Sodomites and Baptists

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Martin:
In my view he is too much of a popular preacher and not a theologian. I am, in general, not a fan of the "popularist" preachers and I certainly don't think we should be picking them as presidents of our convention. I have theologial differences with Hunt but that is not my main issue with him. I had the same differences with Patterson but he is a theologian unlike people like Hunt and Welch who are mostly popularist preachers. So my main "beef" with Hunt, Welch, and Graham are that they are popularist preachers and not mainly theologians. Look back at Adrian Rodgers or Charles Stanley.

So you would rather listen to men who run people off and those who are divorced?

Ever read those in depth sermons preached?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by go2church:
This is really what you folks worry about, homosexuals taking over the Southern Baptist Convention? You folks need to get out more, read a newspaper, and tune the radio to something other then AFA!

Those folks have not been doing any evangelism. Even most non-believers outside of the church are against homosexual leaders in the church.

 

[J.R.Maddox]

So how long until Baptists start accepting homosexuals? I don't think the SBC will ever "approve" of homosexuality. However I do believe, unless something changes fast and soon, we will see a softening of the SBC's position on the issue. Why? Because it will be the "popular" thing to do in a few years. After all we are all sinners, right? And homosexuality is just another sin, right? Those types of "justifications" will be the new normal I am afraid.

Your understanding of the current SBC is pretty off my friend. I really don't think you have a clue to what you are saying. The men who are currently 'running the show" are far from this position. Could it happen in a few years...anything is possible...but you would see a mass exodus of church's...there are many 'Seeker Friendly' church's in the SBC...but they are far from the majority...and even the Ed Young Jr.'s, the Saddlebacks, the Andy Stanley's...they are resolutely clear on the subject of homosexuality! Remember, these guys position on scripture and inerrancy is pretty strong...it is sufficiency in which they are weak....IMHO

J

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by J.R.Maddox:
The President of the convention is to preside over the meetings of the convention and to work in the election of trustees...we dont need a pope!

Reality is that the president also tends to set the theological tone for the convention indirectly by how he elects trustees and other committees. If you don't think this effects the future pastors of our Churches and the direction they lead it, I think you are not looking at this with the big picture in mind. This is why it is important to me to have someone leading the Convention who is a theologian.

Gee...we would not want somebody going around stressing evangelism and soul winning...why, we might end up wittnesing to the non elect...THE HORROR!!!!!!!

J [/QUOTE]

I did some searching to learn more about Pastor Johnny Hunt, and found your comment mocking those of us of the Reformed Beliefs to be disturbingly similar to a quote from Pastor Hunt himself at the Pastors Conference last year:

Someone said, “I don’t think you ought to preach like that.” Well, I just hope no one gets saved that’s not supposed to.

web page

Yours, and Pastor Hunt's comments were crude, lacking in the love of Christ, and missed the mark in several ways:

1. Both you and Pastor Hunt assumed that because one is a Reformed Theologian that they lack the zeal for evangelism. This is a lie that is propogated mostly by those of the free-will persuasion to smear those who disagree with them. I have just as much zeal to witness to all people as you claim to, whether they be of the elect or not, because my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, has commanded me to. Since I am a new creation and have a new mind of Christ, how could I not care for the lost and share the Gospel with them?

2. Particularly to Pastor Hunt's comment, none of the non-elect will ever be saved. I don't have to worry about that. This decision is in the sovereign hands of God, not mine. My duty and obligation is to be obedient to the commands of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He knows who the elect are and are not, since he chose them from the foundations of the world.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin:
In my view he is too much of a popular preacher and not a theologian. I am, in general, not a fan of the "popularist" preachers and I certainly don't think we should be picking them as presidents of our convention. I have theologial differences with Hunt but that is not my main issue with him. I had the same differences with Patterson but he is a theologian unlike people like Hunt and Welch who are mostly popularist preachers. So my main "beef" with Hunt, Welch, and Graham are that they are popularist preachers and not mainly theologians. Look back at Adrian Rodgers or Charles Stanley.

So you would rather listen to men who run people off and those who are divorced?

