well put.....
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"...so that they are without excuse..."
- Thread starter Eagle
- Start date
well put.....
Must be a bummer....thinking of yourself as a robot. :smilewinkgrin:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I don't know about it being a "bummer" to see God is in control of salvation...but it is certainly humbling.
On the contrary, you must feel very proud of yourself knowing that you are the master of your own destiny...that it is all up to you...or at least mostly up to you.
I would much rather suffer the ignorant chants of "robot" than to think myself the master of my own destiny.
peace to you
raying:
I don't know about it being a "bummer" to see God is in control of salvation...but it is certainly humbling.
On the contrary, you must feel very proud of yourself knowing that you are the master of your own destiny...that it is all up to you...or at least mostly up to you.
I would much rather suffer the ignorant chants of "robot" than to think myself the master of my own destiny.
peace to you
You"re right, I guess I wouldn’t understand about the “humbling” feelings of being and pronouncing myself to others as… “specially pre-selected”… as per the Predestinarian’s dogmatic claims. Although, I do understand the fact that I and all men have a choice as per our gracious and loving God’s true nature and promises made in the Son to all men before the foundation of the world. I’ll not suffer and fret about having to willingly make that choice to accept my Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, …like some do. I rather thank Him for His truly gracious act that provided a way for all men to receive the leading of the Spirit and become willingly in bondage to Him, in which, I am free indeed.
(Romans 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Romans 8:15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Yep, I’m actually quite comfortable admitting there is free will as per God’s Devine design. Nope, I won’t be looking for “excuses” for not making that decision of my own free will, while thanking Him for what He's done for us, as I trust in His perfect design and “true” ways of judgment:
(Deuteronomy 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
...and peace to you Brotha
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I know of no person of "reformed thinking" that pronounces himself in the manner you say. On the contrary, the focus is always upon the gracious work of God in the lives of helpless sinners.
"All men have a choice"? "The promise of salvation of made to all men before the foundation of the world?" Really?
Is the gospel of Jesus Christ necessary for salvation? If it is (and it most certainly is per I Cor. 1:20..or so), then you must believe that every person living on the planet heard the gospel of Jesus Christ before they died? Is that what you believe?
Even if you say the gospel of Christ only came after the resurrection of Jesus, surely you realize there is no evidence the gospel reached the entire world before a single person died? Do you believe the gospel reached the entire world before a single person died after the resurrection?
Will you acknowledge that people lived their lives without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ? Will you acknowledge that people live their lives even to this day without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?
If people died before hearing the gospel, how can your statement be true that "all men have a choice?". Is it that they "respond to the light they have?" Oh, then there must be other ways to heaven rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is that what you believe?
No, then you must acknowledge that everyone did not have a chance to respond to the gospel. Do you believe that to be unfair? Surely you must believe God is unfair?
What was so special about you and/or me, that we would be born in a country where we were able to hear the gospel? Nothing, of course. It was part of God's sovereign purpose.
Does that give me and/or you occasion to boast? Of course not. We can only proclaim the mercy of God.
Who frets about making a that choice? Reformed Christians readily acknowledge the need to come to Christ in faith. We just realize it was nothing within ourselves, but the entire process of salvation is a gift of God from beginning to end. We respond to His drawing with faith, but even that faith is a gift of God.
When you are led by someone, it is a passive activity.
Well, you go right ahead and be comfortable. I'll follow what scripture says.
Jesus told us that everyone who sins is a slave to sin. The slave does the will of the master. No free will...just human will enslaved to sin...until the Son sets you free (passive act BTW).
Scripture says that it doesn't depend on the man who wills, or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Jesus said "My sheep know My voice, and I call them by name". He also said He would loose none that He came for.
Scripture says no one can say "Jesus is Lord, except by the Spirit". Surely Paul isn't saying people can't mouth the words "Jesus is Lord" is he? Even Jesus said there would be some on the day of judgement that said "Lord, Lord", but be cast out. No, Paul is saying salvation is impossible except by the Spirit.
Jesus told the pharisees that they didn't believe Him because they were not of His sheep. Notice He didn't say they weren't His sheep because they didn't believe...oh no....He said they didn't believe because they weren't His sheep.
peace to you
raying:
Regardless if faith is a gift or not (it's not, btw), who must have faith? How does one commit a "work" in either scenario by excercising faith in Christ? Whether if it's given or not, it is not considered a work in either instance.
