Sola Scriptura and OSAS...again

[Darrell C]

Because you place all your weight on "extreme inference" from things like "the mystery" where some detail is unfolded over time

First, the Mystery of both the Rapture and the Gospel of Christ was not "unfolded over time, it was revealed at a specific time in Scripture.

Secondly, until you address the "extreme inference" you do not show the fallacy of the inferences, or that they are inferences at all.

As I said, I will not continue to re-address the same arguments. Everything you have tried to use to support your doctrines has been addressed.

Now, as I asked before, please address this:


Acts 26:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


SHow why this does not teach that Christ was the First to be raised from the dead. Again, we know it doesn't refer simply to physical resurrection, because He Himself raised people from the dead. The context refers to the Resurrection unto Life (the First Resurrection...the resurrection unto damnation being the Second (death)).

Then we will see who is seen to...

contradict scripture then call scripture "contrary to scripture"

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

First, the Mystery of both the Rapture and the Gospel of Christ was not "unfolded over time,

Yes it was.

1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow


Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Darrell your argument is "with the text"

 

[BobRyan]

Now, as I asked before, please address this:

Acts 26:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Are you "reading" what you just quoted???

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

It is OT Gospel that is being preached!!


22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

It does not say Christ was the first person to rise from the dead -- this has already been pointed out to you.

 

[BobRyan]

Darrell C said: ↑
Just because Christ mentioned that men must be born again in John 3 doesn't mean men could.
.

A perfect illustration where we will "differ" -- every single time.

you are making nonsense of Christ's outright slam of Nicodemus in John 3 for not admitting to the truth Christ was highlighting.

The slam was because Nicodemus interjected a physical understanding to what Christ was saying, when He should have, even though he would have been expectant of a physical Kingdom (which was promised by God and will be fulfilled in its proper time and season (Acts 1:6-7)...

wrong.

read the actual text.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Christ's slam of Nicodemus in vs 10 is that he cannot pretend to be ignorant of this basic Gospel teaching because he is a Bible teacher in Israel and has to already know it.

this is pre-cross Gospel 101.

It does not get any easier than this.

Christ did not so "SO WILL everyone be who WILL be born of the Spirit some day in the FUTURE after the CROSS" as you appear to have much-imagined the text ..

Maintaining your distance from the text is not serving your argument well.

 

[BobRyan]

...should have immediately thought of Ezekiel 36...


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Are you even reading what you quote???

Ezek 36 is speaking of the pre-cross restoration of Israel out of Babylonian Captivity -

24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

It is Ezekiel's version of the Jer 31:31-33 NEW Covenant -- and it is PRE-CROSS

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

You are so busy denying the one Gospel that even when you pick it up and tell us to look at it - you still can't see it.

there is only so many times you can flat out contradict the very texts you quote and then "blame it on me" -- before we all start to notice.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes it was.

1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow

No Bob, neither the Gospel of Christ or the Rapture were revealed to men prior to the coming of the Spirit of Promise (the Comnforter).

That is an indisputable fact and the reason you will not address the first passage relating to the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ.

If you want to call the Prophecy given men in the Old Testament "unfolding over time," great. But you are never going to nullify the many passages which make it clear that they were not revealed to men prior to this Age.

The Writer of Hebrews makes it clear that his brethren, those under Law, were to progress from the basic teachings of Christ in the Hebrew Scriptures. In fact He charges them with being lazy and infantile in their understanding of the ABCs of Christ in the Old Testament:


Hebrews 5:10-6:3
King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.


Again we see the theme of perfection (completion) as it relates to the Knowledge of Christ. Strong meat belongs to those who are made complete, and his call to his Hebrew brethren is that they go on unto Perfection...

...not laying again that which is basic (knowledge of Christ as found in the Hebrew Scriptures) which he states...

"...you don't even know that!"

"Laying again" the foundational doctrines would have been accomplished by remaining under Law. Crucifying Christ to one's self again would have been offering up the sacrifices of the Law again, for they were a figure, a picture of the Sacrifice of Christ. But no-one in the Old Testament, not even the disciples of Christ...knew that. And the Writer is trying to make his brethren know that here.

You need to learn to distinguish between figure and fulfillment, spiritual and physical, temporal and eternal, and how all these issues are perceived by men within the framework of the Revelation each Age was afforded.

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Not a conflict, Resurrection and judgment were foundational principles in the Old Testament.