Ever read those in depth sermons preached? </font>[/QUOTE]Who did Patterson run off? I am quite glad he ran off many of the liberal wolves in sheeps clothing who were trying to destroy the Church with their false doctrines.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by shannonL:
If the "seeker friendly", cream puff preachers like Andy Stanley, RW, Ed young jr. if guys like that continue to gain massive followings but never take a stand they might not cave into disregarding what the Bible says about homosexuality but they sure are tilling the soil that will one day sprout forth the seeds of such thinking to sprout forth. If it hasn't already happened. The fact of the matter is if you never ever preach against anything and everything is always positive, positive, positive well then one's feelings and emotions become the basis for one's doctrine other than the Bible .
Some poke fun at the "good ole boys' or the "old guard" of the SBC. If the seeker friendly crowd of SBC people get to be the mainstream then conservatives who were willing to tolerate such lite preaching now will wish a thousand times over they had took a harder stand against such frothy, puny preaching and methods etc...
BTW, Johnny Hunt may not be a calvinist but he preaches with conviction. He is a strong believer in the inerrancy, infallibility of Scripture.
I'm glad guys like him are around.
I'm thankful for the Al Mohler's too. Along with some other reformed SBC brethern.
Right now more than ever it seems hollywood, mainstream culture etc... seems to be more than ever trying to shove homosexuality down our throats as an acceptable lifestyle.
The time will come when it will be time to put up or shut up as bible believers whether some believers will want to or not.
It will be at that time when we shall see who loves the praise of men,media big crowds etc..OR the praise of God the Father.

I'm not exactly sure who "RW" is, but the two others you mentioned are somewhat familiar. Andy Stanley no longer pastors a "Baptist" church, having resigned that to found Northpoint Community Church. Out of curiosity, you mentioned "lite preaching". Care to elaborate?? It seems that this thread has some sort of preconceived idea that large churches are receiving some sort of watered down message, preached by, as ShannonL phrased it, "cream puff preachers" preaching in some sort of "seeker friendly" church, else they would not be 'large'. I'd suggest that the late(s) W. A. Criswell and/or George W. Truett might beg to differ. I'm not saying ShannonL is doing this, by any stretch, but this is what has been implied, by some others. The SBC certainly is far from perfect; it is also been allowed to become, in the providence of God, the largest "Protestant" denomination in history. And with nearing 40,000 churches, we cover a lot of ground, and with a membership of over 16,000,000. Maybe rather than someone attempting to shoot in the general direction with a scatter-gun, we might concentrate on "cutting straight the Word of Truth" with a "Sword of the Spirit!".

Ed

 

[J.R.Maddox]

Reality is that the president also tends to set the theological tone for the convention indirectly by how he elects trustees and other committees. If you don't think this effects the future pastors of our Churches and the direction they lead it, I think you are not looking at this with the big picture in mind. This is why it is important to me to have someone leading the Convention who is a theologian.

No doubt that this is so...I was not implying that Theology is not important...in fact it is crucial...but for the original poster to imply that men like Hunt and Welch are not theologically capable is arrogant at least and at the worst judgmental and simply not true. In fact, the conservative resurgence is proof that theology is important...and I was a part of and support that movement in our convention.

I did some searching to learn more about Pastor Johnny Hunt, and found your comment mocking those of us of the Reformed Beliefs to be disturbingly similar to a quote from Pastor Hunt himself at the Pastors Conference last year:

Yours, and Pastor Hunt's comments were crude, lacking in the love of Christ, and missed the mark in several ways:

Well, I cant speak for Dr. Hunt, but as for my comments...first of all my brother you have no idea what my own position is...I hold firmly to 4 points of the 5...If my comment was harsh it certainly was not intended as such and was lost in the translation of a posting forum...you have my heartfelt apology...however, is it not as equally offensive when folks are told they are not theological enough by reformed Baptist when they stress soul winning and evangelism... Martin was judging Dr. Hunt as a theologian and accusing him of being a 'Seeker'...I am sure Dr. Hunt would be offended...and by the way...I am not in agreement with Dr. Hunts view on election...I just don't intend to brand him a theological babe because he may not hold to the tenants of election in the same way I do.

