Smoking Cigars

[evangelist6589]

Why are there Baptist Churches that will place someone under church discipline for smoking a cigar? Yes smoking is not healthy for the body, but on occasion I see no harm with it. I mean this is a grey area (like alcohol) and churches have no right and often get themselves in trouble for placing someone under discipline for a grey area. What say you? Whats your reasoning for grey areas?

 

[HAMel]

Why are there Baptist Churches that will place someone under church discipline for smoking a cigar? Yes smoking is not healthy for the body, but on occasion I see no harm with it. I mean this is a grey area (like alcohol) and churches have no right and often get themselves in trouble for placing someone under discipline for a grey area. What say you? Whats your reasoning for grey areas?

Why? ...piousness!

I live in (once) tobacco country, Eastern NC. The Broad Leaf was king. Let me tell you a little story that happened to me. Shortly after coming to the Lord we relocated to Danville, VA (also tobacco country) and became members of a Baptist Church. I still smoked but volunteer to drive their Church Bus as no one else would step up to the plate.

I never smoked on church property or around any of the members but one Sunday Morning I went for the bus to make my rounds and it was gone! Come to find out the Pastor had found another to drive the vehicle..., one who didn't use tobacco.

I was upset to say the least but come to find out..., The eldest deacon of the church was a farmer and grew tobacco!

Then, once this "other" driver sold insurance to everyone in the church he moved on to another place of worship. This boy had been a Baptist, a Methodist, a Mormon, a Church of God member, a Holiness, you name it and he had been one.

Visit any Baptist church in Tennessee or Kentucky and ask if any of those folks sip a little Home Brew (Whiskey) now and then.

I don't see where smoking a cigar, pipe, cigarette or chewing a plug is going to send anyone to hell. It might not help ones testimony but then again..., some ex-Hell's Angels now ride proclaiming the Gospel to other bikers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why are there Baptist Churches that will place someone under church discipline for smoking a cigar? Yes smoking is not healthy for the body, but on occasion I see no harm with it. I mean this is a grey area (like alcohol) and churches have no right and often get themselves in trouble for placing someone under discipline for a grey area. What say you? Whats your reasoning for grey areas?

Well..... its called legalism.....or the retentivenessSneaky as in (anal) of the need to be correct with everything humans do in life. It could drive ya nuts if ya let it, so dont let it!Biggrin

 

[HAMel]

EW&F, "retentiveness". I like that. Yep, you're right on target.

They can spot a speck in another's eye but fail to notice the beam in their own eye.

 

[Rolfe]

Why are there Baptist Churches that will place someone under church discipline for smoking a cigar? Yes smoking is not healthy for the body, but on occasion I see no harm with it. I mean this is a grey area (like alcohol) and churches have no right and often get themselves in trouble for placing someone under discipline for a grey area. What say you? Whats your reasoning for grey areas?

Nothing like a Gran Habano Gran Reserva 2010 with a Mike's Lemonade...

*laugh*

 

[Rolfe]

Just realized how appropriate my avatar is to this thread.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EW&F, "retentiveness". I like that. Yep, you're right on target.

They can spot a speck in another's eye but fail to notice the beam in their own eye.

Brother, I just calls dem as I see's dem. Sneaky

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nothing like a Gran Habano Gran Reserva 2010 with a Mike's Lemonade...

*laugh*

Ahhh ......I prefer them with 12 yr old single malt scotch..

 

[TCassidy]

It would depend on what your church covenant says. The boiler plate baptist church covenant usually says something like:

Having been led, as we believe, by the Spirit of God, to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior, and on the profession of our faith, having been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, we do now in the presence of God, angels and this assembly, most solemnly and joyfully enter into covenant with one another as one body in Christ.

We engage, therefore, by the aid of the Holy Spirit, to walk together in Christian love; to strive for the advancement of this church in knowledge, holiness, and comfort; to promote its prosperity and spirituality; to sustain its worship, ordinances, discipline and doctrines; to contribute cheerfully and regularly to the support of the ministry, the expense of the church, the relief of the poor and the spread of the gospel through all nations.

We also engage to maintain family and secret devotions; to religiously educate our children; to seek the salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world; to be just in our dealings, faithful in our engagements and exemplary in our deportment; to avoid all tattling, backbiting and excessive anger; to abstain from the sale and use of intoxicating drink as a beverage; and to be zealous in our efforts to advance the kingdom of our Savior.

We further engage to watch over one another in brotherly love; to remember each other in prayer; to aid each other in sickness and distress; to cultivate Christian sympathy in feeling and courtesy in speech; to be slow to take offense, but always ready for reconciliation, and mindful of the rules of our Savior to secure it without delay.

