Newborn - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

fe·tus
ˈfēdəs/
noun

an unborn offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.
synonyms: embryo, unborn baby/child
"an ultrasonic photo of the fetus"

Using a Latin term for Baby does nothing for the case of the ungodly, barbaric, slaughter of tens of millions of babies, and God does not smile on such barbarism.

 

[Rolfe]

Using a Latin term for Baby does nothing for the case of the ungodly, barbaric, slaughter of tens of millions of babies, and God does not smile on such barbarism.

Along with that thought, I hate the term unborn. It is dehumanizing. Preborn would be more accurate.

 

[th1bill]

A fetus in the womb is not "independent", rather is "dependent" upon on blood in the mother's placenta.

Blood Circulation in the Fetus and Newborn
How does the fetal circulatory system work?

During pregnancy, the unborn baby (fetus) depends on its mother for nourishment and oxygen. Since the fetus doesn’t breathe air, his or her blood circulates differently than it does after birth:

• The placenta is the organ that develops and implants in the mother's womb (uterus) during pregnancy. The unborn baby is connected to the placenta by the umbilical cord.
  
  
• All the necessary nutrition, oxygen, and life support from the mother’s blood goes through the placenta and to the baby through blood vessels in the umbilical cord.
  
  
• Waste products and carbon dioxide from the baby are sent back through the umbilical cord blood vessels and placenta to the mother's circulation to be eliminated.

While the baby is still in the uterus, his or her lungs are not being used. The baby’s liver is not fully developed. Circulating blood bypasses the lungs and liver by flowing in different pathways and through special openings called shunts.

Blood flow in the unborn baby follows this pathway:

• Oxygen and nutrients from the mother's blood are transferred across the placenta to the fetus through the umbilical cord.
  
  
• This enriched blood flows through the umbilical vein toward the baby’s liver. There it moves through a shunt called the ductus venosus.
  
  
• This allows some of the blood to go to the liver. But most of this highly oxygenated blood flows to a large vessel called the inferior vena cava and then into the right atrium of the heart.

Here is what happens inside the fetal heart:

• When oxygenated blood from the mother enters the right side of the heart it flows into the upper chamber (the right atrium). Most of the blood flows across to the left atrium through a shunt called the foramen ovale.
  
  
• From the left atrium, blood moves down into the lower chamber of the heart (the left ventricle). It is then pumped into the first part of the large artery coming from the heart (the ascending aorta).
  
  
• From the aorta, the oxygen-rich blood is sent to the brain and to the heart muscle itself. Blood is also sent to the lower body.
  
  
• Blood returning to the heart from the fetal body contains carbon dioxide and waste products as it enters the right atrium. It flows down into the right ventricle, where it normally would be sent to the lungs to be oxygenated. Instead, it bypasses the lungs and flows through the ductus arteriosus into the descending aorta, which connects to the umbilical arteries. From there, blood flows back into the placenta. There the carbon dioxide and waste products are released into the mother's circulatory system. Oxygen and nutrients from the mother's blood are transferred across the placenta. Then the cycle starts again.

At birth, major changes take place. The umbilical cord is clamped and the baby no longer receives oxygen and nutrients from the mother. With the first breaths of air, the lungs begin to expand, and the ductus arteriosus and the foramen ovale both close. The baby's circulation and blood flow through the heart now function like an adult's.

source:
Blood Circulation in the Fetus and Newborn - Health Encyclopedia - University of Rochester Medical Center

You keep using the English Word, dependent in the wrong manor. If I am addressing the IRS my dependents are my children. But they are dependent upon their mother from the time they are conceived until their mother dies. They rely on their mother for their livelihood. Before Birth and after.
1Tim 5:8 says, But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Slaughtering children God has seen fit to implant is evil on any level. First, the father and the mother have fallen into sin, no matter the age of the parents except they are married before God. Second, they are breaking a command from God that dates re-Ten Commandments and is found in Genesis 9:6. Third, the very methods used to perform these abortions is heinous beyond belief the exceeds the barbarous acts of the World War Two,

 

[Don]

A fetus in the womb is not "independent", rather is "dependent" upon on blood in the mother's placenta.

Nothing in there disputes what I wrote. ESPECIALLY the part that starts with "At birth...." The baby receives oxygen (the "breath of life," as you're referring to it); and simply processes it differently until it leaves the womb.

 

[InTheLight]

So this thread about smoking Ceegar's has morphed into God's breath of life.

Irony.

Maybe this thread should be closed? 133 responses so far and it's so far off-topic it's incredible.

