So much for its Trumps fault or bears any responsibility

[JonC]

So are you agreeing that you don't agree????

No. We are disagreeing over what we disagree over.

 

[Salty]

No. We are disagreeing over what we disagree over.

Uh - let me go get an aspirin.....

 

[JonC]

Uh - let me go get an aspirin.....

Model glue works better. I've used it for years and am just fine.

 

[JonC]

The bottom line is we all agree on what the Democrats said (the words) and what Trump said (his words).

What do we do with this?

Well, die hard Trumpers would condemn the Democrats for encouraging the riots last summer but insist Trump is innocent because his words did not actually call for a riot.

Die hard Democrats will condemn Trump for incitement but insist the Democrat leaders are innocent because their words did not actually call for riots last summer.

There are only two honest positions. Either neither party was responsible or both were. Anything else is hypocrisy.

I believe both parties were responsible, not because of the words spoken but because they were in leadership positions, and influenced the situation for the negative but could have influenced the situation for the positive were they acting for the good of the nation rather than their own interests or the interest of their party.

 

[Reformed1689]

I think the real concern is when did Trump realizes that the rally became illegal - ie storming the capitol bldg? Should he have twixed? sooner?, should he have went on TV to inform those who stormed to stop?

Again, I don't think it is right, or fair, to call the rally and the riot the same event or link them together as the same event.

 

[Reformed1689]

I think you are mistaking here. Trump was actively campaigning for a second term (he was not speaking as President but as a candidate for the 2021 Presidency).

He should have taken off the campaign hat and put on the President hat when the election was over.

Except at that point the election was not truly 100% over. After the certification he did for the most part.

 

[JonC]

Except at that point the election was not truly 100% over. After the certification he did for the most part.

The issues of the election was not 100% over, but the election was over. The certification was ceremonial (it was affirming the election that had already taken place).

What the GOP needs to do is decide how to reform election laws. They whined that the Federal Government had a responsibility to make sure there is no fraud with the State elections. Then they whine when the Federal Government suggests it may federalize the election process. Just whinners all around, I guess.

But I do agree that there was fraud with the election. I am not sure that I am comfortable saying that the Democrat fraud (the anti-Trump fraud) was any worse than Trump's fraud in the election...but it certainly was no better.

That said, January 6 was too late to have a campaign rally at the Capitol. Trump should have put his big boy pants on and acted as President rather than a defeated candidate gasping for that last bit of air. Either way the election was over and he was leaving office. But he could have left as a President who lost an election rather than a defeated candidate.

 

[Reformed1689]

The certification was ceremonial (it was affirming the election that had already taken place).

Except precedent shows this is not the case.

I am not sure that I am comfortable saying that the Democrat fraud (the anti-Trump fraud) was any worse than Trump's fraud in the election

Just curious, in your view, what was Trump's fraud in the election? What are you referring to?

That said, January 6 was too late to have a campaign rally at the Capitol. Trump should have put his big boy pants on and acted as President rather than a defeated candidate gasping for that last bit of air. Either way the election was over and he was leaving office. But he could have left as a President who lost an election rather than a defeated candidate.

And the facts just don't support this position based on precedent.

 

[JonC]

Just curious, in your view, what was Trump's fraud in the election? What are you referring to?

I believe that the most fraudulent thing a candidate can to is to lie to a person in order to get their vote. Both parties did this (I listed several of Trump's earlier, but not Biden's because I think we all presume Biden lied to obtain votes).

Don't, for example, tell me that then candidate Biden refuses to condemn the rioters in Philadelphia when the day prior Biden issued a statement condemning the rioters in Philadelphia. Don't try to scare me out of my vote by telling me that Biden plans "an immediate shutdown to show the spread of the virus" when Biden did not plan a shutdown. Don't pretend to have found faith, to be a champion of the Church, when you do not go to church and your religious mentor is calling on angels from Africa and South America to bring victory to Trump. Don't try to scare me into voting by claiming Biden is going to quadruple taxes when his tax plan (while awful) does no such thing.

