Sola Scriptura

[The Biblicist]

Paul, Barnabas, and James all reinforced and agreed with Peter’s declaration, albeit in different ways. The first two related “the signs and wonders God” had been working “among the Gentiles” (v. 12). James pointed first to the words of Peter and then to the Prophets (vs. 14-15). Those who claim James’s speech was the definitive one point to the language in verse 19 (“Therefore it is my judgement . . .”) as evidence for James’s primacy. Yet James is simply suggesting a way of implementing what Peter had already definitively expressed. “Peter speaks as the head and spokesman of the apostolic Church,” He formulates a doctrinal judgment about the means of salvation, whereas James takes the floor after him to suggest a pastoral plan for inculturating the gospel in mixed communities where Jewish and Gentile believers live side by side (15:13-21).

You are correcting the Holy Spirit's language and revising it to read, "My SUGGESTION is" instead of "My SENTENCE (krino) is"??????

Can you find anywhere in Scripture were the Greek term "krino" means suggestion?

Here is a classic example of how Rome treats God's Word and how they treat history. They simply revise it to suit their dogmas.

 

[lakeside]

Biblicist,here is one incontrovertible fact. In Acts 10, God revealed to Peter—not James—that Gentiles as well as Jews could be received into the Church. Even if there is some confusion from a human perspective about who was leader of the Church, from God’s perspective there is none: He revealed it to Peter. Only afterward did the other apostles, including Paul and—reluc*tantly, it seems, James—begin preaching to Gentiles.

Jesus said to Peter,not James or Paul ; "Feed my lambs... feed my lambs... feed my sheep' John 21:15-17 - Not once but "three'' times.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist,here is one incontrovertible fact. In Acts 10, God revealed to Peter—not James—that Gentiles as well as Jews could be received into the Church. Even if there is some confusion from a human perspective about who was leader of the Church, from God’s perspective there is none: He revealed it to Peter. Only afterward did the other apostles, including Paul and—reluc*tantly, it seems, James—begin preaching to Gentiles.

Jesus said to Peter,not James or Paul ; "Feed my lambs... feed my lambs... feed my sheep' John 21:15-17 - Not once but "three'' times.

You cannot deal with the evidence and so you jump to another text and pit scripture against scripture.

No one denies that Peter led the church at least from Acts 1 to Acts 5 as its Pastor. However, James clearly was the leader of the church at Jerusalem prior to Acts 15. Probably earlier than Acts 10 as Peter was called in by some church members to defend his actions.

Acts 15 absolutely destroys the whole Papal doctrine.

 

[lakeside]

You cannot deal with the evidence and so you jump to another text and pit scripture against scripture.

No one denies that Peter led the church at least from Acts 1 to Acts 5 as its Pastor. However, James clearly was the leader of the church at Jerusalem prior to Acts 15. Probably earlier than Acts 10 as Peter was called in by some church members to defend his actions.

Acts 15 absolutely destroys the whole Papal doctrine.

Biblicist, only in your anti-Catholic mind.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, only in your anti-Catholic mind.

Then why can't you deal with Acts 15 and the statement "This is my SENTENCE" other than changing God's Word to suit whats in your mind????? Please give me Biblical support for the Greek term "krino" to mean "suggestion"? That is the term translated "sentence" and it means the "sentence" passed by a judge and a judge is one who sits over a court and pronounces the final "sentence."

 

[lakeside]

It is explained in your other post called 'The Papal State & Vatican City'

 

[The Biblicist]

It is explained in your other post called 'The Papal State & Vatican City'

Look at post #218

 

[DHK]

It is explained in your other post called 'The Papal State & Vatican City'

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (Acts 15:19)

Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God; (Acts 15:19) ASV

Wherefore *I* judge, not to trouble those who from the nations turn to God; (Acts 15:19) Darby

"Therefore my judgment is that we don't trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, (Acts 15:19) WEB

wherefore I judge: not to trouble those who from the nations do turn back to God, (Acts 15:19) Young's Literal

The meaning of the word is clear. James, the pastor of the church at Jerusalem, gave the final judgment of the matter. He had the authority over and above all the other apostles simply because he was the pastor of the local church of Jerusalem.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is explained in your other post called 'The Papal State & Vatican City'