Analogy- I begin to slide down a cliff that has a 1,000 foot fall, then on my way down I happen to look over and see a strong branch to grab onto so with all I have I lung myself to trust in that branch as my only hope. When I grab it I am not letting go, its my savior.
The analogy may be errant, but it gives the idea of what it means to see ourselves falling from sin, which outside of the Holy Spirit we never notice we are in trouble until we hit the bottom when its to late. We dont know or understand the things of the Spirit unless revealed. -Saving faith
NOW---------------------------------------
Analogy- Now pretend Im at the bottom of that huge drop 1000 foot cliff looking up and I see a branch and grab it trying to make myself feel like I am falling.
In this analogy it shows that I am not in danger and am not in the heart of understanding what it really feels like to fall from the cliff, therefore I cannot really put my trust into the branch I am reaching for. To be honest after a little while from hanging on the branch trying to convince myself I need to be saved from death I will probably realize how stupid it is and stop trusting because I never understood the true danger. The same is with false faith/belief. Unless one is opened up to see Jesus, sin, and so forth he will be at the bottom of the cliff wandering around comfortably in himself blindly.
-false faith
I believe there are many people out there that have created an experience in their lives in which they felt something and think they have faith, but they never experienced the fall. This also may have been enforced by a false conviction as well.
My replies to them would be pray honestly/open up to God and search the scriptures to test yourself to make sure you arent under your own deception.
Now I think the one who quickens someone to understand sin, righteousness, and judgment is the Holy Spirit. And I believe the reaction in the sinners heart is "wretched and blind man I am, what shall I say or do, Lord have mercy on my filthy soul"...
By the way WEBDOG this isnt directed towards you,
, I just thought Id give my 2-cents.
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christianyouth
New Member
Whether or not WE think that the free will view of faith works is irrelevant. The real question was this : Did the NT writers?
And a further point : In the OT the Jews were constantly told to stop sinning and then given the promise that God would restore them if they did. That is a theme that runs throughout the OT and Judaic literature around the time of Christ. Yet the interesting thing, is that they never viewed their ceasing from sin and returning to God in terms of a work, but rather an extension of God's grace!
Now, granted the above(and we could discuss that if you like), do you think that the NT authors have changed that old position and now see repenting and turning to God as a 'work'?
Look forward to discussing.
(BTW, this is addressed to anyone)
And a further point : In the OT the Jews were constantly told to stop sinning and then given the promise that God would restore them if they did. That is a theme that runs throughout the OT and Judaic literature around the time of Christ. Yet the interesting thing, is that they never viewed their ceasing from sin and returning to God in terms of a work, but rather an extension of God's grace!
Now, granted the above(and we could discuss that if you like), do you think that the NT authors have changed that old position and now see repenting and turning to God as a 'work'?
Look forward to discussing.
(BTW, this is addressed to anyone)
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christianyouth
New Member
Just to add : If we a strong conditionalness toward God's promises in the OT, and yet a strong view of grace, why do we think that God placing conditions upon his promise makes it anti-grace?
Hey Canadyjd, I have been unable to respond for a few days, but here goes, you said:
All men do have this choice for it is clearly seen, even His eternal power and Godhead. All men from all time had the choice to believe in the Messiah to come whom was clearly prophesied in everything the Jews had to do and read, or in the Messiah that has now come -- the one and same Jesus.
So no matter which country, or which time, all men have heard, or could hear, of the only way to heaven (Jesus) if they would act on the clearly seen evidence. The logic & truth of Romans 1 is pretty ironclad -- both what it is saying as well as the implications on Total Depravity, and the rest of TULIP.
Eagle
These very issues are at the crux of what I have been trying to say. Romans 1 sets forth that all men have been given sufficient light ("they are without excuse [when they get to heaven]"), and will be able to hear the gospel as God sends a missionary (or anyone) to tell them of Jesus, if & when they act on this light from "faith to faith."
All men do have this choice for it is clearly seen, even His eternal power and Godhead. All men from all time had the choice to believe in the Messiah to come whom was clearly prophesied in everything the Jews had to do and read, or in the Messiah that has now come -- the one and same Jesus.