Darrell your argument is "with the text"

Not at all. You have yet to show the first conflict in my doctrine, and failed to even address a small portion of the Biblical Basis for that Doctrine.

Now, let's get back to...

Acts 26:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


Show why this does not teach that Christ was the First to be raised from the dead. Again, we know it doesn't refer simply to physical resurrection, because He Himself raised people from the dead. The context refers to the Resurrection unto Life (the First Resurrection...the resurrection unto damnation being the Second (death)).

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

No Bob, neither the Gospel of Christ or the Rapture were revealed to men prior to the coming of the Spirit of Promise (the Comnforter).

Yes it was.

1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow


Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Darrell your argument is "with the text"

Yes it was.

1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow


Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Darrell your argument is "with the text"

Could have added this as well.

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

as always your argument is "with the text"

That is an indisputable fact and the reason you will not address

 

[Darrell C]

Are you "reading" what you just quoted???

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

It is OT Gospel that is being preached!!

You are now interjecting the false argument that I have somehow implied that the Gospel cannot be seen in the Old Testament.

It can, but that does not equate to God revealing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to men prior to Pentecost.

As shown, this was not revealed even to the Disciples of Christ.

When we see a New Testament Writer or Apostle refer to the Old Testament testifying of something, it means that the Old Testament affirms what is now being taught. Moses prophesied of what was to come, but, part of the proof text you did not consider previously was the fact that the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven (the Comforter) is the one who reveals the Gospel to men:

First, the Mystery of both the Rapture and the Gospel of Christ was not "unfolded over time, it was revealed at a specific time in Scripture.

Yes it was.

1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow

Again the limitations of partial quotes is seen to cater to what you want to believe, now lets see the rest of the story:


1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


The NASB translates v.12 thus:

12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to


You're not going to change the fact that the Gospel was a Mystery not revealed to men in past Ages.

22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

It does not say Christ was the first person to rise from the dead

It does:


Acts 26:22-23
New International Version (NIV)

22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 26:22-23
New King James Version (NKJV)

22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 26:22-23
English Standard Version (ESV)

22 To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: 23 that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 26:22-23
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

22 To this day I have had help from God, and so I stand here, testifying to both small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would take place: 23 that the Messiah[a] must suffer, and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”


Acts 26:22-23
Lexham English Bible (LEB)

22 Therefore I have experienced help from God until this day, and[a] I stand here testifying to both small and great, saying nothing except what both the prophets and Moses have said were going to happen, 23 that the Christ was to suffer and that as the first of the resurrection from the dead, he was going to proclaim light both to the people and to the Gentiles.”


I can understand, though, why you would not want to see the correlation between this statement and these:


1 Corinthians 15:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


Colossians 1:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Revelation 1:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

this has already been pointed out to you.

As noted, reiterated arguments already addressed. As also noted...still erroneous.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Christ's slam of Nicodemus in vs 10 is that he cannot pretend to be ignorant of this basic Gospel teaching because he is a Bible teacher in Israel and has to already know it.

There's no Gospel in there, Bob. It is not until after He finishes His discourse on being born of God that He preaches the Gospel.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not simply "Men can be born of God," it is specific to His Death, burial, and Resurrection.

As already noted, the slam is that as a/The teacher of Israel...how he can possibly be attributing what Christ said to a physical event:


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.


Nicodemus "knows" Christ comes from God. There is no acknowledgement that He is God manifest in the flesh, simply a Prophet of God.


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


First, in view is being born of God. When Christ refers to water and the Spirit here He is speaking of the Gospel and God, but, Nicodemus is likely (like many men today) to think of foundational principles in regards to baptisms, rather than being baptized with the Holy Ghost. As mentioned before, Nicodemus should have correlated Old Testament prophecies related to one being "born again." Again, Ezekiel 36:24-27 is first on the list.

It would be like me saying "A prophet like Moses was prophesied to come," and you saying "yeah, Isaiah was a lot like Moses. The obvious reference is to Christ, not Isaiah, just as here the obvious reference was to the promises of God.

Nothing whatsoever with physical birth, because there is nothing in the Hebrew Scriptures even suggesting such. Nicodemus was not even close.

Christ will now make it clear that He is speaking of spiritual matters, not physical:


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Again, a statement to emphasize that He is speaking of spiritual matters. not physical.

Now let's look at your proof text, Bob, because you are improperly applying this to being born again, and having a knowledge of it:



9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


The question is...how can these things be? What is he asking "How can these things be" about?

What Christ is speaking about. Being born of God. Born again.

The primary statement is "A man cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven apart from being born again," and within the framework of what Nicodemus had revealed to Him in the Hebrew Scriptures the Promised Restored Kingdom has the only contextually consistent concept in view.

Secondly, Bob, Nicodemus states the exact opposite of what you are imposing in the text...

...he marvels at what Christ is saying.

Rather than the concept "Nicodemus should have, or could have...known what being born again actually meant."

What he should and could have known was that God was going to effect the restoration prophesied of.

The idea that "Men could be born again because Christ wouldn't have demanded it" isn't going to work, because as already pointed out...He also charged men to believe in Him, and no-one did.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

this is pre-cross Gospel 101.

No, the Pre-Cross Gospels follows His statement concerning being born again:


John 3:9-17
King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Again, let's look at Nicodemus' question, "How can these things be," or in other words, "How can these things come about?" He wants to know how that which Christ just taught can be effected, rather than imposing any kind of understanding in Nicodemus (which itself is impossible unless we make null and void the facts that the Gospel was not revealed at that time or in any other preceding Age to the one you and I are in).

Christ tells him, and it is the Gospel He preaches, though no man understands:


11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


Again, in the preceding statement, Christ rebukes Nicodemus for thinking in physical terms when what He is teaching is spiritual. Here He asks, "You mean you want Me to tell you how these spiritual matters can come about when you don't believe in regards to physical matters?

The point is not that men could not be made to understand spiritual things, for the Holy Ghost has always enlightened natural minds to spiritual matters.

The point is that Nicodemus is an unbeliever.

Nevertheless, Christ tells him how these things can come about, so pay attention, Bob, here we are going to see the Pre-Cross Gospel:


13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


And that, my friend, is how "these things can be."

And in just a moment I will show you Peter's confirmation that men are born again through Christ being lifted up, and nothing else, but, let's finish this passage:



16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Men are saved only through Christ, and men are born again, born of God, born of the Spirit...

Through Christ only:


1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


James 1:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


And that no man could be born again prior to Christ coming is made clear:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



John attributes being born of God to the same thing Christ does in John 6, through belief in Christ, and specifically in His Death, Burial, and Resurrection, which is how Christ and Paul and Peter define the very Gospel of Jesus Christ itself:


Matthew 16:20-21
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.


Acts 10:37-40
King James Version (KJV)

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;


1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)


15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

It does not get any easier than this.

I agree. Taking apart your arguments is really too easy, got any new arguments?

Christ did not so "SO WILL everyone be who WILL be born of the Spirit some day in the FUTURE after the CROSS" as you appear to have much-imagined the text ..

Correct, He simply says this is how men enter into the Kingdom, and this will be true both of the promised Restored Kingdom taught in both Old and New Testaments, as well as the Kingdom we are translated in when we are immersed into God, born again, and eternally redeemed.

Maintaining your distance from the text is not serving your argument well.

But Bob, only my view maintains a harmony in all the Scriptures we have looked at. My view that the Gospel was a Mystery previously unrevealed to all men in all Ages Past allows me to leave that teaching in Scripture as it is given, without jumping through hoops trying to impose false applications into the rest of Scripture, or...simply ignoring what the rest of Scripture teaches.

I don't have to rest on the translation of one verse when every other translation is identical, and only my one translation supports my view.

Really Bob, I feel bad you won't allow Scripture to speak to you on such simple matters. Show me the first person that believed in Christ as the Risen Lord prior to Pentecost (and you can include the disciples of Christ) and we will go from there on this matter.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Are you even reading what you quote???

Ezek 36 is speaking of the pre-cross restoration of Israel out of Babylonian Captivity -

24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

It is Ezekiel's version of the Jer 31:31-33 NEW Covenant -- and it is PRE-CROSS

Correct, the New Covenant is promised at this time, just as the Gospel is found throughout the Old Testament, but, the New Covenant was not given until Pentecost, and understanding of the Gospel was not either.

Its just a fact.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Already addressed.

You overlook the fact that this is prophetic and speaks of a future day:

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,


It didn't happen in that day, and wouldn't happen until Christ came to establish the New Covenant.

Its just a fact

You are so busy denying the one Gospel that even when you pick it up and tell us to look at it - you still can't see it.

I have never denied the Only Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have made it clear numerous times that it is only through Christ that men are saved on an eternal basis, because that is how Eternal Redemption was obtained, by His death. And it is only through His Resurrection (which obviously did not take place in the Old Testament) that we are born again. It is only through His Atonement that Reconciliation was effected. It was only through His Blood that the transgressions of the Law were redeemed, meaning, the Old Testament Saint died still bearing their debt to sin, and therefore still under the penalty of sin. Going to Sheol/Hades did not remove that.

The problem is that you are not able to embrace the teachings of the New Testament because your doctrine would be destroyed if you did.

Hence you cannot distinguish the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Will not, I should say, in favor of your own doctrine.

You also cannot understand that revelation is progressive, and while the Gospel was given in the Old Testament...the understanding of it was not. That's why its called Mystery, Bob.

there is only so many times you can flat out contradict the very texts you quote and then "blame it on me" -- before we all start to notice.

Believe me Bob, no-one is noticing you being consistent with Scripture.

And my hope is someone is noticing the irrefutable facts as laid out to you. I do not really expect you to admit that the belief system you have adopted is wrong. There is a similarity to Nicodemus' incredulity in regards to Christ's teaching, in that to think that we are wrong about some core beliefs is a hard pill to swallow.

My only hope is the Comforter bringing conviction upon you, and allowing you to recognize and acknowledge the simple truths being shown you.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes it was.

1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow

The sufferings of Christ were openly given to men, but, Bob...that is not the Mystery.

The mystery is that Christ would die to Atone for the sins of men.

Its all pretty clear in Isaiah 53...to us.

Not so for those who had not yet had the Gospel revealed to them.

Peter was told directly that Christ would die, and his response?


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Or in other words, "Peter, you have a physical desire rather than a spiritual. Earthly, not eternal.

And this after the disciples had revealed to them that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God:


Matthew 16:13-17
King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Peter's understanding was physical, and that is because the Gospel was not revealed to him. They knew Jesus was He that was prophesied to come, but, what would take place didn't fit with their theology, just as grasping the Gospel Mystery does not fit with your understanding or System of Theology.

Knowing what you know, Bob, if you could be transported back to that day, what would you have said to Peter when He said "Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee?"

The answer is it would probably go something like this: "Uh, Peter, this has to happen, or you have no chance of being reconciled to God and brought into eternal relationship with him, because Christ is going to die in your stead and pay your sin debt by going to the Cross."

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Darrell your argument is "with the text"

Not at all, as already addressed.

You are imposing false arguments such as implying I have said "The Gospel can't be found in the Old Testament Eras," when what I am saying is that understanding of the Gospel, because it was mystery in those Ages...cannot be found."

You are imposing error into both what I say and what Scripture states.

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

as always your argument is "with the text"

First, this is post-Cross.

Secondly, Christ is showing them what they do not know, where, and why Scripture spoke of Him.

Third, and probably most relevant, this actually shows that they simply do not understand Christ's death at this point. Because it was not revealed to them.

Fourth, I have spent quite a bit of time supporting the Biblical Fact that the disciples not only weren't believing the Gospel prior to Christ's death, but they were not believing when He arose again.

Again, since you have not responded to this point, I will psot one passage that makes that clear:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


I will not again post from Luke where we see also that the disciples were unbelieving.

It is a little tiresome to have to repeatedly address the same arguments.

But, I will do that for you, Bob.

That is an indisputable fact and the reason you will not address

Really Bob? lol

Do you seriously believe that anyone reading this thread will take the position...I have failed to respond to your arguments?

Multiple times? lol


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

The sufferings of Christ were openly given to men, but, Bob...that is not the Mystery.

The problem for your doctrine is that the "Gospel was preached to Abraham" before the cross Gal 3:8 and there is only "ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9.

That includes "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1.

Under that ONE Gospel - both Elijah and Moses stand WITH the sinless Christ "in glory" Matt 17, Luke 9... BEFORE the cross.

You have made these Bible statements a "no go" for your doctrine on OSAS.

The mystery is that Christ would die to Atone for the sins of men.

Its all pretty clear in Isaiah 53...to us.

Luke 24 - Christ said this is the teaching of the OT - just as Isaiah 53 says it.


1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

1 Cor 10 "They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that Rock was CHRIST" - they were Christians.

The "gospel was preached to us just as it was TO THEM ALSO" Hebrews 4:2

"Abraham long to see My day - he saw it and was glad" John 8

Acts 17
2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.”

Acts 26
22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

so real a Gospel preached in the OT that Moses and Elijah stand with Christ -- the sinless Christ - in glory -- before the cross.

Luke 9:29-31
"29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. "


Luke 24
“Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.


you said "One would be flesh and blood inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven."
Jesus said " a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Enoch, Elijah, Moses would be every bit as physical --- no problem at all there unless you do not agree with bodily resurrection of Christ and the saints.

 

[Darrell C]

I wish somebody would convince the devil that OSAS is biblical, if you could then maybe he would leave me alone. LOL

It wouldn't matter, PastorCWB, because even if the devil wasn't around (as will be the case in the Millennial Kingdom), you have enough in your fallen nature (which, though saved, you still abide in, and will have to deal with the weakness of the flesh) to keep you busy in regards to temptation and sin.

Few questions I have concerning the OSAS doctrine:

• if you are a Christian, does the devil fight or tempt you?

I think it a bit of caricature view that Satan is responsible for everything bad that happens in the lives of believers. Just the very fact that we still remain in fallen flesh (which will only end when we die or are raptured) and live in a fallen world with a majority of men unregenerate (who not only sin but cause others to suffer the consequences of their sin) should keep things in perspective for us.

Then, lets discuss our own sin, and the consequences of our own actions.

No, the devil seldom makes anyone "do it," we need to give credit where credit is due.

if so, WHY? if the devil believed OSAS would he waste his time?

What the devil believes has never, ever...impacted the truth. Quite the opposite, he tries to pervert the truth. That is why he is called the father of lies.

When we stay immersed in the Word of God and continue to understand better I promise you our lives will be impacted by that truth we immerse ourselves in.

So bottom line is we do not grade truth based on what anyone thinks (much less the devil, lol), but based solely on what we can trust, which is the Word of God itself.

John 10 clearly says the he has come to "steal, kill, and destroy"

This is true, but it has no impact on the truths of Scripture, and in no way diminishes the verity of Eternal Salvation.

if you believe OSAS, what is the purpose of the devil?

There is no relevance. I believe in Eternal Security (OSAS) because that is what Scripture teaches, and I do not have to ascribe any more purpose to the devil than I do to any other sinner who negatively impacts the world and brings about consequences for others.

But welcome to the thread, PastorCWB, glad to have you on board. I will ask you to address the statement of this verse...


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


...as an introductory passage concerning Eternal Security. It is the one I started with, and you can read the thread to see why I believe this to be the most indisputable statement of Eternal Security in Scripture, though, sadly, men should take the numerous statements of Christ first and foremost, as He in many places makes it clear that salvation through Him is the bestowal of Eternal Life through Eternal Union with God, brought about through the REconciliation God was in Christ to effect.

But let's start here, if you are willing.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The problem for your doctrine is that the "Gospel was preached to Abraham" before the cross Gal 3:8 and there is only "ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9.

That includes "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1 Peter 1.

Under that ONE Gospel - both Elijah and Moses stand WITH the sinless Christ "in glory" Matt 17, Luke 9... BEFORE the cross.

You have made these Bible statements a "no go" for your doctrine on OSAS.



Luke 24 - Christ said this is the teaching of the OT - just as Isaiah 53 says it.


1 Peter 1: 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

1 Cor 10 "They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that Rock was CHRIST" - they were Christians.

The "gospel was preached to us just as it was TO THEM ALSO" Hebrews 4:2

"Abraham long to see My day - he saw it and was glad" John 8

Acts 17
2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.”

Acts 26
22 So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; 23 that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

so real a Gospel preached in the OT that Moses and Elijah stand with Christ -- the sinless Christ - in glory -- before the cross.

Luke 9:29-31
"29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. 30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, 31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. "


Luke 24
“Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.


you said "One would be flesh and blood inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven."
Jesus said " a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Enoch, Elijah, Moses would be every bit as physical --- no problem at all there unless you do not agree with bodily resurrection of Christ and the saints.

Okay, Bob, the thread is about at an end, so I won't be addressing the same arguments again and using up the few remaining pages. I might suggest rereading the thread, for you can find my responses on all these proof texts already covered.

I have enjoyed the discussion, though, and appreciate your time in the thread.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

.
Peter's understanding was physical, and that is because the Gospel was not revealed to him. They knew Jesus was He that was prophesied to come, but, what would take place didn't fit with their theology, just as grasping the Gospel Mystery does not fit with your understanding or System of Theology.

Knowing what you know, Bob, if you could be transported back to that day, what would you have said to Peter when He said "Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee?"

The answer is it would probably go something like this: "Uh, Peter, this has to happen, or you have no chance of being reconciled to God and brought into eternal relationship with him, because Christ is going to die in your stead and pay your sin debt by going to the Cross."
.

You blame the Gospel -- but in Matthew 16 -- Christ blames Peter.

22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.

you condemn Christ's preaching of the Gospel to Peter - Christ condemns Peter.

Christ does not condemn scripture or the authors of scripture in the OT for failing to tell the truth -- he condemns the disciples who were befuddled by man-mad-tradition into not believing clear teaching of scripture.

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

Okay, Bob, the thread is about at an end, so I won't be addressing the same arguments again and using up the few remaining pages. I might suggest rereading the thread, for you can find my responses on all these proof texts already covered.

I have enjoyed the discussion, though, and appreciate your time in the thread.
God bless.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss the topic and clarify our positions - I don't require that we agree on all points - just that the gaps be identified and positions clear on where differences actually exist.

Thanks for the discussion.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I wish somebody would convince the devil that OSAS is biblical, if you could then maybe he would leave me alone. LOL

The devil has never been one to "endorse all that is Biblical" --- rather unbiblical doctrine is his domain and OSAS is one of his games.

Few questions I have concerning the OSAS doctrine:

• if you are a Christian, does the devil fight or tempt you?
• if so, WHY? if the devil believed OSAS would he waste his time?

John 10 clearly says the he has come to "steal, kill, and destroy"

if you believe OSAS, what is the purpose of the devil?

This is a good point - clearly the devil knows that OSAS is a false hope -- and has stolen many a Christian right through the supposedly impregnable barrier of OSAS.

In Job 1 - the devil admits to an impossible barrier that God had to remove... but it was the barrier of physical restraint -- the devil argued that Job Could and WOULD apostatize if given the proper incentive... God did not argue that this was "impossible" rather God argues that Job would stand firm. Not that He had so zappped Job that robot-Job had no other choice.


OSAS does not survive the Bible details
in Matthew 18 where we see "forgiveness revoked"
does not survive the Bible details in Romans 11 where we see 'salvation revoked"
Does not survive the Bible details in John 15 where those 'in Christ" are cut off and burned up.
Does not survive the Bible details in Ezek 18 where we see forgiveness revoked.
Does not surive the Bible details in Ephesians 6 where we see salvation revoked

Does not survive Paul's statement in 1 Cor 9 - "LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it"

Does not survive Romans 2:13

Does not survive Romans 2:4-9

Does not survive the details of Gal 4 "I fear I have labored over you in vain"

These are not just "so many Bible texts to be ignored" --

 

[Darrell C]

You blame the Gospel -- but in Matthew 16 -- Christ blames Peter.

This is a false argument. Again.

The sufferings of Christ were openly given to men, but, Bob...that is not the Mystery.

The mystery is that Christ would die to Atone for the sins of men.

Its all pretty clear in Isaiah 53...to us.

Not so for those who had not yet had the Gospel revealed to them.

Peter was told directly that Christ would die, and his response?


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Or in other words, "Peter, you have a physical desire rather than a spiritual. Earthly, not eternal.

How is showing Peter's desire was carnal, earthly, temporal...

...blaming the Gospel?

And how can one "blame something" because it has not been revealed to man that he might have understanding? Do you think I "blame the Rapture" because that was a mystery as well?"

22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.

you condemn Christ's preaching of the Gospel to Peter - Christ condemns Peter.

So did I. lol

Christ does not condemn scripture or the authors of scripture in the OT for failing to tell the truth -- he condemns the disciples who were befuddled by man-mad-tradition into not believing clear teaching of scripture.

Again, a false argument, I did not blame Scripture or the Writers (not authors).

And I would disagree that they were embracing "man-made tradition," because they were right to believe that when Christ came He would establish a physical Kingdom. That's still going to happen, the problem being, it was not known to men that Christ would come...twice.

Again...Mystery.

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

As I said, still the same arguments already addressed:

BobRyan said: ↑
Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

as always your argument is "with the text"

First, this is post-Cross.

Secondly, Christ is showing them what they do not know, where, and why Scripture spoke of Him.

Third, and probably most relevant, this actually shows that they simply do not understand Christ's death at this point. Because it was not revealed to them.

Fourth, I have spent quite a bit of time supporting the Biblical Fact that the disciples not only weren't believing the Gospel prior to Christ's death, but they were not believing when He arose again.

Again, since you have not responded to this point, I will psot one passage that makes that clear:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.