We moreover engage that when we remove from this place, we will, as soon as possible, unite with some other church, where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God's Word.

However, newer revisions started to show up back in the 1960s that include the words:

We also engage to maintain family and secret devotion; to religiously educate our children; to seek the salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world; to be just in our dealings; faithful in our engagements, and exemplary in our deportment; to avoid all tattling, backbiting, and excessive anger; to abstain from the sale of, and use of, destructive drugs or intoxicating drinks as a beverage; to shun pornography; to be zealous in our efforts to advance the kingdom of our Saviour.

So, it seems it is up to the church covenant you agreed to when you joined the church. If it doesn't mention it then you should be free to exercise your Christian liberty. If it does mention it you are bound by your agreement to the church covenant as long as you remain a member. If what you want to do violates the church covenant you should find a different church. And this time read the covenant you are agreeing to before joining.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why are there Baptist Churches that will place someone under church discipline for smoking a cigar? Yes smoking is not healthy for the body, but on occasion I see no harm with it. I mean this is a grey area (like alcohol) and churches have no right and often get themselves in trouble for placing someone under discipline for a grey area. What say you? Whats your reasoning for grey areas?

Where are these churches?

 

[Alcott]

This thread appears on a weekend in which I have been considering pipe smoking once again. Cigars and pipe smoking seem to be related in the "how harmful" sense, going back, at least, to the well-known-- perhaps exalted-- surgeon general's report of 1964. Since that report so largely linked cigarettes with health hazards, primarily cancer-- with that very intention, which has always cast doubt on its scientific objectivity-- it does not say a lot about cigars and pipe smoking. It does mention them on pages 92 and 112 (? as I'm going from memory), and it says there is very little difference in longevity between pipe smoker and nonsmokers, and even goes so far as to indicate that pipe smokers who 'don't inhale' even have a longer expected longevity than nonsmokers. So it's little wonder that for years it was cigarettes which got all the flak, requiring warnings and limiting their advertising, et al. It wasn't until the 80's and 90's that other forms of smoking, and smokeless tobaccos, started getting similar restrictions as cigarettes.

During that time, I bucked the trend toward cigarettes (though I did smoke a few) and, at my high school, the snuff fad, particularly the promoted Skoal and Copenhagen brands, and I went for pipe smoking. One reason, I knew, was because of its association with sailors and navigation (sea novels and movies were my favorites), as well as with deep thinkers, such as Einstein, and Fred MacMurray and his character on one of my favorite shows, My Three Sons. It seemed to fit my calm, laid-back approach, which I now know is defined as a "type B personality."

And I think that may be what really differentiates pipe smokers from cigarette smokers, who tend more toward type A personalities. That means it is probably other factors that make the difference in health problems and longevity; smoking being only one factor, while anxiety and stress play a bigger role, and cause a type A to crave many quick fixes, and thus to have many smokes and to inhale..

Nevertheless, smoking, while it seems to be a stress reducer, is a stimulant.And between the ages of 16 and 23 I was hooked on smoking surely as much as if I smoked cigarettes. Once I did quit for about 6 months, then a deep disappointment seemed to lower that shield I had put up (because I let it), and it was as if I had not quit. One bowl full destroyed my resistance. About 10 years ago I went through something similar to what I have now-- I played with the idea that it wouldn't be the same and I could just smoke once a day, as in my 'unwinding' time when I get home from work. And, of course, if we continue to entertain a vice that no one is going to stop us from, we'll eventually do it.So I did it, and it really wasn't the same. But I quickly went to cigars and cigarillos, as if pipe smoking didn't satisfy any more, and that was what proved hard to stop.

So I don't know what triggers these rather sudden reversions, which come only rarely, but if I let them in, they can rekindle old addictions, sometimes in surprising ways. I may have to just deal with it again.

 

[Revmitchell]

As a former smoker I can say that lighting something on fire and intentionally inhaling the smoke from it is just plain. Dumb.

 

[JonC]

Evan, since you are in Colorado, have you notices this Issue (drinking and smoking) extending to prohibiting or allowing marijuana?

 

[InTheLight]

Where are these churches?

I'm trying to figure that out as well.

Could they be the churches with tract walls? The ones that don't have outreach programs? Or the ones that don't preach repentance and use the Law when evangelizing?

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo using Tapatalk.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm trying to figure that out as well.

Could they be the churches with tract walls? The ones that don't have outreach programs? Or the ones that don't preach repentance and use the Law when evangelizing?

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo using Tapatalk.

We have a track cart. We preach repentance (because it is scriptural). We do not enforce no smoking.