The Jerusalem Council began with a spirited debate (v. 7a). Then Peter spoke, appealing to the “early days” and his experience in bringing the gospel to the household of Cornelius, a Gentile (Acts 10). We are saved by grace, Peter stated, not by works of the Law (v. 11). A marked silence followed his speech (v. 12a). Then Barnabas and Paul testified to God’s work “among the Gentiles” (v. 12b). After they had finished, James gave his speech, pointing to both the words of Peter (“Simeon,” v. 14) and the Prophets (vs. 15-18). He then offered his “judgment”: the Gentiles would not have to observe the ceremonial Law. An authoritative letter was then written, stating “it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and us to lay upon you no greater burden” than abstaining from “things sacrificed to idols,” from blood and things strangled, and “from fornication” (vs. 28-29).

The argument presented here is that statements of Paul, Peter and James simply are a series of equal judgements.

However, neither Paul or Peter introduced their statements "wherefore my sentence is".

Secondly, the term "sentence" is only given after all witnesses and evidences are considered. Paul and Peter are witnesses before the jury (apostles, elders and whole church" at Jerusalem. James is the only one who gives a "sentence" or verdict in response to all the witnesses heard and/or evidences presented.

The judicial term "judgement" in such a context is something given only by the one presiding over a court hearing witnesses and examining evidences.

Finally, Peter should have had the final "sentence" if he was the Pope as this session included authorized representatives from the congregation at Antioch and the letter was designed for all congregations existent:

Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

In regard to all the congregations, it is James who has the final and decisive verdict not Peter.

 

[lakeside]

Click on this, it will solve the problems that i have difficulty in explaining—http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/03/50-new-testament-proofs-for-petrine.html

 

[The Biblicist]

Click on this, it will solve the problems that i have difficulty in explaining—http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/03/50-new-testament-proofs-for-petrine.html

This website presents a very superficial defense. These things have been addressed already. In fact, we have delved much deeper into these reasons and exposed them as false and/or misleading.

 

[lakeside]

The Art of Rhetoric in the Acts of the Apostles

The Acts of the Apostles contains two dozen speeches. Most were delivered either by Peter (eight of the first twelve) or by Paul (the majority of the rest). There also is a long speech from Stephen in chapter 7, and speeches by James and Philip. Several have co-presenters: John (along with Peter), and Barnabas (along with Paul, twice). Peter co-presents one of the speeches with the other apostles.

The audience included three different kinds of groups. 1) Many, like the first one, are addressed to a group who believes in Jesus. 2) Most of Peter’s speeches are addressed to a gathering of Jewish people or leaders in the Jewish community; Paul’s final speech also addressed a group of Jewish leaders. 3) The majority of Paul’s speeches are addressed to Gentiles and their leaders. They do not believe in God or in the personal God of the Hebrew tradition, and they typically have not heard the story of Jesus. In the speech that Peter delivers on the day of Pentecost (which is the first long speech in the text, and is perhaps the most famous of all the speeches in Acts), Peter addresses each of these groups. His audience is "all of you" (Acts 2:14).

Each speech shares a common aim: to persuade the various audiences to undertake a deeper participation in the life of faith.

Here is a list of the speeches in Acts:

1:16-22 Peter addresses 120 believers about replacing Judas.
2:14-41 Peter preaches in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.
3:12-26 Peter addresses a gathering in the Temple Court in Jerusalem after a miracle.
4:8-12 Peter and John speak about Jesus when questioned by the Sanhedrin.
5:29-32 Peter and the apostles give witness about Jesus before the Sanhedrin.
7:2-53 Stephen delivers a long defense to the Sanhedrin after he is accused of b.asphemy.
8:26-38 Philip preaches to the Ethiopian eunuch traveling on the road from Jerusalem to Gaza.
10:34-49 Peter preaches in Caesarea to the household of Cornelius, a Roman centurion.
11:5-17 Peter addresses the circumcised believers in Jerusalem.
13:16-41 Barnabas and Paul preach to the congregation assembled in the synagogue at Antioch.
14:15-17 Barnabas and Paul preach to a crowd of Gentiles about nature and God.
15:7-11 Peter addresses the Council of Jerusalem.
15:13-21 James delivers an address at the Council of Jerusalem.
16:30-34 Paul and Silas preach to their jailer and his family in Philippi.
17:22-34 Paul speaks rather philosophically to the people of Athens at the Areopagus.
19:1-7 Paul preaches about the Holy Spirit to some believers at Ephesus.
20:17-35 Paul gives a farewell speech at Miletus to the elders visiting from the Church of Ephesus.
21:20-25 James addresses Paul and the elders in Jerusalem.
22:1-21 Paul defends himself and his mission to a crowd in Jerusalem.
23:1-6 Paul defends himself before the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.
24:10-21 Paul defends himself before the governor Felix in Caesarea.
26:1-23 Paul defends himself before King Agrippa in Caesarea.
27:21-26 Paul speaks on a ship encouraging the passengers to remain courageous.
28:23-28 Paul addresses the Jewish leaders in Rome.