So no matter which country, or which time, all men have heard, or could hear, of the only way to heaven (Jesus) if they would act on the clearly seen evidence. The logic & truth of Romans 1 is pretty ironclad -- both what it is saying as well as the implications on Total Depravity, and the rest of TULIP.
Eagle
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
There is no evidence in scripture that general revelation proved "sufficient light" for salvation for anyone, or that those who hear and respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ must first exercise some sort of faith in God due to the general revelation.
The method for bringing people to salvation is found in I Cor. 1:20 (or so) which says men could not come to know God in their own wisdom. God was well please to bring those who would be saved to salvation through the foolishness of the cross of Jesus Christ. (my paraphrase)
It seems this may be a conversation about ability. Would God give us a command to do something for salvation without giving us the ability to do it?
Is that what you are talking about?
And all men rejected general revelation and all men stood condemned by God.
That is simply not true. All men have not heard the specific revelation of who Jesus is and what He has done. If they had, there would be no need for the great commission, and no need for missionaries.
I agree. It appears we have a difference of opinion as to application, however.
peace to you
raying:Tom Butler
New Member
There's a passage of scripture in Romans 10 that most of us are quite familiar with.
We all know v.9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, etc....."
We all know v 13 "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord, etc....."
But, for this discussion, I point to v. 13
"How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on him of whom they have not heard.? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Which begs this question: how can all people have heard the gospel when Paul says they have not?
And this question: If all have heard the gospel, what was the point of Paul's missionary journeys?
And this question: If all have heard the gospel, what is the point of sending missionaries anywhere today?
We all know v.9 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, etc....."
We all know v 13 "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord, etc....."
But, for this discussion, I point to v. 13
"How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe on him of whom they have not heard.? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Which begs this question: how can all people have heard the gospel when Paul says they have not?
And this question: If all have heard the gospel, what was the point of Paul's missionary journeys?
And this question: If all have heard the gospel, what is the point of sending missionaries anywhere today?
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.There is no evidence in scripture that general revelation proved "sufficient light" for salvation for anyone, or that those who hear and respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ must first exercise some sort of faith in God due to the general revelation.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I believe these passages are referring to those who are saved (or profess to be saved) and already working for the master.
peace to you
raying:I believe these passages are referring to those who are saved (or profess to be saved) and already working for the master.
peace to you
Really?
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
In contrast:
Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Jesus was not speaking of "saved people" in Matt. 13:12. He was speaking of people who refused to listen to Him. They were given light, but would not see. Therefore, what they did have would be taken away. Their fate would be sealed due to their own stubbornness.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Well, if you backed up one verse, you'll see more of a context was that He was speaking to both.
Matt.13:11 "And He answered and said to them,(His disciples) 'To you it has been granted to know the mysteries fo the kingdom of heaven, but the them it has not been granted...'"
Jesus will go on to explain the parable of the sower to them (which He had just spoken). There were 3 groups of seeds which produced no fruit, and one group of seeds that produced fruit.
Jesus then says to those that have more will be given. That is, to those that are producing fruit (i.e. believers) more will be given. But to those that do not produce fruit (i.e. unbelievers), even what they have will be taken from them.
BTW, Jesus doesn't say they "had light". He says He deliberately spoke to them in parables so they wouldn't be able to understand. Why? Because it had not been granted to them by God to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.
peace to you
raying:Tom Butler
New Member
So, there are mysteries of the kingdom God has withheld from some.
In an earlier post, I quoted Paul in Romans 10:13 "how can they believe on him of whom they have not heard."
Then there's Jesus in Matthew 11 who thanks the Father for withholding certain truths from "the wise" but revealing them to "babes."
Then, in 11:27, Jesus asserts that nobody knows the father except the Son, and those to whom the Son reveals the Father.
How about John 12:40, where John explains why God told Isaiah that his preaching would not produce converts. "Because he has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts....'
It appears that not only have some people not been given the light, but in fact God has also actually denied the light to them. Or has denied them the ability to receive the light.
"but in fact God has also actually denied the light to them. Or has denied them the ability to receive the light." John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Opportunity given...AND ......Opportunity taken away.... John 12:37, But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him.v40 He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they might not perceive with their eyes, and understand with their mind and turn, and I would heal them." Talents"opportunity" given,and taken away.
Robert Snow
New Member
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.