Snuggling With Satan?

[JonC]

Did he die in my stead, for my personal sins is the question

I would say "no". Christ's death was not that superficial. Our personal sins are just "fruits" that the law points out so that we recognize a deeper problem. We fall short of God's glory.

And that is the "problem" Christ addresses. Christ reconciles us to God, makes us into His image, gives us life. In Him we are predestined to be glorified.

If Christ just died for our personal sins then we have no hope as we will still fall short of God's glory, we will still be wicked.

 

[MrW]

If you stand before God at judgment not having "died to sin", not being a "new creation in Christ", not "in the image of Christ", not having "done away with your old self"....but instead stand at judgment as the "old man"...then yes, God's wrath will be on you and you will experience the second death.

But if you have been made a new creation in Christ, have "died to sin", have "turned from wickedness", have "turned to God" then God will forgive your sins.

Don't take my word for it. Read Ezekiel 18. There are plenty of other passages to read, but that should address your concern about wrath.

Just believe that God will do what He said He will do and don't worry about what the world says.

By your own words, Christ saves me from God’s wrath. It is clear this passage refers to God’s wrath against Christ-rejecting sinners.

Romans 5:9 (KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

 

[MrW]

I would say "no". Christ's death was not that superficial. Our personal sins are just "fruits" that the law points out so that we recognize a deeper problem. We fall short of God's glory.

And that is the "problem" Christ addresses. Christ reconciles us to God, makes us into His image, gives us life. In Him we are predestined to be glorified.

If Christ just died for our personal sins then we have no hope as we will still fall short of God's glory, we will still be wicked.

Not “just” for personal sins, but all we needed reconciliation for, absolutely including personal sins.

Isaiah 53:5 (KJV)
But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24 (KJV)
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

 

[JonC]

By your own words, Christ saves me from God’s wrath. It is clear this passage refers to God’s wrath against Christ-rejecting sinners.

Romans 5:9 (KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Yes, we are saved ftom that wrath. Yes, that wrath is against those who reject Christ.

I never argued against that.

I said that Jesus did not experience God's wrath. That is why no passages state He did.

 

[JonC]

Not “just” for personal sins, but all we needed reconciliation for, absolutely including personal sins.

Isaiah 53:5 (KJV)
But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24 (KJV)
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

We all need reconciliation as evidenced by those sins.Yes, He was wounded for our transgressions. He bore our sins. By His stripes we are healed.

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him, because of His suffering death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the originator of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father.

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

In all things He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.


I was merely saying that the idea Jesus suffered God's wrath is foreign to Scripture. It grew from Calvin's philosophy (which proved a failure).

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, we are saved ftom that wrath. Yes, that wrath is against those who reject Christ.

I never argued against that.

I said that Jesus did not experience God's wrath. That is why no passages state He did.

When Jesus was applying the Psalm to Himself as being forsaken of God, was that Him quoting that as a messianic psalm, as what he was actually experiencing on that Cross?
The phrase "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" is the opening line of Psalm 22 in the Bible. It is famously spoken by Jesus on the cross and is a cry of anguish that expresses deep suffering and a feeling of abandonment. The psalm goes on to detail suffering, persecution, and a plea for deliverance, but it ends with praise for God and assurance of His power.

• Psalm 22:
  The entire psalm is a lament that includes the famous question. It describes the psalmist's suffering, surrounded by enemies who mock him, and concludes with a powerful statement of trust and hope in God's deliverance.
  
  
• • Jesus's cry on the cross:
    Jesus quoted the first verse of this psalm as he was dying, a moment recognized as the fulfillment of the prophecy within the psalm. It is understood as expressing the agony of bearing the sins of the world.
    
  • Interpretation:
    While the words express a feeling of abandonment, they are understood within the context of the psalm, which moves from suffering to ultimate praise and trust in God's power to save
  • Which as I understand this event, would be that Jesus really experienced being forsaken by the Father when became the sin bearer, but once salvation had been fully accomplished, he committed Himself to the Father and now back in fellowship with Him

 

[JesusFan]

If you stand before God at judgment not having "died to sin", not being a "new creation in Christ", not "in the image of Christ", not having "done away with your old self"....but instead stand at judgment as the "old man"...then yes, God's wrath will be on you and you will experience the second death.