We can call this "politics", and I agree it is "politics". BUT being "politics" does not make it less a candidate trying to rob people of their votes.

 

[Reformed1689]

I believe that the most fraudulent thing a candidate can to is to lie to a person in order to get their vote. Both parties did this (I listed several of Trump's earlier, but not Biden's because I think we all presume Biden lied to obtain votes).

Ok so we are talking about two very different forms of fraud. Though I agree with you about truthfulness in politics.

 

[Benjamin]

Don't, for example, tell me that then candidate Biden refuses to condemn the rioters in Philadelphia when the day prior Biden issued a statement condemning the rioters in Philadelphia.

You need to open your eyes to the truth of what is going on this in country... There is no true comparison to be made between the two sides which justifies your constant attempts to do so.

 

[JonC]

Ok so we are talking about two very different forms of fraud. Though I agree with you about truthfulness in politics.

Yes, we are. The DNC has a history of voter fraud. Some of it is technically legal in areas, but shouldn't be (like ballot harvesting).

My gripe is truthfulness, and that is something neither side really has. I can't get past that to concern myself with voter fraud. It's all corrupt, and to be fair it has always been this way (it is suspected that Edgar Allen Poe was a victim of cooping, which is voter fraud).

 

[JonC]

You need to open your eyes to the truth of what is going on this in country... There is no true comparison to be made between the two sides which justifies your constant attempts to do so.

No, I know what is going on this country. You are pointing to one half of the problem. You need to open your eyes to the full picture. The GOP is no less worldly than the DNC. Neither party recognizes Christ. Neither party gives God credit for their "accomplishments". Neither party has anything to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Both parties, are by biblical definition, anti-Christ. Yet Christians who support the DNC only see the the GOP as evil. Christians who support the GOP only see the DNC as evil. There is none blind who refuse to see.

@Iconoclast mentioned a third Christian party. That would be interesting. But let's not pretend that that's the GOP.

 

[percho]

The riot was so there would be no debate concerning the electors. They had just contested AZ electors when they adjourned.


It was planed and not by Trump.

Watch the video.

 

[just-want-peace]

Long ago I was in Norway, just north of the artic circle. Several NCO's got beer and stayed at the cabin we were in at the time. They drank the beer (we had a two beer limit, but they drank more). One of my soldiers went to town and drank more than two beers and got caught (another came back wearing a German uniform....another story). His complaint when he was disciplined for drinking more than two beers was "the squad leaders did the same thing".

My response was to hold him responsible for his actions. Why? Because the actions of other people do not remove responsibility for his own actions. Those squad leaders did the same thing, but they did not get caught because of their situation. My solder got caught because of his situation.

The actions of other people do not remove responsibility for Trump. I agree that his words were no worse than theirs (they were not as bad). But their words were not used to encourage people to riot (not just those who had planned the thing, but others who were drawn in).

I liked Trump as President. I think that he did more for our nation than any other President in recent history. But I am not going to pretend that he has no responsibility for what happened on January 6. I can't do that because it is not true.

I am not saying he caused the riot. But he is responsible for his words and for the environment in which he chose to speak those words.

This is one major problem with our nation today. We have some wanting to censure free speech....but on the other end we have others who believe having the right to do something removes responsibility for doing it.

Are you saying that IF Trump had not spoken as he did, the capitol fiasco would never have happened? Even though it has now come to light that it was planned far ahead? If Trump had been sipping coffee at Starbucks then this brouhaha would never materialized??
C'mon JonC, you've surely got more common sense that this!!

 

[JonC]

Are you saying that IF Trump had not spoken as he did, the capitol fiasco would never have happened? Even though it has now come to light that it was planned far ahead? If Trump had been sipping coffee at Starbucks then this brouhaha would never materialized??
C'mon JonC, you've surely got more common sense that this!!

No. But obviously that would have been the case for many who were caught up in the riot. And come to think of it, the people would not have been there, so yes....good point. Had Trump not had the rally then the riot would not have occurred.

But what I an saying is that we are responsible for our words. Scripture teaches this.