copied from 'Crossing the Tiber " by Stephen Ray, Mr. Ray was raised in a devout Baptist family and was a teacher of Biblical studies.After intensive study he followed into his Evangelical pastor footsteps into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. He and his entire family converted to Christ's Apostoli/Catholic Church on Pentecost Sunday in 1994.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Art of Rhetoric in the Acts of the Apostles

The Acts of the Apostles contains two dozen speeches. Most were delivered either by Peter (eight of the first twelve) or by Paul (the majority of the rest). There also is a long speech from Stephen in chapter 7, and speeches by James and Philip. Several have co-presenters: John (along with Peter), and Barnabas (along with Paul, twice). Peter co-presents one of the speeches with the other apostles.

The audience included three different kinds of groups. 1) Many, like the first one, are addressed to a group who believes in Jesus. 2) Most of Peter’s speeches are addressed to a gathering of Jewish people or leaders in the Jewish community; Paul’s final speech also addressed a group of Jewish leaders. 3) The majority of Paul’s speeches are addressed to Gentiles and their leaders. They do not believe in God or in the personal God of the Hebrew tradition, and they typically have not heard the story of Jesus. In the speech that Peter delivers on the day of Pentecost (which is the first long speech in the text, and is perhaps the most famous of all the speeches in Acts), Peter addresses each of these groups. His audience is "all of you" (Acts 2:14).

Each speech shares a common aim: to persuade the various audiences to undertake a deeper participation in the life of faith.

Here is a list of the speeches in Acts:

1:16-22 Peter addresses 120 believers about replacing Judas.
2:14-41 Peter preaches in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.
3:12-26 Peter addresses a gathering in the Temple Court in Jerusalem after a miracle.
4:8-12 Peter and John speak about Jesus when questioned by the Sanhedrin.
5:29-32 Peter and the apostles give witness about Jesus before the Sanhedrin.
7:2-53 Stephen delivers a long defense to the Sanhedrin after he is accused of b.asphemy.
8:26-38 Philip preaches to the Ethiopian eunuch traveling on the road from Jerusalem to Gaza.
10:34-49 Peter preaches in Caesarea to the household of Cornelius, a Roman centurion.
11:5-17 Peter addresses the circumcised believers in Jerusalem.
13:16-41 Barnabas and Paul preach to the congregation assembled in the synagogue at Antioch.
14:15-17 Barnabas and Paul preach to a crowd of Gentiles about nature and God.
15:7-11 Peter addresses the Council of Jerusalem.
15:13-21 James delivers an address at the Council of Jerusalem.
16:30-34 Paul and Silas preach to their jailer and his family in Philippi.
17:22-34 Paul speaks rather philosophically to the people of Athens at the Areopagus.
19:1-7 Paul preaches about the Holy Spirit to some believers at Ephesus.
20:17-35 Paul gives a farewell speech at Miletus to the elders visiting from the Church of Ephesus.
21:20-25 James addresses Paul and the elders in Jerusalem.
22:1-21 Paul defends himself and his mission to a crowd in Jerusalem.
23:1-6 Paul defends himself before the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem.
24:10-21 Paul defends himself before the governor Felix in Caesarea.
26:1-23 Paul defends himself before King Agrippa in Caesarea.
27:21-26 Paul speaks on a ship encouraging the passengers to remain courageous.
28:23-28 Paul addresses the Jewish leaders in Rome.

copied from 'Crossing the Tiber " by Stephen Ray, Mr. Ray was raised in a devout Baptist family and was a teacher of Biblical studies.After intensive study he followed into his Evangelical pastor footsteps into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. He and his entire family converted to Christ's Apostoli/Catholic Church on Pentecost Sunday in 1994.

