The topic isn't "here is what I think preservation is". The topic is a question..to you.."So what is preservation". I then detailed what exactly I mean by that...what/how/what it looks like, whatever you want really. So then the objective being, you answer the question with what you think God's preserved Word is. Then, if you like, we can discuss that thought.
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So what is 'preservation'?
- Thread starter Wally
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“Either learn it yourself, or realize that God has gifted some of us linguistically to help.”
-I’m pretty busy, and probably not smart enough…so I’ll just have to let you tell me what God’s Word says I guess…?
“P. S. Yes, I trust copies of copies, preserved by God's providence, just like you trust copies of copies of the KJV. And I'll produce the original manuscripts of the Bible when you produce the original handwritten manuscripts of the KJV.”
-So you believe that God preserved His Word in the written form and because you're well educated, you were only able to rest your mind on the Greek and Hebrew. Instead of that filthy English. Do you trust them because they’re perfect? If so, knowing what you do about textual criticism are you still calling that providence or a miracle? If not, what makes them better than a translation?
I promise, I will never become a translator (I actually have God’s Word in the language I already know so…)
Well, so far that’s what I’m hearing…God preserved His Word where only the best and brightest can get to it or put your trust in some man to tell you what Truth is.
Anyone else have anything?
Well, if you don’t want to talk about what the Bible has to say, I won’t force you.
Seriously? Well, you got me...all i can say to that is, I know you are but what am I.
In case you are unaware, this is a discussion forum, not an inquisition forum.
Unless you are willing to contribute, I am not willing to be cross-examined by you.
No Inquisition... Don't answer, no consequences. Absolutely the only reason my understanding makes any difference to you is that you intend to defend your position by attacking mine. If your argument is that untenable I don't really care to hear it anyway.
Thanks though, sorry to have wasted your time.
And yours is called, "If I can't defeat his argument I'll accuse him of illogic."
I have no disdain for you.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. It has no relation to anything I've written here.
again, there were no miracles. But I plainly gave glory to God in His providence. I was pretty clear about that. God gifted me in languages and lead me all the way through the project.
I actually thought you would rejoice with me that such a project was finished. At last the Japanese people can have a NT in modern Japanese from the TR. But your response is, "What's the rush?"
And now you have run out of arguments, so you feel you must mock me with things I have not written.
Sad that you feel the need to accuse me of writing things I never have.
“And yours is called, "If I can't defeat his argument I'll accuse him of illogic." “
- Not sure if your face thingy means your joking…? Let’s look at it though; “surely you do not think that every event of translating the Bible is miracle” Incredulity…not seeing anything to refute there..” Just because synapses fire in my brain and I translate the Word of God does not mean that a miracle has occurred, does it?” More of an ‘if then’ logical fallacy than incredulity (though there is some). I suppose could answer it anyway…no, it doesn’t mean that a miracle DID occur. However, does it mean that a miracle DIDN’T occur? (see if then logical fallacy). What else?...” Do you honestly think that thinking is a miracle equivalent to Biblical miracles such as the feeding of the 5000, the healing of blind men and lepers and others, the resurrection of Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord? If so, you cheapen the idea of a miracle from God.” I see nothing here but incredulity. I CAN answer though..Yes. So what do you have left to respond with…’huff puff…righteous indignation..how dare you’…? How about a logical argument as to why it CAN’T be a miracle? You’ve insisted it can’t be. Is incredulity seriously all you’ve got?
“I have no disdain for you.” – The personal disdain is yours for the argument that it is a miracle…not disdain for me personally.
“I have no idea what you are talking about here. It has no relation to anything I've written here.” – Can’t help you here. You’re either being intentionally obtuse or (based on above I’d lean toward) reading comprehension issues. Either way, you’ll have to figure that one out I guess.
“But I plainly gave glory to God in His providence” – Kind of in this way ‘Lord thank you for making me so smart and the most humble person I know’. You asked about what you should tell your students …should you tell them that all they’ve done, the education, training, efforts they put in, and God didn’t need them to do that. After all that He was just going to use a miracle..? YEP…that’s EXACTLY what you should tell them. NO, God DIDN’T NEED you…He CAN do it all by Himself. Then you should tell them that all that education, training and work they put in…those are filthy RAGS and they should be on their knees praising and thanking God that He allowed them to participate in His plan anyway.
“I actually thought you would rejoice with me that such a project was finished” – Yes, I do rejoice that God can use a bent stick to strike a straight blow. No, I don’t give you any credit. I would, but I truly believe you’ve got that covered.
“And now you have run out of arguments, so you feel you must mock me with things I have not written.” – You didn’t even reference my argument. This particular mocking was just ‘extra’ free of charge.
- Not sure if your face thingy means your joking…? Let’s look at it though; “surely you do not think that every event of translating the Bible is miracle” Incredulity…not seeing anything to refute there..” Just because synapses fire in my brain and I translate the Word of God does not mean that a miracle has occurred, does it?” More of an ‘if then’ logical fallacy than incredulity (though there is some). I suppose could answer it anyway…no, it doesn’t mean that a miracle DID occur. However, does it mean that a miracle DIDN’T occur? (see if then logical fallacy). What else?...” Do you honestly think that thinking is a miracle equivalent to Biblical miracles such as the feeding of the 5000, the healing of blind men and lepers and others, the resurrection of Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord? If so, you cheapen the idea of a miracle from God.” I see nothing here but incredulity. I CAN answer though..Yes. So what do you have left to respond with…’huff puff…righteous indignation..how dare you’…? How about a logical argument as to why it CAN’T be a miracle? You’ve insisted it can’t be. Is incredulity seriously all you’ve got?
