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Sola Scriptura

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Matt Black

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One man's opinion about his enemies. Broad generalizations about many independent congregations. Sorry, but I don't give much stock to Roman Catholic hearsay.

Again, find me any STATE CHURCH in the New Testament other than the Great Whore? Augustine was the theological founder of the Catholic church and Constantine was its secular founder. The Great Harlot commits fornicaiton (illicit union) with governments of the world and rides upon their back (supporting her). She is the mother of all other "Christian" STATE CHURCHES.
You are missing the point and trying to change the subject in one post, but two points in reply:

1. The Catholic Church is not a 'state church'. It controls no state and no state controls it.

2. I restate the point you are trying to dodge: if the Donatists had been congregationalists then Augustine would surely have mentioned this; he was a pretty meticulous kind of guy. But he didn't. Furthermore, contrary to your contention, there is a letter of the Donatist bishops to Constantine which has been preserved. So they weren't Baptists. Can we now drop this ridiculous pretence that they were? I would recommend for further reading Maureen A Tilley's Sustaining Donatist Identities, which refers to several Donatists documents.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You are missing the point and trying to change the subject in one post, but two points in reply:

1. The Catholic Church is not a 'state church'. It controls no state and no state controls it.
That depends what country you are considering. I am sure it is the state church in some of the nations in South America.

To make the point he is making the "Church of England" is indeed the state church of England, isn 't it?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
DHK, you wrote: "I didn't say that. We have had a Bible Institute connected with our church. From our church we have had a number of pastors go out and establish churches. Churches in the NT were no doubt self-propagating. That is what they are taught to be on the mission field. That is what Paul taught Timothy:

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:2)
--It is called "spiritual reproduction," and it is at the heart of missions.
Sorry to inform you , but you're chasing your tail again. Jesus [ Remember Him , His Words are the most Powerful and most Authorative for Christians ,not those of John the Baptist ] And Jesus never told John the Baptist or any other "baptist" the following words :
"Jesus said to Simon Peter, " Feed my lambs .... feed my lambs ... feed my sheep " [ Luke 21: 15- 17 ]
Where did Paul get his authority from: God or the Apostles?
Who started more churches? Peter or Paul?
Do you have any evidence that Peter was ever in Rome? No.
And again I have to keep re minding you baptists that Jesus only told this to His Apostles [ not a baptist amongst them ] The "Words " of Jesus are as following: " He who hears you, hears me : and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me , rejects him who sent me" [ Luke 10:16 ].
As he gave those commands to his disciples so we apply them to each and every Christian who believes the Bible. The Bible is a timeless book.
Only the Catholic/Apostolic Church can trace their religious lineage directly back to Jesus and His apostles through apostolic succession.
The RCC did not come into existence until the 4th century.
There is no evidence that Peter ever was in Rome. None whatsoever.
You are living a lie.
 

Matt Black

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But in none of these countries are bishops appointed by the secular authorities, so they cannot be said to be 'state churches'.
 

The Biblicist

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You are missing the point and trying to change the subject in one post, but two points in reply:

1. The Catholic Church is not a 'state church'. It controls no state and no state controls it.

Vatican city is not a city state? The vatican does not have ambassadors with various governments of the earth? The Roman Catholic Religion has not been the STATE CHURCH from Constantine forward and in many other countries of the world???? Do you really expect anyone to believe this??????????????????

There is no such thing as Roman Catholocism before Constantine.

2. I restate the point you are trying to dodge: if the Donatists had been congregationalists then Augustine would surely have mentioned this; he was a pretty meticulous kind of guy. But he didn't. Furthermore, contrary to your contention, there is a letter of the Donatist bishops to Constantine which has been preserved. So they weren't Baptists. Can we now drop this ridiculous pretence that they were? I would recommend for further reading Maureen A Tilley's Sustaining Donatist Identities, which refers to several Donatists documents.