So.....what is the point? If this is the sort of evidence that converted Mr. Ray and his Pastor than they would be ripe for converts for Mormonism, Jehovah Witnessism etc.

 

[lakeside]

The Biblicist, Peter exercises his authority at this first Church council along with the apostles and elders - legislating in the Church. The council is marked by much disputing as everyone waits for Peter to speak. Peter "rose" up and proclaimed the Church's teaching, binding on all believers-and "all the assembly kept silence." After giving due deference to Peter , Paul and Barnabas recount their experiences . James makes practical implications based on Peter's teaching and the words of the prophets. The authoritive teaching of the Church silences the opposition. A letter is composed that can be considered the first decree of an ecumenical council, considered infallible by the Church and the recipients- the Holy Spirit speaking through the Magisterium of the Church. Peter is a decisive factor in doctrinal and political unity and speaks for the whole Church. ---
The Biblicist, read on my next post about Dr. James White says about James at this council.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist, Peter exercises his authority at this first Church council along with the apostles and elders - legislating in the Church. The council is marked by much disputing as everyone waits for Peter to speak. Peter "rose" up and proclaimed the Church's teaching, binding on all believers-and "all the assembly kept silence." After giving due deference to Peter , Paul and Barnabas recount their experiences . James makes practical implications based on Peter's teaching and the words of the prophets. The authoritive teaching of the Church silences the opposition. A letter is composed that can be considered the first decree of an ecumenical council, considered infallible by the Church and the recipients- the Holy Spirit speaking through the Magisterium of the Church. Peter is a decisive factor in doctrinal and political unity and speaks for the whole Church. ---
The Biblicist, read on my next post about Dr. James White says about James at this council.

Half of what you said in this post is make believe! You are fabricating as you talk! There is not one shred of evidence that Peter was exercising any more authority than Paul or Barnabas in giving his witness. The text explicitly uses the term "krino" used of a presiding judge to declare or give a final verdict or "sentence" and it does not come from Peter but from James.

 

[lakeside]

James White makes the assertion that " At this point James speaks up and using the imperative mode[ v.13 ], commands the assembly to listen to his words" [ Roman Catholic Controversy
, 112, n. 246; also see 246, n. 6 ]. implying that the imperative indicates that St. James possessed the ultimate authority at the council, in that he " commands " everybody to listen to him. However , the Greek word translated as "hear me " in Acts 15: 14is " akouoo, which is used hundreds of times in the New T. For exanole, the same word is used in two verses prior in Acts 15:12 in the Greek indicate mood and translated as " and heard[ akouoo ] Barnabas and Paul. '' It is a word that , in itself, does not connote authority. Placing " akouoo" in the Greek imperative mood in Acts 15:14 can simply be understood as a request for those gathered to give their undivided attention to what will subsequently be spoken. The use of the imperative mood can be made strong or weak depending upon the context in which it is placed , but the use of the imperative does not neccessary denote any official authority of the one using the mood. The imperative mood of " akouoo " can be used for any desire of one person seeking the attention of another. It can be used
, for example , in a simple request as, " Listen, did you hear that noiise?'.... These different senses of the imperative mood are used throughout the NT [ acts 22v 1 ] [ fathers , listen to my defense'' ] James2 v 5 [ hear me, my beloved brothers' ] Again these uses do not neccessarily mean that the speaker is vested with authority over the person or group he is addressing ; rather , it can be as simple as requesting their attention to the things he wishes to tell them"--- An emphatic pronoun depends after all upon the tone and emphasis. The emphatic " I'' must be interpreted in harmony with the rest of the N T and the Bible. It is absurd to believe that James at this moment gave his personal opinion as the final word, from which there could be no appeal...... The very emphasis on the : I : shows that he was only expressing a personal conviction''-

to be continued with Acts 15:1, 6-7, 12-15, 28.

