"...so that they are without excuse..."

[jofuss]

Act 17:30

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[Tom Butler]

"but in fact God has also actually denied the light to them. Or has denied them the ability to receive the light." John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Opportunity given...AND ......Opportunity taken away.... John 12:37, But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him.v40 He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they might not perceive with their eyes, and understand with their mind and turn, and I would heal them." Talents"opportunity" given,and taken away.

You skipped v. 39 "...Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again..." V. 40 explains why they couldn't.

Romans 10:13 still must be dealt with "how can they believe on him of whom they have not heard." These of whom Paul spoke were not those to whom the light had come, then been withdrawn because of unbelief. These were those who had never heard or rejected Christ in the first place, because they simply didn't know about him.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"You skipped v. 39" I did indeed! Didn't want to put too much on the plate to eat.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[canadyjd]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The "whosoever" of John 3:15-16 was qualified by John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

"wishes" refers to a deliberate act of the will, in this case, the will of God Holy Spirit that causes men to be "born again", according to His will, so they will be the "whosoever" that believeth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And how do you reconcile this verse with the other verses in which God clearly selects and calls those He chooses for salvation? Even in 2 Pet. 1:9 "the Lord knows how to resuce the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;"

I would hold that 2 Pet 3:9 is referring to those "godly" that God will rescue (not allowing any to perish). That appears to be the context of his statement.

If you believe 3:9 refers to all men, then you have a contradiction with 1:9 which says "and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;"

God doesn't appear to have any qualms about keeping these men under punishment for the day of judgment.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

When you highlight a few words, as you have done, you get a skewed understanding of the passage; "all ye" doesn't mean "all men".

Jesus had just said that it pleased God to reveal Himself to "babes" but hid Himself from those who are "wise and intellegent". Jesus says all things have been given to Him by the Father.

Jesus says (v.27) "...no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

To "know" God is to have salvation. Notice that Jesus says He chooses whom He will reveal the Father to.

It is then that He says, (v.28) "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy laden..."

So, the offer to "come" is not to "all men", but to "all who are weary and heavy laden". Who, then, are the ones who are "weary and heavy laden"?

It is the ones that Jesus has "willed" to reveal the Father, and the judgment that He spoke of in v. 21-24. Those who recieve that revelation respond with weariness and heaviness of heart...I believe that refers to conviction of sin and repentance toward God.

This is why Jesus encourages these people to learn from Him, take on His yoke and find rest for their souls. Their souls are under conviction of sin and the terrifying expectation of the coming judgment and hell.

Also notice that what Jesus offers is not freedom, but a yoke. A yoke means enslavement.

Enslavement to Christ is the most joyous opportunity anyone can imagine, for His yoke is easy and His load is light.

So you see, the verses you quoted actually demonstrate the opposite of what you thought they proved.

peace to youraying:

 

[Tom Butler]

"You skipped v. 39" I did indeed! Didn't want to put too much on the plate to eat.:smilewinkgrin:

Actually that may be the toughest verse in that passage. You were probably right to not too much on the plate.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Howdy Tom,Lets take a look...... John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. As I see this, its because they refused the light that they got "the talent",so judgment is God GIVING THEM OVER. The disciples said to Jesus "Do you realize that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" Jesus answer Matthew 15:14 LET THEM ALONE.

 

[Tom Butler]

Howdy Tom,Lets take a look...... John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. As I see this, its because they refused the light that they got "the talent",so judgment is God GIVING THEM OVER. The disciples said to Jesus "Do you realize that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" Jesus answer Matthew 15:14 LET THEM ALONE.

John is referring back to Isaiah 6, where God called Isaiah into the prophetic ministry. After Isaiah had surrendered to the call ("Here am I, send me"), God then told him, paraphrasing: You're going to preach, but nobody will listen They won't listen because I have blinded their eyes and stopped up their ears so that that won't. Isaiah preached for 40-plus years, but there is no record of a single convert.

John, led by the Spirit, related their inability to believe to God's blinding, not to their refusal to believe. They did not because they could not.

I confess that this is a hard passage. It is a disturbing one to me. But I must yield to the scripture rather than my own biases.

Either way one sees it, the fact is that God has, in this instance, made it impossible for some to be saved. How they can be held responsible for their unbelief is another thread.

 

[Allan]

John is referring back to Isaiah 6, where God called Isaiah into the prophetic ministry. After Isaiah had surrendered to the call ("Here am I, send me"), God then told him, paraphrasing: You're going to preach, but nobody will listen They won't listen because I have blinded their eyes and stopped up their ears so that that won't. Isaiah preached for 40-plus years, but there is no record of a single convert.

John, led by the Spirit, related their inability to believe to God's blinding, not to their refusal to believe. They did not because they could not.

I confess that this is a hard passage. It is a disturbing one to me. But I must yield to the scripture rather than my own biases.

Either way one sees it, the fact is that God has, in this instance, made it impossible for some to be saved. How they can be held responsible for their unbelief is another thread.

But we must remember Tom, their blinding came only after their own harding to the truth that God had already given them. The blinding is a judgment against them for their rejection of the truth already presented to them.