1. Both you and Pastor Hunt assumed that because one is a Reformed Theologian that they lack the zeal for evangelism. This is a lie that is propagated mostly by those of the free-will persuasion to smear those who disagree with them. I have just as much zeal to witness to all people as you claim to, whether they be of the elect or not, because my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, has commanded me to. Since I am a new creation and have a new mind of Christ, how could I not care for the lost and share the Gospel with them?

Again, I feel you misunderstood my intention, yet again I will apologize...I am in complete agreement with you, however do you not see that those who hold to more of a free will position grow weary of being accused of being theologically lacking because of their emphasis on mans personal decision to accept Christ

2. Particularly to Pastor Hunt's comment, none of the non-elect will ever be saved. I don't have to worry about that. This decision is in the sovereign hands of God, not mine. My duty and obligation is to be obedient to the commands of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He knows who the elect are and are not, since he chose them from the foundations of the world.

Again, I cannot speak for Dr. Hunt...I am sure he was simply using hyperbole and mild sarcasm...but again, I am in complete agreement with you brother...again my point is simply this...many Calvinist...of which I consider myself to be...come across as being extremely arrogant. We need to get over ourselves...preach the gospel...tell everyone about the love of the Savior and leave the results up to God...

Again, if you were personally offended by my remarks do know my heart that I did not intend to come across in an offensive matter but I am troubled by the hyper spirituality and arrogance by some in the reformed movement...and before you nail me Joseph...I do realize it cuts both ways!

Grace and Peace

J

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by shannonL:
If the "seeker friendly", cream puff preachers like Andy Stanley, RW, Ed young jr. if guys like that continue to gain massive followings but never take a stand they might not cave into disregarding what the Bible says about homosexuality but they sure are tilling the soil that will one day sprout forth the seeds of such thinking to sprout forth. If it hasn't already happened. The fact of the matter is if you never ever preach against anything and everything is always positive, positive, positive well then one's feelings and emotions become the basis for one's doctrine other than the Bible .
Some poke fun at the "good ole boys' or the "old guard" of the SBC. If the seeker friendly crowd of SBC people get to be the mainstream then conservatives who were willing to tolerate such lite preaching now will wish a thousand times over they had took a harder stand against such frothy, puny preaching and methods etc...
BTW, Johnny Hunt may not be a calvinist but he preaches with conviction. He is a strong believer in the inerrancy, infallibility of Scripture.
I'm glad guys like him are around.
I'm thankful for the Al Mohler's too. Along with some other reformed SBC brethern.
Right now more than ever it seems hollywood, mainstream culture etc... seems to be more than ever trying to shove homosexuality down our throats as an acceptable lifestyle.
The time will come when it will be time to put up or shut up as bible believers whether some believers will want to or not.
It will be at that time when we shall see who loves the praise of men,media big crowds etc..OR the praise of God the Father.

Thanks, ShannonL---this post hits the nail on the head!!

 

[Martin]

EdSutton:

And how sure are you that all these 'of the "popularist" preachers' types are not "scholars of the Word."? For that certainly seems to be what you are implying. I realize we are talking about So. Baptists, but would you dismiss C. H. Spurgeon in the same way? Certainly he would fit under the category of '"popularist" preachers', I would think. How about W. A. Criswell? After all, he pastored the largest So. Baptist church in existence, when he was elected. Don't be too sure that Al Mohler could not be elected SBC President, in the first place. Perhaps he is not interested; not everyone is, necessarily. And the election of Paige Patterson shows that a "theologian" can certainly be elected President.

==It is not "large" churches that I am against, it is not "popular" preachers that I am worried about (per say). It is the "popularist" preachers. I think some call them "seeker-friendly", the "life-principles" people.


Martin.

 

[Martin]

J.R.Maddox:

the arrogance of the modern Calvinist or Baptist reformer or whatever the "proper theological name" of the moment is, makes me want to have nothing to do with you guys...

==I have said NOTHING about Calvinism (etc) that is something you brought up. Let's also notice that I approved of men like Adrian Rodgers, Charles Stanley, and Paige Patterson (hardly Calvinists) even though I have differences with them theologically (see my previous posts in this thread where I mention this). So I have to wonder why you brought this up in such a manner. If you believe that those of us who want a serious theoglogian as a president are "arrogant" than that is your issue not mine. If you don't want to have anything to do with us then again that is your issue, not mine. I am perfectly willing to fellowship with non-Calvinists and I don't normally divide over the issue, and that is not what my reply was about. I am talking about the "popularists" preachers. So I have to wonder about your reply and what it really means....


_______________________________________

The President of the convention is to preside over the meetings of the convention and to work in the election of trustees...we dont need a pope!

==Who said anything about a pope? And since when did a person being a theologian and president of the convention equal that person being "pope"? Do you think Paige Patterson was a pope?

Btw the person the convention elects represents the convention. So their job description is not what concerns me, what concerns me is what a man like Welch's election means about the doctrine of the SBC.

_____________________________________

Gee...we would not want somebody going around stressing evangelism and soul winning...why, we might end up wittnesing to the non elect...THE HORROR!

==Welch was running around in his bus trying to see how many he could baptize. That is counting numbers. The concern needs to be with real salvation not "decisionism" and counting bodies in seats, or names on a roll.

Martin.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by J.R.Maddox:

Reality is that the president also tends to set the theological tone for the convention indirectly by how he elects trustees and other committees. If you don't think this effects the future pastors of our Churches and the direction they lead it, I think you are not looking at this with the big picture in mind. This is why it is important to me to have someone leading the Convention who is a theologian.

No doubt that this is so...I was not implying that Theology is not important...in fact it is crucial...but for the original poster to imply that men like Hunt and Welch are not theologically capable is arrogant at least and at the worst judgmental and simply not true. In fact, the conservative resurgence is proof that theology is important...and I was a part of and support that movement in our convention.

I did some searching to learn more about Pastor Johnny Hunt, and found your comment mocking those of us of the Reformed Beliefs to be disturbingly similar to a quote from Pastor Hunt himself at the Pastors Conference last year:

Yours, and Pastor Hunt's comments were crude, lacking in the love of Christ, and missed the mark in several ways:

Well, I cant speak for Dr. Hunt, but as for my comments...first of all my brother you have no idea what my own position is...I hold firmly to 4 points of the 5...If my comment was harsh it certainly was not intended as such and was lost in the translation of a posting forum...you have my heartfelt apology...however, is it not as equally offensive when folks are told they are not theological enough by reformed Baptist when they stress soul winning and evangelism... Martin was judging Dr. Hunt as a theologian and accusing him of being a 'Seeker'...I am sure Dr. Hunt would be offended...and by the way...I am not in agreement with Dr. Hunts view on election...I just don't intend to brand him a theological babe because he may not hold to the tenants of election in the same way I do.

1. Both you and Pastor Hunt assumed that because one is a Reformed Theologian that they lack the zeal for evangelism. This is a lie that is propagated mostly by those of the free-will persuasion to smear those who disagree with them. I have just as much zeal to witness to all people as you claim to, whether they be of the elect or not, because my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, has commanded me to. Since I am a new creation and have a new mind of Christ, how could I not care for the lost and share the Gospel with them?

Again, I feel you misunderstood my intention, yet again I will apologize...I am in complete agreement with you, however do you not see that those who hold to more of a free will position grow weary of being accused of being theologically lacking because of their emphasis on mans personal decision to accept Christ

2. Particularly to Pastor Hunt's comment, none of the non-elect will ever be saved. I don't have to worry about that. This decision is in the sovereign hands of God, not mine. My duty and obligation is to be obedient to the commands of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He knows who the elect are and are not, since he chose them from the foundations of the world.

Again, I cannot speak for Dr. Hunt...I am sure he was simply using hyperbole and mild sarcasm...but again, I am in complete agreement with you brother...again my point is simply this...many Calvinist...of which I consider myself to be...come across as being extremely arrogant. We need to get over ourselves...preach the gospel...tell everyone about the love of the Savior and leave the results up to God...

Again, if you were personally offended by my remarks do know my heart that I did not intend to come across in an offensive matter but I am troubled by the hyper spirituality and arrogance by some in the reformed movement...and before you nail me Joseph...I do realize it cuts both ways!

Grace and Peace

J

Thank you for the apology and I apologize if I misunderstood your comments.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[EdSutton]

The concern needs to be with real salvation not "decisionism" and counting bodies in seats, or names on a roll.

I do have to admit, that I am more 'impressed' with bodies in the seats, be it in the bus or busses, in the auditorium, in the SS class, in the Bible Study

, in the prayer service

, or in the church van, as our church moves them out for one of our 'mission' trips whether to South America, Central America, Georgia, or now, Mississippi and Louisiana, to help with the rebuilding and churches in the area after the hurricanes, anytime,

than "the names on the roll". Why, if I did not happen to attend the Easter services at our church, due to being out of town, or ill, I would miss seeing some 'members' whose names are "on the church roll" for maybe at least a year and probably, in some cases, up to five or even te...
Ed

I'm not particularly sure much of this has anything, per se, to do with the OP, FTR.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by EdSutton:

Why, if I did not happen to attend the Easter services at our church, due to being out of town, or ill, I would miss seeing some 'members' whose names are "on the church roll" for maybe at least a year and probably, in some cases, up to five or even te...
Ed

I'm not particularly sure much of this has anything, per se, to do with the OP, FTR.

Ed---I call these people "Bunny Rabbit Christians"---they come hoppin' in to church every Easter!!!!

 

[J.R.Maddox]

Ed---I call these people "Bunny Rabbit Christians"---they come hoppin' in to church every Easter!!!!

One preacher on Easter morning would wish everyone a merry Christmas....because it would be next Easter before he saw many of them again!

YIKES!!!!

j

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Originally posted by Martin:
In my view he is too much of a popular preacher and not a theologian. I am, in general, not a fan of the "popularist" preachers and I certainly don't think we should be picking them as presidents of our convention. I have theologial differences with Hunt but that is not my main issue with him. I had the same differences with Patterson but he is a theologian unlike people like Hunt and Welch who are mostly popularist preachers. So my main "beef" with Hunt, Welch, and Graham are that they are popularist preachers and not mainly theologians. Look back at Adrian Rodgers or Charles Stanley. While I have theologial differences with both at least you could listen to their sermons and come away with large amounts of solid, healthy theology (also they were presidents at a different time). These popularist preachers today are far below even that scale.

Humbly I ask: Have you ever listened to Johnny Hunt preach?

The reason I ask is that I have heard him preach - twice. Both times he preached a biblically solid message. Nothing "lite" or fluffy about it. I'm not sure that his being popular within the SBC is a disqualifying factor.

 

[blackbird]

Every preacher elected President of the SBC since its Conservative Resurgence beginning in 1989 has been "died in the wool" preachers of inerrancy.

Johnny Hunt is a "Lean, mean preaching machine!!"

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

What little I have seen of him, I haven't been impressed. Maybe I need to research him further to see what you see, Blackbird. Does he post audio sermons on his Church's website?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[J.R.Maddox]

What little I have seen of him, I haven't been impressed. Maybe I need to research him further to see what you see, Blackbird. Does he post audio sermons on his Church's website?

I am new to this board so maybe I just don’t get it...but the arrogance sited by many posters here is simply amazing. The above quote is just one example. "I have not been impressed" well brother...I don't know if you are a preacher or not but I must tell you we do not preach so that you will be impressed. Johnny Hunt is a die in the wool gospel preacher. He is an expository preacher who breaks down the text and explains and applies it to relevant living. But I tell you what...you go and "check him out" and see if he meets your approval. Joseph...earlier you posted how 'offended' you were by my remarks...do you stop to think for a moment that your remarks are terribly offensive and demeaning to Dr. Hunt?

Judging By the few times I have posted I believe I will more than likely find a board where folks practice a little more spiritual maturity

J

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Be my guest. See ya.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I am listening to one of his Sunday Sermons now. It will be interesting to hear more of him and learn more about him.

Joseph Botwinick