 

[Happy]

The first problem you have is you are imposing abortion into the text. It doesn't state that.

Perhaps we both have a little problem. It does not say, aborted or premature or a birth. It says her fruit (which is her fetus in her womb departed from where it was, ie the womb).

Nothing indicates she was 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 months pregnant, only that she was.

To say aborted or premature, is not revealed.

Secondly, I already addressed the text in the previous post and you have ignored it.

There are two outcomes, the first is that the child is prematurely born and there is no mischief that follows, at which time the offender is penalized (presumably with a fine), and the second is that mischief does follow and that is when...

...life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth is invoked.

No, I didn't ignore. I already addressed.

And the central point to all of this is that, just as in some states where someone who kills is woman who is pregnant is charged with double homicide, even so God views the life in the womb as an individual life, distinct from the mother, and that is why life for life is invoked.

What carnal men DO, is not the issue.
Life for life is invoked, BECAUSE that sentence FOLLOWS AFTER a birth!

That is irrelevant. Even after a child is born they are still "dependent."

Really? I thought they were "gifts" for the "earthly parents" to be temporary stewards of those gifts.
It is not about the baby being a dependent AFTER it is born, and even then the mother is not necessary.
It is about the fetus being absolutely dependent on the mother, IN the womb.

You can argue the traditional Jewish view that life does not begin until a child breathes their first breath, but, you err when you imply "the breath of life" breathed into Adam was...air.

That's odd, because I did not say or imply such.

And this goes to the need to properly understand Biblical usage of the word "soul." Life consists of two parts, body and spirit. It is the spirit that has life in both a physical as well as everlasting sense.

Scripture disagrees with you, as do I.

When Christ died, and reappeared to the disciples, they thought they had seen a ghost (spirit), and the Lord corrects them:


Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The disciples understood life of men to consist of body and spirit, and when they died, the spirit departed the body. This is what they supposed they were seeing when they saw the Lord, because they knew He had died. The Lord confirms their understanding for us, and assures them this is not the case, for a spirit does not have flesh and bone, so it is impossible that they are simply seeing His Spirit.

So you will also have to conclude that one does not receive their spirit in the womb, but only after they are physically born.

The babe in the womb is an independent individual in the sense they are not the same individual as the mother, but a unique person of their own.

That is God's view, and should be our view as well.


God bless.

4Ezra.3

1. [5] And gavest a body unto Adam without soul, which was the workmanship of thine hands, and didst breathe into him the breath of life, and he was made living before thee.

Wis.9

1. [15] For the corruptible body presseth down the soul, and the earthy tabernacle weigheth down the mind that museth upon many things.

The body is formed by God in the womb. It is dependent upon the mothers blood in the placenta.
When the body exits the womb, it is born, separated from the dependency of the mothers blood and receives the BREATH OF LIFE from God, which is a LIVING SOUL.

The baby's OWN blood, becomes the life of the baby's body. It is now an independent earthling. The living soul of the baby, is the life FROM God in that independent earthling.
The baby's OWN "spirit" is "natural". It will mature to be the individual's own "natural" truth in his heart, which will be based on what the earthling LEARNS, in his carnal MIND, and picks and chooses to believe as TRUTH.

So - EVERY born earthling, receives a BODY, procreated from a Human corrupt seed, and Formed by God in the womb.
Once BORN, every earthling, receives the BREATH of LIFE from God, which is a Living Soul.

Two separate things; Body and Soul

The seed that produced the body, IS corrupt. The Soul in the body, becomes corrupt.

Something corrupt, IS "dead to God".

Death is in two forms ~ Physical or Spiritual ~ Physical pertains to the carnal ~ Spiritual pertains to heavenly/ Godly.

"IF" an earthly CHOOSES to submit unto the Lord in faithfulness ~ His corrupt Body becomes forgiven, dead "WITH CHRIST", sanctified, set aside, JUSTIFIED to become "later" CHANGED into a glorious body.

"ALSO" ~ the Living soul becomes RESTORED, called "saved" ~ thus becomes PURE, holy, as it was when God imparted it into the body.

"ALSO" ~ a NEW heart is given ~ called circumcision of the heart ~ a pure, holy heart.

"ALSO" ~ a NEW spirit is given within that NEW heart ~ which is called "born again".

"ALSO" ~ what is given THAT CAUSES these changes within a body ~ IS the Seed of God, who IS Christ.

"ALSO" ~ what is given within the changes IN the body ~ IS the Spirit of God which enters the NEW heart of the body, and FEEDS that body, Gods TRUTH, His Spiritual TRUTHS, just as JESUS (the truth and teacher) did when He was manifested in the Likeness as a man, and FED (by speaking and teaching) men face to face.....we now have Christ Jesus feeding us (teaching us), Gods Truth, His Spirit to our new spirit.

"IF" such a man has committed himself unto the Lord, AS Physically dies (because the life of his body, ie the blood has stopped flowing), The BODY is buried and RETURNS to dust.

The Living soul, goes to heaven, (which is now Paradise) and is KEPT living, being sustained, BY, the Tree of Life.

The New Spirit of man, goes to Gods hand, and praises God, just like Scripture teaches.

"WHEN" the Lord "bodily" RETURNS ~ He shall descend from Heaven to the clouds ~ AND call up to the clouds ~ His Church "members" ~ ie ALL the BODIES from the graves (physically dead in Christ) AND ALL the BODIES from the earth (physically alive, but dead in Christ) AND shall have their reward with Him. They shall receive, their NEW glorious bodies, and the imparting of their restored soul and their new spirit. And thereafter the Lord shall THEN descend from the clouds to earth.

The body, soul, & spirit of man are separate things and "changed" at separate times according to Gods ORDER of His Way. And Gods ORDER, which pleases Him is to WHOLLY change a man ~ body, soul and spirit. Which is only effected, when a man is in faithfulness to God and submits unto Him.

And Scripture teaches this knowledge and Gods Spirit "within" a man teaches His "understanding" thereof.

1Thes.5

1. [23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A man WHO never comes into accepting the Lord, (during his physical life-time on earth), will never receive a NEW heart, New spirit, or indwelling of the Lords spirit, and his consequence will be all life departed from his body and soul, and his body and soul destroyed in hell.

Matt.10

1. [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Happy]

You keep using the English Word, dependent in the wrong manor. If I am addressing the IRS my dependents are my children. But they are dependent upon their mother from the time they are conceived until their mother dies. They rely on their mother for their livelihood. Before Birth and after.
1Tim 5:8 says, But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Slaughtering children God has seen fit to implant is evil on any level. First, the father and the mother have fallen into sin, no matter the age of the parents except they are married before God. Second, they are breaking a command from God that dates re-Ten Commandments and is found in Genesis 9:6. Third, the very methods used to perform these abortions is heinous beyond belief the exceeds the barbarous acts of the World War Two,

No. I am using "dependent" according to the ORDER of God. Every woman does NOT have a placenta.
Only those WHO have conceived, have a placenta, according to Gods WAY of WHERE He will FORM the seed of an earthling.

BORN babies are gifts to the parents, and of course the parents should provide for them ~ they are gifts that God has TEMPORARILY given the parents STEWARDSHIP over them.

I am well aware of what forced abortions do.

 

[HankD]

Already did.

God formed Adam - formED indicating the BODY was completed, but not yet brought into its own independent living state.

God THEN - gave that form (BODY), LIFE, via His breath. Thus it is the BLOOD of BODY, that IS the LIFE "OF" the BODY, (as Scripture I gave states) and the breath of God, that is the LIFE "OF" of the soul, (as Scripture I gave states).

Perhaps you believe a baby in the womb BREATHES (inhales and exhales), and capable of receiving the breath of life from God, BEFORE it is competed forming. I don't. Scripture does not support that theory, and neither does science.

The point of anyone breathing is to obtain oxygen, and a baby in the womb is dependent upon the mothers blood, via oxygen in the placenta to sustain the baby DURING formation.

I have given Scripture to support what "I" trust, but I can not understand it "FOR YOU".

You may certainly counter what I have said, with Scripture that states a person in the womb DOES have a soul.

Adam was formed outside a human womb, the exposition you have given is therefore fallacious.

The blood of the baby in the womb of the mother IS OXYGENATED by the mother and therefore supports the life (soul-nephesh) of the baby in the womb.

Exodus 21
22 If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 "But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,

life - nephesh

The Hebrew word nephesh is used and is usually translated as SOUL or LIFE in the OT

HankD

 

[Don]

Thank you, Hank. I would also add that not only was Adam formed outside the womb, he was shaped of clay. Eve was created from a part of Adam. Ever since then, humans have been created from a part of both men and women, not clay. Thus, "breathed life into" for Adam has a different connotation than for pre-born humans.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 3 PM Pacific.

 

[Rob_BW]

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 3 PM Pacific.

Are you telling us the smoking lamp is out?

 

[Don]

And the humidor is closed....