Read Psalm 22.
If you see that the Servant suffered the eternal punishment of Hell then you have your answer.
If you do not see that then you have your answer.
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Snuggling With Satan?
- Thread starter Zaatar71
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If you see that the Servant suffered the eternal punishment of Hell then you have your answer.
If you do not see that then you have your answer.
Yes. Read Psalm 22.
@JesusFan
My point is that what Christ accomplished on the cross, that covenant in His blood, is not as superficial as Calvinistic Atonement thinks.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The blood Christ shed was not to account for the bad fruit that bad trees produce but to recreate the bad trees into good trees.
Our sins are not forgiven because God punished Jesus instead of us for those sins. They are forgiven because God reconciled mankind to Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ through His own blood.
The cross addresses our state as falling short of God's glory, not the sins that that state produces.
My point is that what Christ accomplished on the cross, that covenant in His blood, is not as superficial as Calvinistic Atonement thinks.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The blood Christ shed was not to account for the bad fruit that bad trees produce but to recreate the bad trees into good trees.
Our sins are not forgiven because God punished Jesus instead of us for those sins. They are forgiven because God reconciled mankind to Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ through His own blood.
The cross addresses our state as falling short of God's glory, not the sins that that state produces.
The Holy Spirit can now do his work to save out lost sinners to lord Jesus due to His shed blood as appeasement foe the due wrath and judgment of God towards us while we were yet sinners
That is the difference between our views of the cross.
I believe that the cross is the completed work of redemption, that we (not just the "fruits" of who we are or were) are atoned for by the blood of Christ.
I do not believe that the cross was only a step in redeeming man - addressing the "fruits" of the flesh (sins) so that the actual problem of man (we fall short of God's glory) can then be addressed.
Instead I view Jesus as completely finishing this work on the Cross.
Calvinists see Jesus death as paying in full tot he Father what is due to Him as sinners, and when he stated it is accomplished/finished, we accept that in full
Yes. That us what I said. Calvinists see Jesus' death as paying in full to the Father what is due Him from sinners, and this is accomplished, in full.
But that is not the Atonement in full. That is just accounting for "bad fruits" (sins) under a system of accounting.
Like you said, afterwards the Spirit would have to do His part by addressing the real problem of man (the "bad fruits" have been taken care of on the cross, now the hard part is accomplished- the "bad tree").
It is too superficial.
Instead I believe IT WAS ALL accomplished on the Cross by the blood of Christ. Why? Because the real problem (the "bad tree") was addressed.
@Jesus Saves! Slow down and consider what I have said before firing off a reply.
But He did. That’s how He delivered me from God’s wrath. He took the wrath upon Himself that I deserved.
I know that is your understanding.
But that is just one understanding some Christians have about what the Bible teaches.
I personally believe God's Word teaches God's words.
I do not lean on my own understanding, so with something this important I certainly would not lean on somebody else's.
You saying Jesus experienced God's wrath is fine as a statement of your faith. But it is not in God's Word so I cannot see why you can lean on that idea much less expect others to believe it.
Romans 5:9 (KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ephesians 2:3 (KJV)
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 5:6 (KJV)
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:6 (KJV)
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV)
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Romans 5:9 again—I am saved from God’s wrath because the Lord Jesus Christ endured in my place.
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Exactly. Why do so many seem to think those passages (and more) are so insufficient?
Why do they feel a need to disregard Scripture for what the think Scripture "really" teaches if only God were o ly competent enough with His words?
They exchange the truth of God's words for the lie that Jesus experienced God's wrath, and for what? They end up with a cheap substitute for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
FROM GOT QUESTIONS;
In the simplest possible terms, the Biblical doctrine of penal substitution holds that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross takes the place of the punishment we ought to suffer for our sins. As a result, God’s justice is satisfied, and those who accept Christ can be forgiven and reconciled to God.
In the simplest possible terms, the Biblical doctrine of penal substitution holds that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross takes the place of the punishment we ought to suffer for our sins. As a result, God’s justice is satisfied, and those who accept Christ can be forgiven and reconciled to God.
Jesus knew in the Garden that when he took upon Himself and drank deeply that cup of wrath that He would suffer being forsaken upon that Cross, and experience while transacting out our salvation what all lost sinners will, wrath, judgment, and being forsaken by God
This is heresy.
No passage states that Jesus drank a cup of God's wrath. In fact, the only "cup" mentioned that Jesus would drink if was the one that James and John would also share.
If you believe that cup was God's wrath then you need to explain why James and John also had to experience God's wrath.
The only judgment of God Scripture tells us Jesus experienced is in God glorifying Him.
Most importantly, all you are doing is talking about God not holding us responsible for our actions. This is not reconciling man.
Man not held responsible for his actions would still fall short of God's glory, would still have a mind set on the flesh.
You already addressed this when you explained that all of this is addressed by God after the cross.
But if that is true then not only was God not reconciling man to Himself on the cross but ultimately the blood of Christ shed was just an unnecessary step.
Your theology is a mess.