 

[Robert Snow]

The "whosoever" of John 3:15-16 was qualified by John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

"wishes" refers to a deliberate act of the will, in this case, the will of God Holy Spirit that causes men to be "born again", according to His will, so they will be the "whosoever" that believeth.And how do you reconcile this verse with the other verses in which God clearly selects and calls those He chooses for salvation? Even in 2 Pet. 1:9 "the Lord knows how to resuce the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;"

I would hold that 2 Pet 3:9 is referring to those "godly" that God will rescue (not allowing any to perish). That appears to be the context of his statement.

If you believe 3:9 refers to all men, then you have a contradiction with 1:9 which says "and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;"

God doesn't appear to have any qualms about keeping these men under punishment for the day of judgment.

When you highlight a few words, as you have done, you get a skewed understanding of the passage; "all ye" doesn't mean "all men".

Jesus had just said that it pleased God to reveal Himself to "babes" but hid Himself from those who are "wise and intellegent". Jesus says all things have been given to Him by the Father.

Jesus says (v.27) "...no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

To "know" God is to have salvation. Notice that Jesus says He chooses whom He will reveal the Father to.

It is then that He says, (v.28) "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy laden..."

So, the offer to "come" is not to "all men", but to "all who are weary and heavy laden". Who, then, are the ones who are "weary and heavy laden"?

It is the ones that Jesus has "willed" to reveal the Father, and the judgment that He spoke of in v. 21-24. Those who recieve that revelation respond with weariness and heaviness of heart...I believe that refers to conviction of sin and repentance toward God.

This is why Jesus encourages these people to learn from Him, take on His yoke and find rest for their souls. Their souls are under conviction of sin and the terrifying expectation of the coming judgment and hell.

Also notice that what Jesus offers is not freedom, but a yoke. A yoke means enslavement.

Enslavement to Christ is the most joyous opportunity anyone can imagine, for His yoke is easy and His load is light.

So you see, the verses you quoted actually demonstrate the opposite of what you thought they proved.

peace to youraying:

You will, no doubt, see it from a Calvinistic viewpoint regardless of what is posted, so we will just have to disagree.

I believe the "elect" are those who will respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

But we must remember Tom, their blinding came only after their own harding to the truth that God had already given them. The blinding is a judgment against them for their rejection of the truth already presented to them.

Allan, you have gone to the heart of the discussion, as usual. Is the blinding the result of a rejection of the truth, or is it the other way around?

I see it one way, you see it the other.

Now, if we read further in John 12, we come across another mystifying verse. Right after John talks about blinding and hardening, and clouding understanding so that they could not believe, along comes verse 42:
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him...

I'm still chewing on that apparent paradox.

 

[webdog]

Allan, you have gone to the heart of the discussion, as usual. Is the blinding the result of a rejection of the truth, or is it the other way around?

Why would a dead man need to be blinded if they are unable to respond initially?

Luke 8
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

 

[MB]

I have been re-studying so-called "Calvinism" -- inasmuch as it is vigorously seeking a foothold all around me -- and I am very curious as to what it's proponents (or opponents) have to say of the very powerful Romans Ch. 1 and it's overwhelming implications on salvation, evangelism, & predestination. I will strive to be brief, not antagonistic. I truly desire Christian discourse in this matter.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Verse 1:20 being the key & fulcrum. Very creation screams out to the understanding of one & all of the invisible things of God (see Hebrews 11:1) -- EVEN His eternal power & Godhead -- God Himself has shown all men these things (v. 19). Men chose to ignore these facts (v. 21). So that they are now without excuse. They (we) are each & all accountable. God is now justified to send them (us) all to hell. Not one can say, "But I never heard of Jesus." God showed them His existence & His Godhead. God says this is sufficient grounds for them to be without excuse. Had they acted on this very sufficient light from God (think deepest, darkest, uncivilized jungle, etc.) -- God would have sent more evidence on which to believe until they did hear of Jesus the Christ (think missionary) -- and then believe unto salvation. This is "faith to faith" (V. 17).

Bottom line: Man is absolutely depraved, slave to sin, etc., but NOT totally depraved. Man is capable of choosing God -- based on His revelation. God holds each accountable for their enlightened understanding -- and for their ensuing choices. TULIP appears to stand or fall together. T seems to have no legs.

I'm glad that you see that in scripture I wish everyone did. Man is capable but is unwilling with out some motovation from God and or the Holy Spirit. The truth is, all are drawn because Christ was lifted up. As in;
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ was lifted up. And as a result all are drawn. Still not all come to Christ and here is why;
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
For some even though they are evil get the light shown on them just long enough for them to get a good look at themselves in there sin. This convicts them and there conviction takes them to there knees in submission to Christ.
MB

 

[canadyjd]

You will, no doubt, see it from a Calvinistic viewpoint regardless of what is posted, so we will just have to disagree.

I notice you did not engage the actual text we were discussing to show me why I am wrong. I urge you not to retreat into your pre-concieved notions and understand the passages in context. Engage the text.

I see these verses from a biblical viewpoint. I came to believe in election and predestination long before I ever heard of Calvin.

When you see the context, the passages you quoted clearly support that view of election.

I believe the "elect" are those who will respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I also believe the "elect" will respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I suspect, based on what you have stated, that you believe God responds to the man making the profession of faith by granting to him grace and election.

I maintain that scripture supports the view that man responds to God's grace and election, through the power of Holy Spirit in regeneration and conviction, with repentance and a profession of faith in Jesus Christ.

So...you have God responding to man...and I hold that man responds to God. I believe my view is biblical.

We will, then, have to disagee.

peace to youraying: