BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So then if "you" were writing the book of Jude - no way you would have included that Jude 9 quote of the book "the Assumption of Moses"??
Nice to know.
But turns out - Jude is the author ... so then ... it is still there.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Sola Scriptura and OSAS...again
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
- Status
So then if "you" were writing the book of Jude - no way you would have included that Jude 9 quote of the book "the Assumption of Moses"??
Nice to know.
But turns out - Jude is the author ... so then ... it is still there.
Christ doesn't have to "argue in favor of bodily resurrection," Bob, it is a basic teaching/doctrine of the Old Testament. I have already mentioned this, what, three times now?
Why would He "argue in favor of bodily resurrection" when the disciples saw Him raise people from the dead several times?
Secondly, we are not discussing bodily resurrection in a general sense but discussing glorification, which was a Mystery until revealed through Paul.
Right. "I'll eat something so you can know that I am alive again."
The central issue is the unbelief of the disciples that He had risen from the dead. We see many, many references to their unbelief.
Here is another one:
Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
They were still unbelieving. That is the central issue.
True, but lets put it back into it's original context:
Notice the difference? Flesh and bone, and flesh and blood?
1 Corinthians 15:50
King James Version (KJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Not until they are glorified.
They died, and are in spirit form right now, even as they were on the mount.
That a spirit can return is seen here:
1 Samuel 28
King James Version (KJV)
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
This is given with the implication that it is Samuel, who comes up (from Sheol/Hades), not down from Heaven.
He is a spirit, just as Moses and Elijah were.
Continued...
Bob, no need to stoop to false arguments. If you do not want to seriously discuss this, okay.
I have already made the point that this is not discussing general resurrection.
You can tell me why Christ would need to "argue for bodily resurrection" to disciples who had seen Him raise people from the dead, as in the case of Lazarus.
You are quoting me out of context.
There is no reason, when one can scroll across another members' statements and immediately quote exactly what they said...to quote like this.
But we both know why you do that, don't we?
Yes. lol
Because Christ was glorified...and Moses and Elijah are not. No-one is going to be glorified until the Rapture.
You keep ignoring the point that Christ is the Firstborn and the Firstfruits from the dead.
Firstfruits usually mean first in Scripture, don't they?
So let me ask you this, why were Moses and Elijah glorified...but Abraham wasn't? Christ teaches him to be in Hades in Luke 16.
Why not David?
Acts 2:29-32
King James Version (KJV)
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
?
And to bring sequence back into the discussion, consider...
Acts 26:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
First means first, my friend.
Continued...
But Bob, its not a detail relevant to what I have actually presented.
I don't disagree with that, but it is not the relevant issue.
We could also say "He is arguing for belief in Himself," and that too would be true, but its not what we are looking at.
That I agree with. Because they do not believe He had risen from the dead, and just as Scripture makes clear...they think they are seeing His spirit:
Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
It would more relevant to say "He is arguing that He is not a Spirit."
The point is...He has risen from death.
I have never said it wasn't, lol.
So show me where Moses and Elijah are said to have flesh and bone.
That's all you have to do.
Or, admit you are imposing that into the text.
God bless.
As I said, if you believe they were glorified, then you must also believe Solomon was glorified, because the same basic implication is made of him.
Already addressed. Running out of arguments?
That';s fine, but in view is a dispute over his body. That doesn't mean we embrace apocryphal books as inspired or accurate.
Would you also embrace the teachings of those quoted here...
Titus 1:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
...?
God bless.
I wouldn't remove it any more than I would remove this:
Doesn't mean I would view everything associated with those quoted as inspired, lol.
God bless.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In any case - Jude 9 exists and it is a quote from "The Assumption of Moses" --
You have free will and can do as you wish with that Bible detail.
I happen to accept it since it works perfectly into my view that Luke 9 and Matthew 17 are not examples of a seance - and they demonstrate the Hebrews 4:2 and the Gal 1:6-9, Gal 3:8 fact that the Gospel was active in the OT - saving souls then and saving souls still to this very day.
What I don't understand is how this Gospel detail even remotely argues for or against your view of OSAS?
The much bigger issue with BOB is that he holds to the Investigative Judgement of the Sda, as well as Sabbath keeping, and viewing Ellen While as inspired prophetess!
Its not my rabbit trail, Bob, its yours. Just being nice and trying to help you with this issue. We might see some application to Sola Scriptura, though, lol.
I will say that a proper understanding of resurrection is vital to our Soteriology, and understanding that the glorified form was a mystery (previously not revealed knowledge) and that it differs greatly from the Old Testament teaching (in that it is expanded, rather than different) is also critical when we try to balance the Word.
Understanding that the Provision of the New Testament differs greatly is also important, and ascribing New Covenant provision in the Old Testament is probably one of the
greatest errors, and it is committed by almost everyone. People think the Old Testament Saints were "saved on credit," and cannot distinguish the magnitude of the Cross, thus dimminishing both the Person and Work of Christ. Your own view demands an explanation of what Moses and Elijah were glorified by, and it is not the Cross of Christ, nor the provision of the New Covenant given to them in advance.
So now we get back to my request for you to explain this:
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Again, the context is that of remission of sins, the contrast being the sacrifices of the Law could not make one complete in regards to remission of sins, but Christ's has made them, and us...complete forever in regards to remission of sins.
Again, that is the clearest and most indisputable statement of Eternal Security in Scripture in my view. Because there is simply no way to change, grammatize, dramatize, or circumcise what it says.
And yes, I do feel I have liberty to make up words...
God bless.
Let's try to focus on the issues we are discussing, rather than attacking other beliefs a member might hold to.
God bless.
Those beliefs are really heretical though!
Are you saying you do not, or never had heretical beliefs?
Pat yourself on the back, lol, because you are on a very small list.
One of the primary reasons we should gather to discuss words is to help each other understand better. We can't let bias against false doctrines keep us from seeking to help others understand better, or seek to understand better ourselves.
Sometimes beliefs we do not embrace seem ludicrous, but if we keep in mind most people are indoctrinated into their particular faiths, and usually seek to make Scripture fit their beliefs, perhaps we might show a little more compassion towards them. An example would be Annihilation. When I first heard of it I thought this was the stupidest doctrine ever, lol, and couldn't understand why people would embrace it. Now I do understand. Its because many think the word soul always refers to an immaterial aspect of men, and when they read the many verses in the Old Testament speaking of "souls being destroyed," they make a syllogistic conclusion, which is based on error.
Major premise: soul means the inner man, like the spirit;
Minor premise: Scripture teaches souls will be destroyed;
Conclusion: unbelievers will perish totally in judgment.
There are numerous doctrines like that, even some held by us Baptists, lol. Many Baptists teach man as a tri-part being, body, soul, and spirit. My view is Scripture teaches man as a two part being, body and spirit. If you look at Ezekiel 18, and keep in mind that "soul" is simply a reference to persons, not an immaterial aspect of man, you will see that in view is physical death for those who do not keep the Law, and those who do (or try to, anyway) will not be put to death. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone teach out of that chapter eternal judgment, I could probably retire (or at least have a nice steak dinner).
But, let me say this, and it is only a little friendly advice: concentrate on addressing the post, not the poster. In other words, do not make interaction personal, nor direct insults at your antagonist (and antagonist doesn't have to have a negative connotation, it just refers to two who offer differ viewpoints). This will likely ensure that you will never have a meaningful discussion, and neither of you will benefit from having had the discussion. Address what is said only. Keep it doctrinal.
Easy to say, not so easy to do, lol. But something to shoot for.
God bless.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
My arguments about Sola Scriptura go this way --
It is you that brings it from all the texts listed above - around to Hebrews 10
Which is a statement about what is accomplished in "Atonement" specifically in the Atoning Sacrifice made at the cross.
After I point out that all the Hebrews 10 language is pointing to that "sacrifice" I also point this out --
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Which totally negates the idea that the atoning sacrifice ended the story "for the whole world" fixing the whole world as "forever saved". You made an argument via "inference" alone that does not hold up.
In the Bible there is only "ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 and that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8. This is irrefutable.
The New Covenant is in the OLD Testament - Jeremiah 31:31-33
Lots of inference and speculation there.
But the Bible says the Gospel was "preached to us just as it was to them also" Hebrews 4:2
And one proof of that Heb 4 statement is Elijah and Moses standing in glory with Christ in Luke 9 and Matthew 17 before the cross.
Not even remotely.
The Luke 9 and Matthew 17 do not ask the reader "Glorified by what" -- rather the glory of the eternal heavenly realm is always one and the same and always comes from God.
So then no "stories" about saints going to heaven and then dying there
no stories about the saints in glory not being forgiven or saved
The Bible has only "one Gospel" and that gospel refutes OSAS.
Christ's atoning sacrifice had Gospel power to save from the foundation of the world - and thus Elijah and Moses stand with Christ in Matt 17 in Luke 9 -- in glory -- in full communion with the sinless Christ -- even before the cross. And so for all the giants of faith in Hebrews 11 -- OT saints held up before the NT reader as examples of living faith - and the Gospel that works.
Last edited:
Let's look at them:
I have numerous threads started by me on this section of the board dealing with the fact that the false doctrine of OSAS does not survive the Bible details.
So here is "yet another"
OSAS does not survive the Bible details
in Matthew 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked"
[/QUOTE]
It is ironic that the first argument you present is a good example of how the New Testament, and Scripture as a whole, is misunderstood by those who refuse to recognize the magnitude of the Cross.
As already shown, numerous times, the forgiveness here...
Matthew 18:21-35
King James Version (KJV)
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
...is not Eternal Redemption, and is not the Remission of Sins in Completion as taught in Hebrews 10:14, which still have not adequately addressed. Just presenting false arguments (and I will point that out when we get to it) and saying it speaks generally doesn't change the fact that those who are sanctified by the Blood of Christ are made complete in regards to remission of sins...
...forever.
Here it is again:
Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The context is indisputably remission of sins, and here we see that the sacrifices of the Covenant of Law (nor those who offered them (Hebrews 7:11; Hebrews 9:9)) could not take away sins because the offering up of animals in the stead of the sinner...could not take away their sins. Hence they had to be repeated again.
But not so with the Sacrifice of Christ:
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version (KJV)
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The false argument that I have somehow implied that "the idea that the atoning sacrifice ended the story "for the whole world" fixing the whole world as "forever saved." is ridiculous Bob, I have made it clear this applies only to those who are sanctified by the Blood of Christ. If I have not, then understnad this now...
...I have never, and will never, suggested "the idea that the atoning sacrifice ended the story "for the whole world" fixing the whole world as "forever saved."
What I have suggested, and in fact been very clear about, is that here we have the contrast between animal sacrifice and the Sacrifice of Christ. Those who have been sanctified by His Blood are made complete in regards to remission of sins...
...forever.
Now, address my actual argument, and please refrain from imposing false arguments into the discussion, it only wastes time.
Going back to Matthew 18, I do not expect you to understand this passage in a Biblical context because your refuse to understand that not all of the "Gospels" in Scripture are the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Here...
Hebrews 4
King James Version (KJV)
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
...the good news is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but that God was going to bring them into their own land and give them rest.
It cannot possibly be the Gospel of Christ because that was Mystery, as shown to you numerous times. Another point you ignore.
But you know Bob, seeing you impose glorification into a passage using the word "glory," I guess I can see how you would make the same word fit every passage, and give it the same meaning. Though I have not seen you respond to my post showing that if you are going to be consistent, then you need to make Solomon glorified as well.
Going back to the word Gospel, when the disciples were sent out to preach they did not preach the Gospel of Christ, for at this time, again...
...it was Mystery. It was not revealed to them, or to any of sons of God in past Ages. That is what Scripture makes clear.
They preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is similar to the glad tidings given to Israel, "The Promised Kingdom is at hand." But because the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not yet being revealed, who was this Gospel preached to? Well...
...the people it was relevant to, to whom the promises were made:
Matthew 10
King James Version (KJV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Christ ministered, during His earthly Ministry...as the promised Messiah, to Israel. But don't take my word for it...
Matthew 15:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
...take Christ's Word for it.
And take Paul's Word...
Ephesians 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
...that the Gospel was a Mystery not revealed. He teaches this in numerous passages.
Continued...
No Bob, we do not see "salvation revoked," we see provision revoked.
The one thing that you have to understand is that you cannot revoke salvation from unbelievers:
Romans 11:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
This refers to unbelievers. You, and everyone that teaches loss of salvation, make believers out of those clearly said to be unbelieving. It is because of unbelief in the Gospel they heard that those brought out of Egypt...
...didn't enter into the rest God promised them.
Unbelievers, Bob, unbelievers. Not those saved, particularly before Christ obtained Eternal Redemption for for us. Another point you refuse to acknowledge, even though you cannot address it.
So tell me Bob, what gospel is it that these unbelievers were saved by? Not the Gospel of Christ...it was still a Mystery:
Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
What do you do with that?
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Let me know.
Continued...
Sorry, but no-one was "In Christ" at that point.
But don't take my word for it...
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The Eternal Indwelling of God did not begin until Christ died, rise again, and returned to Heaven. The Spirit of God has always ministered among men, but not in this capacity, as we see in v. 17 the Spirit is with them, but will be in them, and in v.16 it will be forever, contrasted to the Comforter they now have, the Consolation of Israel, soon departing.
He goes on to make this clear:
John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Please note the prophetic nature of His teaching here. Because He speaks of another day...it is not taking place at the time of this teaching, or...
...this one:
John 15
King James Version (KJV)
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Tell me Bob, what does He mean He is the True Vine?