“I have no disdain for you.” – The personal disdain is yours for the argument that it is a miracle…not disdain for me personally.
“I have no idea what you are talking about here. It has no relation to anything I've written here.” – Can’t help you here. You’re either being intentionally obtuse or (based on above I’d lean toward) reading comprehension issues. Either way, you’ll have to figure that one out I guess.
“But I plainly gave glory to God in His providence” – Kind of in this way ‘Lord thank you for making me so smart and the most humble person I know’. You asked about what you should tell your students …should you tell them that all they’ve done, the education, training, efforts they put in, and God didn’t need them to do that. After all that He was just going to use a miracle..? YEP…that’s EXACTLY what you should tell them. NO, God DIDN’T NEED you…He CAN do it all by Himself. Then you should tell them that all that education, training and work they put in…those are filthy RAGS and they should be on their knees praising and thanking God that He allowed them to participate in His plan anyway.
“I actually thought you would rejoice with me that such a project was finished” – Yes, I do rejoice that God can use a bent stick to strike a straight blow. No, I don’t give you any credit. I would, but I truly believe you’ve got that covered.
“And now you have run out of arguments, so you feel you must mock me with things I have not written.” – You didn’t even reference my argument. This particular mocking was just ‘extra’ free of charge.
You are hearing and understanding incorrectly.
Perhaps you may hold to some form of human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning/teaching, and that is leading to your incorrect understanding of what others believe.
KJV-only reasoning/teaching in effect suggests that English-speaking believers put their blind trust in what an exclusive group of Church of England critics/scholars in 1611 tell them so it could be considered guilty of what you accuse others.
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That is just about the funniest thing I've heard this month. You're blaming KJVO for your inability to articulate what you believe about preservation. That is amazing. Enlighten me. Give me a better description than the one I have. I can only repeat what I'm hearing. I'm not trying to misrepresent... So fix it.
Wally is now reduced to personal attacks. This is always a sign to me that a poster has run out of logical arguments. I've made my points here. Everyone have a great day!
Personal attacks!? Wow.
Hey, you did your best John, thanks for participating.
Your assertion is incorrect. I clearly presented what I believe concerning preservation, but you failed to understand it or tried to misrepresent it. You are not accurately repeating what others state concerning preservation.
You refuse to admit the possibility that it is your understanding of what they clearly stated that is incorrect.
You make negative allegations or assertions against other posters instead of soundly discussing what they stated.
Is your own understanding and position on preservation so untenable that you are unwilling to attempt to present it?
Is it a KJV-only understanding?
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Okay, I went back through this thread looking for where you clearly stated where God preserved His Word. I had already given you credit for precisely defining what is NOT God's Word (most notably the KJV).
I went back and re-read your dissertation on how to identify what is not His Word and had already noted that you had several quotes regarding how to identify what IS God's Word. However, the closest thing I found to stating where/in what you would find God's Word is this quote from Jim Taylor...
"God gave us his words in Greek and Hebrew and thus, he preserves his words in those languages”
Based on this quote (I can only assume matches your understanding because you never state your personal understanding)..I summerized this as God having preserved His Word somewhere in the thousands of Greek and Hebrew texts and one would need to learn those languages to find the preserved words or trust someone to tell you what they are.
Everytime I have attempted to summerize anyone's understanding I have stated clearly that it was entirely possible that I was misunderstanding, because yesua1 was the only one to clearly state it... Eventually. And I always said... Really begged... That if I stated it incorrectly PLEASE correct it. As I just did in my last comment. Instead of correcting me, you just tell me that I'm wrong...
FIX IT!!! Or point me to where in this thread you told me where God preserved His Word.
I went back and re-read your dissertation on how to identify what is not His Word and had already noted that you had several quotes regarding how to identify what IS God's Word. However, the closest thing I found to stating where/in what you would find God's Word is this quote from Jim Taylor...
"God gave us his words in Greek and Hebrew and thus, he preserves his words in those languages”
Based on this quote (I can only assume matches your understanding because you never state your personal understanding)..I summerized this as God having preserved His Word somewhere in the thousands of Greek and Hebrew texts and one would need to learn those languages to find the preserved words or trust someone to tell you what they are.
Everytime I have attempted to summerize anyone's understanding I have stated clearly that it was entirely possible that I was misunderstanding, because yesua1 was the only one to clearly state it... Eventually. And I always said... Really begged... That if I stated it incorrectly PLEASE correct it. As I just did in my last comment. Instead of correcting me, you just tell me that I'm wrong...
FIX IT!!! Or point me to where in this thread you told me where God preserved His Word.
You're correct, not only untenable.. Flat out wrong! Does that help?
Now can you tell me where I can find God's preserved Word so I can go right out and get a copy of and start studying immediately... THANKS!
Here are your personal attacks in Post #130
You don't call these personal attacks? REALLY?
I rate you almost as good as Rippon2 here.
Do you feel that the translations of the scriptures into English are trustworthy to use?
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