I am not trying to doge anything. I have already told you many times over that I do not regard the ECF as reputable history. The Montanist, Novations and Donatists were large movements which never united under one confession of faith. There was much diversity among them. The hearsays of Augustine are no more trustworthy than any other portion of the ECF's.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Concerning the Donatists:
The Donatists arose in Numidia, in the year 311, and they soon extended over Africa. They taught that the church should be a holy body. Crespin, a French historian, says that they held the following views:

First, for purity of church members, by asserting that none ought to be admitted into the church but such as are visibly true believers and true saints. Secondly, for purity of church discipline. Thirdly, for the independency of each church. Fourthly, they baptized again those whose first baptism they had reason to doubt. They were consequently termed rebaptizers and Anabaptists.
In his early historical writings David Benedict, the Baptist historian, wrote with much caution of the denominational character of the Donatists. He followed closely the statements of other writers in his history; but in his last days he went into the original sources and produced a remarkable book called a "History of the Donatists" (Pawtucket, 1875). In that book he recedes from his noncommittal position and classes them as Baptists. He quite freely shows from Augustine and Optatus, who were contemporaries, that the Donatists rejected infant baptism and were congregational in their form of government.

Dr. Heman Lincoln dissented from some of the conclusions of Dr. Benedict and called them fanciful. But that they held some Baptist principles he did not doubt. He says:

It is evident that the Donatists held, at some period of their history, many of the principles which are regarded as axioms by modern Baptists. In their later history, after a stern discipline of persecution, they maintained, as cardinal truths, absolute freedom of conscience, the divorce of church and state, and a regenerate church membership. These principles, in whose defense they endured martyrdom coupled with their uniform practice of immersion, bring them into close affinity with Baptists (Lincoln, The Donatists. In The Baptist Review, p. 358, July, 1880).

This is the position of an extreme conservative. Perhaps Dr. Lincoln underestimated the coloring which the enemies of the Donatists gave to the controversy, and he certainly did not give due credit to what Augustine says on infant baptism in his opposition to them. It has been affirmed that some of the Donatists placed too much stress upon the efficiency of baptism and affirmed episcopacy. This however is a matter of controversy of no great interest, and does not here concern us.

Governor Henry D’Anvers truly remarks:
Augustine’s third and fourth books against the Donatists demonstrated that they denied Infant baptism, wherein he maintained the argument for Infant baptism against them with great zeal, enforcing it with severe arguments (D’Anvers, A Treatise on Baptism. 223, London, 1674).
Augustine makes the Donatists Anabaptists (Migne, Patrologis Lat., XLII.). The form of baptism, according to Optatus, was immersion. Lucas Osiander, Professor in and Chancellor of the University of Tubingen, wrote a book against the Anabaptists, in 1605, in which he says: "Our modern Anabaptists are the same as the Donatists of old" (Osiander, Epist cent 16. p.175. Wittenberg, 1607). These rigid moralists, however, did not count themselves Anabaptists; for they thought that there was one Lord, one faith, one baptism and that their own (Albaspinae, Observat. In Optatus, i). They took no account of the baptism of others, and contended that they were wrongly called Anabaptists.

The Donatists stood for liberty of conscience, and they were opposed to the persecuting power of the State Church, They were, says Neander, "the most important and influential church division which we have to mention in this period" (Neander, General History of the Christian Religion and Church, III. 258). Neander continues:

That which distinguishes the present case is, the reaction, proceeding out of the essence of the Christian church, and called forth, in this instance, by a peculiar occasion, against the confounding of the ecclesiastical end political elements; on which occasion, for the first time, the ideas which Christianity, as opposed to the papal religion of the state, had first made men distinctly conscious of, became an object of contention within the Christian church itself,—the ideas concerning universal, inalienable human rights; concerning liberty of conscience; concerning the rights of free religious conviction.