Let me suggest to you that what He means, and will mean in this context is that He is the provision for relationship with GOd.
What Vine does He contrasts Himself to? When He states He is the True Bread in John 6, it contrasts the physical provision of the Old Testament...manna.
Here, He contrasts Himself with the former provision for relationship with God, which is through the Covenant of God.
Because you transform the disciples into believers, prior to the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ being revealed, you erroneously conclude that He is telling the disciples something they must do to remain saved. I am very sorry you believe that way, because it is a tragedy that your hope does not lie in Christ. Or maybe it oes: its just all those other wicked sinners that better watch out...
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Hmm, sounds very similar doesn't it? A little like Israel in Romans 11, where they have been cut out through unbelief.
What the Lord is saying is "Abide in me, do not return to your former ways (i.e., thinking you are in relationship to God because you are Jews).
This too speaks of a future day, when the Spirit will be sent, and men will then begin to be baptized by Christ with the Holy Ghost, or in other words, immersed into eternal union with GOd through the Reconciliatory Work of Christ.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Well here's your chance to grab something to fill that need you have for another Gospel, which is necessary if you make men Eternally Redeemed apart from the Sacrifice of Christ. You can say, "See! They are clean through the Word."
This is true, however, it is not the cleansing of the Blood of Christ, it is the cleansing that the Word of God, particularly spoken by the WORD of God, has always had on men.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Two things: first, note that those who are in fact abiding in Him do not fail to bring forth fruit. Secondly, not bearing fruit is accomplished by those who do not abide. The point is that instead of a context as you present, where men abide and then might not abide, we see that one either abides or doesn't.
Again, this looks to the future when the disciples will make the choice to abide, because if you keep on reading you will see that not one disciple "abided." Let me point out the next verse is clearly a statement referring to eternal punishment...
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
...and then support my statement that the Disciples did not abide. But don't take my word for it...
John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Let's see that again...
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
The disciples did not believe then, and the Lord is right to challenge their profession of belief, and Scripture shows that they did not believe He arose from the dead again, as pointed out to you several times already.
They did not believe the Gospel prior to the Cross...
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
...and they did not believe it after the Cross:
Mark 16:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
...because they had not received the Promised Spirit yet...
John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
...Who is the One that revealed the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ to them.
Loss of salvation is a false doctrine and we see that so far not one of your proof texts holds up to scrutiny. But don't feel bad, Bob, most reject some pretty basic truths because it doesn't fit with what they want to believe.
Continued...
Its a physical context, and the death in view is physical, not eternal (though I am sure among them were those destined for the mists of darkness).
Read it again, understanding that the term "soul" simply refers to the person in view, not the immaterial aspect of man:
Ezekiel 18
King James Version (KJV)
1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
That is, he will not be put to death, physical death, as the Law (which is the established measure for man in the Age this is written) demands.
If you seriously think one can achieve eternal life by not committing idolatry, adultery, lying with a menstruous woman, not oppressing anyone, paying his debts, not fighting, failing to be charitable, and so on, then...
...bingo, Bob, we have just found the gospel by which men were saved by in the Old Testament.
Sadly, you deny Christ if you say this is so, though. But I know you don't do that, Bob, intentionally, anyway. It is the conclusion though, if you impose an eternal context to this passage.
Again the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachings)...
...lose.
Continued...
You'll have to be a little more specific.
How is being disqualified for service losing salvation?
Not only does it survive it, it begs the question as to what one has faith in, if they see this as "losing salvation:"
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Bob, I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but Christians are not in relationship with God through the Covenant of Law.
I will also mention that nowhere in Scripture is it stated that men are saved by keeping the Law, or lose salvation by not keeping it (your confusion on a proper context of Ezekiel 18 already noted). In fact, Paul makes the vehement assertion that this is a belief held by those who are foolish:
Galatians 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Foolish and bewitched, that is Paul's assessment of those who think they can contribute to their salvation by the works of the Law.
Continued...
Again you ascribe salvation to unbelievers:
Romans 2:4-9
King James Version (KJV)
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
There is a contrast between those who are in need of repentance, have hard and impenitent hearts, contentious, do not obey the truth, obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, and does evil...
...and those who seek for glory, honor, and immortality.
The former, eternal judgment, the latter...eternal life.
Again, the L.O.S.T. lose.
Continued...
You see loss of salvation in Paul's concerns those he ministered to had ignored his teaching?
That amazing, Bob.
Neither are the ones presented to you, and we still need to see why this...
Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
...doesn't teach that those sanctified by the Blood of Christ are not made complete in regards to remission of sins forever.
Which was promised by God:
Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Continued...
- Status