 

[lakeside]

Biblicist, to answe your post #233 , I said, after studing intensively he converted. Why are you so sarcastic with your uneducated answers , and which form of Greek are you using in your translation ? I will continue on with Acts 15 on to 28 if you have the decency to appreciate an intelligent, mature rapport together on this issue of the Jerusalem Council.

 

[The Biblicist]

James White makes the assertion that " At this point James speaks up and using the imperative mode[ v.13 ], commands the assembly to listen to his words" [ Roman Catholic Controversy
, 112, n. 246; also see 246, n. 6 ]. implying that the imperative indicates that St. James possessed the ultimate authority at the council, in that he " commands " everybody to listen to him. However , the Greek word translated as "hear me " in Acts 15: 14is " akouoo, which is used hundreds of times in the New T. For exanole, the same word is used in two verses prior in Acts 15:12 in the Greek indicate mood and translated as " and heard[ akouoo ] Barnabas and Paul. '' It is a word that , in itself, does not connote authority. Placing " akouoo" in the Greek imperative mood in Acts 15:14 can simply be understood as a request for those gathered to give their undivided attention to what will subsequently be spoken. The use of the imperative mood can be made strong or weak depending upon the context in which it is placed , but the use of the imperative does not neccessary denote any official authority of the one using the mood. The imperative mood of " akouoo " can be used for any desire of one person seeking the attention of another. It can be used
, for example , in a simple request as, " Listen, did you hear that noiise?'.... These different senses of the imperative mood are used throughout the NT [ acts 22v 1 ] [ fathers , listen to my defense'' ] James2 v 5 [ hear me, my beloved brothers' ] Again these uses do not neccessarily mean that the speaker is vested with authority over the person or group he is addressing ; rather , it can be as simple as requesting their attention to the things he wishes to tell them"--- An emphatic pronoun depends after all upon the tone and emphasis. The emphatic " I'' must be interpreted in harmony with the rest of the N T and the Bible. It is absurd to believe that James at this moment gave his personal opinion as the final word, from which there could be no appeal...... The very emphasis on the : I : shows that he was only expressing a personal conviction''-

to be continued with Acts 15:1, 6-7, 12-15, 28.

Sorry, but he fails to add that the imperative mode was in connection with the term "sentence." This additional factor demolishes his whole argument that it was some kind of "weaker" imperative.

Did Peter say "hear me"? - No! Did Peter say this was his "sentence" - No!

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, to answe your post #233 , I said, after studing intensively he converted. Why are you so sarcastic with your uneducated answers , and which form of Greek are you using in your translation ? I will continue on with Acts 15 on to 28 if you have the decency to appreciate an intelligent, mature rapport together on this issue of the Jerusalem Council.

What you are presenting is baseless! There is nothing to support your argument butt pure imagination. Give some substance to be worth consideration.

 

[lakeside]

Acts 15:1, 6-7 , 12-15, 28. Many have used this passage in an attempt to invalidate Petr's primacy by drawing attention to St.James as having the "final word ", but this interpretation is sadly misguided . So tell me Biblicist, what is there in this episode which runs counter to Peter's primacy of jurisdiction?? Is it not rather in fullest conformity with it?St. James is the bishop of the city , yet not only does St. Peter speak first - he settles the question; St. James endorces what he says , and simply provides a practical way of meeting the difficulty which has arisen". You're right Biblicist in saying that [ James] went beyond Peter's decision, but he was not decreeing or deciding as St. Peter had done. He states, to begin with, that it is his judgment. Peter didn't speak for himself ; he spoke for the whole Church. What St. James added had nothing to do with the doctrinal decision which had [ already ] been settled [ by Peter ]
Peter's theological pronouncement was the watershed of the council; St. Paul gave testimony and St. James concludes with pastoral , practical implementation. Opponents as you and other anti- Catholics often cite the above passage as aproof text for sola Scriptura , asserting that St. James goes to the Bible alone for his summary , it is interesting to note that James quotes TWO authorities as he sunmmarizes the proceedings : Peter and the OLD T, and "with this the words of the prophets agree"Acts 15: 14-15.