Thus the Bishop Donatus, of Carthage, in 347, rejected the imperial commissioners, Paulus and Marcarius, with the acclamation: "Quid est imperatori cum eccleaia?" (Optatus, Milev., De Schismati Donat. 1. iii. c. 3). And truly indeed the emperor should not have had anything to do with the control of the church. The Donatist Bishop Petilian, in Africa, against whom Augustine wrote, appealed to Christ and the apostles who never persecuted. "Think you," says he, "to serve God by killing us with your hand? Ye err, if ye, poor mortals, think this; God has not hangmen for priests. Christ teaches us to bear wrong, not to revenge it," The Donatist bishop Gaudentius says: "God appointed prophets and fishermen, not princes and soldiers, to spread the faith."

The position of these Christians was not only a protest but an appeal. It was a protest against the growing corruptions and worldliness of those churches which had sadly departed from the faith in doctrine and discipline; it was an appeal, since they were fervently called back to purity of life and apostolic simplicity. All through the days of darkness their voice was not hushed, and there was not wanting a people to stand before God. Maligned, they suffered with patience; reviled, they reviled not; and the heritage of these people is liberty of conscience to a world. All hail, martyrs of God.
http://www.pbministries.org/History/John T. Christian/vol1/history_03.htm


Martyrs, yes. Heretics, no.
 

Matt Black

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OK, Vatican City I'll give you, much power that that has. ISTM that for you 'trustworthy' = 'people who agree with me'. Not impressed.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
OK, Vatican City I'll give you, much power that that has. ISTM that for you 'trustworthy' = 'people who agree with me'. Not impressed.

It is hard for me to any anyone seriously who contends the Roman Catholic Church did not begin previous to Constantine. Already at the end of the 1st Century Ignatius refers to the Catholic Church. Mid 2nd and 3rd centuries we have distinct catholic writers by which I mean people espousing Catholic Doctrine. Justin Martyr states the belief in the Eucharist and the real presence through a transformative process. Ireneaus maintains a line of apostolic Succession from Peter. Tertullian coins Trinity. The Didache (50 -55 AD) shows liturgica worship as does Hyppolytas (235). I could go on however the point made distinctly Catholic beliefs are established well before Constantine. Previous to Constantine bishops met to discussion issues. All Constantine really did was provide for the eddict of Milan indicating that Christians were now accepted by empire, the previous practice of accusation, robbery of property, and execution were now replaced by a tollerant empire. No longer would Christians perish just because they were Christian. So long before Constantine there are distinct catholic doctrine. People were calling themselves Catholic. And Theodocius is guilty of Making Christianity the official religion of Empire not Constantine. Any serious student of history knows this.
 

Matt Black

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Indeed. One might add in the division between ordained clergy and laity that is both remarked upon and reinforced by Cyprian of Carthage in the 250s AD (ie: 60 years or so before Constantine's toleration of Christianity).

The Catholic Church began waaaay before Constantine.
 

The Biblicist

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It is hard for me to any anyone seriously who contends the Roman Catholic Church did not begin previous to Constantine. Already at the end of the 1st Century Ignatius refers to the Catholic Church. Mid 2nd and 3rd centuries we have distinct catholic writers by which I mean people espousing Catholic Doctrine. Justin Martyr states the belief in the Eucharist and the real presence through a transformative process. Ireneaus maintains a line of apostolic Succession from Peter. Tertullian coins Trinity. The Didache (50 -55 AD) shows liturgica worship as does Hyppolytas (235). I could go on however the point made distinctly Catholic beliefs are established well before Constantine. Previous to Constantine bishops met to discussion issues. All Constantine really did was provide for the eddict of Milan indicating that Christians were now accepted by empire, the previous practice of accusation, robbery of property, and execution were now replaced by a tollerant empire. No longer would Christians perish just because they were Christian. So long before Constantine there are distinct catholic doctrine. People were calling themselves Catholic. And Theodocius is guilty of Making Christianity the official religion of Empire not Constantine. Any serious student of history knows this.

Factually, there is absolutely no mention of the "Roman" Catholic Church in the period you speak of! There is only the "Catholic" church and every individual church was identified as such by some writers. Hence, there was the Ephesian Catholic Church and the Jerusalem Catholic Church which were equal IN AUTHORITY with the Roman Catholic Church as no single Bishop or congregation was recognized as having authority over the rest. The dominance of Rome was gradual.

Moreover, the USAGE of the term "catholic" was not the same usage later developed by Rome. Usage not etymology determines meaning and the usage of "catholic" in the first and second century differed.
 

The Biblicist

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The Bottom line is that secular uninspired, often contradictive, biased personal perspectives collected by Rome are not comphrensively sufficient to either deny or assert the true state of Christianity world wide in the first three centuries.

The Bottom line is that the Scriptures alone should be the determining factor of what is and what is not orthodox Christianity.

The Bottom line is that advocates for Rome MUST reverse this order and make tradition the final decisive factor to define what is and what is not orthodox Christianity in order to be credible. If the Scriptures are final authority then Rome is clearly apostate and her well preserved history simply the careful selective preservation of the history of apostasy.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Factually, there is absolutely no mention of the "Roman" Catholic Church in the period you speak of! There is only the "Catholic" church
You say PotAto and I say POtato. The fact is all orthodox chruches referenced themselves as Catholic Churches Irenaeus shows the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. By listing Succession of Peter and Paul straight to the Bishop of Rome. Note in all the Documents (legal) the Catholic Church doesn't refer to itself as Roman but Catholic. As in
APOSTOLIC LETTER
LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE

IN WHICH THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

IS APPROVED AND PROMULGATED
The Roman Moniker was applied long after to distinguish between Eastern Rite Catholics and Western Rite Catholics. And more often used by Protestants as a slur.
and every individual church was identified as such by some writers. Hence, there was the Ephesian Catholic Church and the Jerusalem Catholic Church which were equal IN AUTHORITY with the Roman Catholic Church
You obviously don't know your history as you have demonstrated. They Were Catholic as in Orthodox apart from Gnostic, Donatist, etc...
as no single Bishop or congregation was recognized as having authority over the rest.
You obviously haven't read Irenaeus.
The dominance of Rome was gradual.
This is actually true but not in the sense you mean it. More and More responsibility fell to the Bishop of Rome as thing progressed. Until when Rome fell all that held the west together secularily as well as spiritually was the Bishop in Rome.

Moreover, the USAGE of the term "catholic" was not the same usage later developed by Rome.
This is laughable!!!! it has always ment universal. Even now it means universal. You're obviously making things up.
 

Matt Black

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Factually, there is absolutely no mention of the "Roman" Catholic Church in the period you speak of! There is only the "Catholic" church and every individual church was identified as such by some writers. Hence, there was the Ephesian Catholic Church and the Jerusalem Catholic Church which were equal IN AUTHORITY with the Roman Catholic Church as no single Bishop or congregation was recognized as having authority over the rest. The dominance of Rome was gradual.

Moreover, the USAGE of the term "catholic" was not the same usage later developed by Rome. Usage not etymology determines meaning and the usage of "catholic" in the first and second century differed.
Oh, I think that Ignatius of Antioch uses the term 'Catholic Church' in much the same way as its later usage eg: in his Letter to the Smyrneans he refers to 'the Catholic Church' [singular] as being 'wherever the bishop is'. The bishop therefore has already emerged by this point (c 110AD) as the focal point of unity within the Church.
 

The Biblicist

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You obviously don't know your history as you have demonstrated. They Were Catholic as in Orthodox apart from Gnostic, Donatist, etc... This is laughable!!!! it has always ment universal. Even now it means universal. You're obviously making things up.

They were "Catholic AS IN..." and yet Catholic "always means universal"?

No one is confused about the etymological meaning of the term "Catholic" which you shewdly confuse with usage even though in your former statement you admit to another meaning in regard to usage "They were Catholic AS IN...ORTHODOX apart from....."

Exactly! They were "catholic AS IN" INCLUSIVE (all ethnic groups) of what Judaism EXCLUDES (all but one ethnic group).

So what is laughable is your own contradiction. Again, etymology is not the issue is it?
 

The Biblicist

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You say PotAto and I say POtato. The fact is all orthodox chruches referenced themselves as Catholic Churches Irenaeus shows the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. By listing Succession of Peter and Paul straight to the Bishop of Rome.

You need to read your own history a little better. Irenaeus never intended anything more than some Landmarkers intend when they give a link by link history of a particular congregation back to the apostles to prove the apostolic origin for all their congregations. The Landmarker is not indicating that this one particular congregation has authority over all the rest. He is not indicating that the Bishop of that one congregation has a position of authoriy over all other bishops in all other congregations. That is not only pure unfounded presumption on your part but complete ignorance of your own uninspired history. The ecclesiastical heirarchy of Rome was of a much later date.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
You need to read your own history a little better. Irenaeus never intended anything more than some Landmarkers intend when they give a link by link history of a particular congregation back to the apostles to prove the apostolic origin for all their congregations. The Landmarker is not indicating that this one particular congregation has authority over all the rest. He is not indicating that the Bishop of that one congregation has a position of authoriy over all other bishops in all other congregations. That is not only pure unfounded presumption on your part but complete ignorance of your own uninspired history. The ecclesiastical heirarchy of Rome was of a much later date.
You are so wrong. Not only do I know my history. I've read the Early Church Fathers through and through. For instance from Irenaeus let us be clear. He said specifically
Therefore we will refute those who hold unauthorized assemblies--either because of false self importance, or pride, or blindness and perversity--by pointing to the tradition of the greatest and oldest church, a church known to all men, which was founded and established at Rome by the most renouwned Apostles Peter and Paul. this tradition the church has from the Apostles, and this faith has been proclaimed to all men, and has come down to our own day through the succession of bishops. for thsi church has a position of leadership and authority; and therefore every church, that is, the faithful everywhere, must needs agree with the church at Rome; for in her the apostolic tradition has ever been preserved byu the faithful from all parts of the world.
this is more than land markers as you put it. It is very clear.
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
This has been an interesting thread, and there's a lot I could say about the relationship between Church, Scripture and Tradition. But time's short, so I'll make a comment on the issue of Roman primacy. Thinkingstuff quoted Irenaeus to demonstrate that Rome wasn't just like any other congregation:

Therefore we will refute those who hold unauthorized assemblies--either because of false self importance, or pride, or blindness and perversity--by pointing to the tradition of the greatest and oldest church, a church known to all men, which was founded and established at Rome by the most renouwned Apostles Peter and Paul. this tradition the church has from the Apostles, and this faith has been proclaimed to all men, and has come down to our own day through the succession of bishops. for thsi church has a position of leadership and authority; and therefore every church, that is, the faithful everywhere, must needs agree with the church at Rome; for in her the apostolic tradition has ever been preserved byu the faithful from all parts of the world.

This quote shows that the Roman church certainly had a primacy of sorts, but looking carefully at his words, this primacy doesn't necessarily entail the same kind of things modern day RCC apologist suppose. Note first that Ireanaeus points to the dual role of Peter and Paul in 'founding' the church without singling out Peter as the alleged sole vicar of Christ. Also, note that the reason given for other churches to agree with Rome is not due to some alleged supremacy of the Roman BISHOP let alone for an alleged charism of infalliblity given to the same, but because at Rome "the apostolic tradition has been ever preserved by the faithful from all parts of the world." Rome had a strong reputation because of the roles of two chief apostles in forming/shaping that church in the capital of the empire and the orthodoxy that was well maintained there by faithful believers from "all parts of the world". Nothing in Irenaeus's statement suggests that such an orthodox maintenance of apostolic tradition would always exist by divine charism into perpetuity, but Rome was definitely looked to at that time as a standard of orthodoxy (for the reasons Ireneaus gave). Indeed, for the first 4-5 centuries the Roman church was generally on the right side of the issues that were debated in ecumenical councils (with perhaps very few exceptions), but this doesn't prove papal supremacy or papal infallibility...though I don't think anyone was actually making those particular arguments here. :smilewinkgrin:
 
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