 

[Rolfe]

Evan- What would John Piper do?

http://babylonbee.com/news/john-piper-announces-launch-of-boutique-pipe-company/

 

[padredurand]

Sixteen posts about cigars and nobody mentioned Spurgeon?

"
The matter was widely discussed both in the newspapers and in private circles; and as the phrase "smoking to the glory of God" became associated with his name, Spurgeon addressed a letter to The Daily Telegraph with a view of scattering any misapprehension which might arise. The pastor of the Tabernacle wrote:

"I demur altogether and most positively to the statement that to smoke tobacco is in itself a sin. It may become so, as any other indifferent action may, but as an action it is no sin. Together with hundreds of thousands of my follow-Christians I have smoked, and, with them, I am under the condemnation of living in habitual sin, if certain accusers are to be believed. As I would not knowingly live even in the smallest violation of the law of God, and sin in the transgression of the law, I will not own to sin when I am not conscious of it."

"There is growing up in society a Pharisaic system which adds to the commands of God the precepts of men; to that system I will not yield for an hour. The preservation of my liberty may bring upon me the upbraidings of many good men, and the sneers of the self-righteous; but I shall endure both with serenity so long as I feel clear in my conscience before God. The expression 'smoking to the glory of God' standing alone has an ill sound, and I do not justify it; but in the sense in which I employed it I still stand to it. No Christian should do anything in which he cannot glorify God; and this may be done, according to Scripture, in eating and drinking and the common actions of life."

"When I have found intense pain relieved, a weary brain soothed, and calm, refreshing sleep obtained by a cigar, I have felt grateful to God, and have blessed His name; this is what I meant, and by no means did I use sacred words triflingly. If through smoking I had wasted an hour of my time—if I had stinted my gifts to the poor—if I had rendered my mind less vigorous—I trust I should see my fault and turn from it; but he who charges me with these things shall have no answer but my forgiveness."

Source

 

[HAMel]

Some are most definitely in a society of a Pharisaic system adding to the commands of God the precepts of men. Right On Target. How true, how true.

 

[blessedwife318]

Evan, since you are in Colorado, have you notices this Issue (drinking and smoking) extending to prohibiting or allowing marijuana?

I used to live in CO before moving to AZ and I found it ironic that the same group that worked so hard to de facto outlaw smoking everywhere but your own home in CO, also worked so hard to make smoking marijuana legal. Its a strange state in many many ways. Now I have always been one that if someone wants to give themselves lung cancer they could do so,(I actually was quite opposed to the smoking ban in public in CO, since I felt it was a slippery slope to banning other things but that's another topic).

On the other hand I've also been one that if you join an organization with rules about XYZ you shouldn't complain about not being able to do XYZ after the fact. For example when I was in Bible college there was a rule that we could only watch G rated movies. So for the time I was there I only watched G rated movies, I knew the rule before I went there, and still made the choice to go there meaning I made the choice to be under that rule. The same goes with churches with covenants, if you join you are choice to put your self under that authority. I think the issue here is ecclesiology and how one views authority that we put ourself under.

 

[JonC]

I used to live in CO before moving to AZ and I found it ironic that the same group that worked so hard to de facto outlaw smoking everywhere but your own home in CO, also worked so hard to make smoking marijuana legal. Its a strange state in many many ways. Now I have always been one that if someone wants to give themselves lung cancer they could do so,(I actually was quite opposed to the smoking ban in public in CO, since I felt it was a slippery slope to banning other things but that's another topic).

On the other hand I've also been one that if you join an organization with rules about XYZ you shouldn't complain about not being able to do XYZ after the fact. For example when I was in Bible college there was a rule that we could only watch G rated movies. So for the time I was there I only watched G rated movies, I knew the rule before I went there, and still made the choice to go there meaning I made the choice to be under that rule. The same goes with churches with covenants, if you join you are choice to put your self under that authority. I think the issue here is ecclesiology and how one views authority that we put ourself under.

Decades ago I smoked. I suppose I had gotten used to walking through those smoke clouds others produced because only as smoking is growing less and less a public activity have I come to recognize it's effect on others. It is odd because I remember when an ash tray was central on all restaurant tables, and now I don't think I could eat in a diner that allowed smoking.

Your comment with church covenants (and bylaws...I'd add) is spot on. My last pastor explained to me that interpreted the qualification for a deacon to be against polygamy but our bylaws interpreted it as divorce. He respected the qualifications set forth in the bylaws, although he disagreed with the reasoning. There are few things more damaging to a church...or a marriage for that matter...than someone who joins in that relationship with the intent on changing it to their preferences. I can't help but see a level of dishonestly in that.