But if you have been made a new creation in Christ, have "died to sin", have "turned from wickedness", have "turned to God" then God will forgive your sins.

Don't take my word for it. Read Ezekiel 18. There are plenty of other passages to read, but that should address your concern about wrath.

Just believe that God will do what He said He will do and don't worry about what the world says.

We can become new creatures in Christ though because and due to Jesus death providing satisfaction to God the Father for our sins

 

[JesusFan]

We all need reconciliation as evidenced by those sins.Yes, He was wounded for our transgressions. He bore our sins. By His stripes we are healed.

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him, because of His suffering death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the originator of their salvation through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father.

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

In all things He had to be made like His brothers so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.


I was merely saying that the idea Jesus suffered God's wrath is foreign to Scripture. It grew from Calvin's philosophy (which proved a failure).

Jesus experienced that wrath when He took upon Himself that Cup of wrath, as he dreaded most of all feeling isolated and forsaken at that moment by the Father when he became our sin bearer

 

[JonC]

When Jesus was applying the Psalm to Himself as being forsaken of God, was that Him quoting that as a messianic psalm, as what he was actually experiencing on that Cross?

The Psalm foreshadows the event. The psalm was a prophesy.

In the psalm the Servant cries out, asking why God has forsaken Him.

The Servant trusts in God to deliver Him and recounts God's faithfulness to His forefathers when forsaken to suffer trusted in God and God proved faithful.

 

[JonC]

We can become new creatures in Christ though because and due to Jesus death providing satisfaction to God the Father for our sins

No....not according to Scripture.

We are now declared righteous based on Christ as a surety. We can look to Christ and see how we will be. We will be glorified. We will be made into His image.

But the reason Scripture gives for this is the establishment of a new covenant. Christ defeated the power of the one who holds the power of death. He fulfilled the old covenant.

Because of the work of Christ every man will be raised, some to life and others to everlasting condemnation.

We are made new creations in Christ because of the New Covenant in His blood.

 

[JonC]

Jesus experienced that wrath when He took upon Himself that Cup of wrath, as he dreaded most of all feeling isolated and forsaken at that moment by the Father when he became our sin bearer

I understand your opinion. Several hold the same opinion.

However, when faced with choosing between man's opinions about what the Bible teaches and God's own words, I have to choose God's words.

That said, I wish you the best with your choice.

 

[JesusFan]

I understand your opinion. Several hold the same opinion.

However, when faced with choosing between man's opinions about what the Bible teaches and God's own words, I have to choose God's words.

That said, I wish you the best with your choice.

Jesus bore in his body and Himself our sins, and so when the Fatherr transacted with Him, what did His shed blood for for those sins that were placed upon Himself then?

 

[JonC]

Jesus bore in his body and Himself our sins, and so when the Fatherr transacted with Him, what did His shed blood for for those sins that were placed upon Himself then?

You are making too many assumptions here.

We bear our sins in our flesh. And our fkesh dies because of sin. But we are made alive because of righteousness.

Read Romans 8.

 

[JesusFan]

You are making too many assumptions here.

We bear our sins in our flesh. And our fkesh dies because of sin. But we are made alive because of righteousness.

Read Romans 8.

We are able to get born again due to the fact that the Father found someone willing and able to meet our sin debt obligation to Him that we owed as sinners

 

[JonC]

We are able to get born again due to the fact that the Father found someone willing and able to meet our sin debt obligation to Him that we owed as sinners

Why would past actions prevent one from being born again?

 

[JesusFan]

Why would past actions prevent one from being born again?

Goid cannot forgive us apart from a sin offering

 

[JonC]

Goid cannot forgive us apart from a sin offering

Jesus is this sacrifice.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus is this sacrifice.

was he sacrificed for our sins in our stead?

 

[JonC]

was he sacrificed for our sins in our stead?

If by "in our stead" you mean as a representative (like Adam stood in our stead when he sinned) then yes. If you mean instead of us then no.

 

[JesusFan]

If by "in our stead" you mean as a representative (like Adam stood in our stead when he sinned) then yes. If you mean instead of us then no.

was he treated by the Father in same fashion all of the lost shall be?