Some census thoughts...

[Steven2006]

Could you please show us where in the Fourteenth Amendment we're told that the government has the authority to use the census to ask us questions about our mortagages?

You claimed that the 14th amendment prohibited it. Are you now admitting it doesn't do that?

 

[rbell]

It's the one constitutional obligation that you have. How in the world can you hold to a strict read of the Constitution and act like this?

Umm...the constitution mandates a census for the sake of representation. Since when did they need to know my race for that?

Just because you don't care for the man in the Oval Office? Or the people running Congress?

Umm...no. Who do you think was in charge 10 years ago? What position do you think I held then? Bad policy is bad policy, whether it's squeezed out of a donkey's back end or an elephant's.

Great gravy man, they aren't asking for secret data...in fact most of it could be figured out by a 5th grader with a questionnaire. Besides most of this is online somewhere...

Good. Then instead of asking me, perhaps the 5th-graders running our country can go look for it.

 

[Salty]

Could you please show us where in the Fourteenth Amendment we're told that the government has the authority to use the census to ask us questions about our mortagages?

Evidently you did not read post # 10. If you do not understand my post, please PM, and I will try to explain it on a 5th grad level.

Salty

 

[preachinjesus]

Umm...the constitution mandates a census for the sake of representation. Since when did they need to know my race for that?

Well it is good information for the government to keep track of imho. Are minorities under-represented in certain areas or over-represented? How are our communities becoming more or less tribal? Is there something happening behind the numbers that the government can exercise its legislative will about and fix? Reasonable point imho.

Umm...no. Who do you think was in charge 10 years ago? What position do you think I held then? Bad policy is bad policy, whether it's squeezed out of a donkey's back end or an elephant's.

It's the ONE CONSTITUTIONAL thing that we are asked to participate in. You aren't asked to vote, just fill out the card when it gets to you. How is it that such a strict constructionist can deny this obligation of the Congress?

Good. Then instead of asking me, perhaps the 5th-graders running our country can go look for it.

Here's the thing. I love the census and I love the Census Department. Why you ask? Because every time they come out with information I, as a minister, eat it up. I love reading about how our community is changing and how we, as a ministry, can better adjust our model to meet the needs of our changing community. Its absolutely free and the stinking program works!

I just you're disagreeing to be disagreeable. Just being honest.

 

[annsni]

Here's the thing. I love the census and I love the Census Department. Why you ask? Because every time they come out with information I, as a minister, eat it up. I love reading about how our community is changing and how we, as a ministry, can better adjust our model to meet the needs of our changing community. Its absolutely free and the stinking program works!

I agree and the census is what has helped us to figure out where we want to plant our church. A town with a half million people is known. We did research into how many Bible believing churches there are and how many attend those churches. It turns out only 3% of the population in that town attend a Bible believing church. Can you say "open field"??? So we used this information from the census and the school district information to find the place where we want to plant. We also know that it's a large hispanic population so we will have numerous Spanish speaking men and women on the plant team. Additionally, the vast majority of homes in the area have children under 18 years old so we'll be addressing families too. That makes a difference in how we go about things.

 

[windcatcher]

Let's take a look at the 14th amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may, by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


OK - Nope - don't see any violation of this anywhere regarding the census questions.

Nor do I see any requirement in this amendment to report any other information to the Federal government than the number of people in my home on the date of the census.

I see that there are some here who would call me a criminal just for doing that which is required by law and for volunteering nothing more than what is required by law. They need to back up and read the law before they are called upon to do jury duty.

BTW........

if the constitution does not say it is required.... that means the constitution leaves it up to the states and the people to determine what IS required. If the constitution requires that the US is required to enumerate its citizens for the drawing up of districts and to determine the taxes upon each state for revenue to run it.... that is all that is required.

If the states decide they need their own community surveys... it is up to each of them to make the law and finance it.

 

[rbell]

Well it is good information for the government to keep track of imho. Are minorities under-represented in certain areas or over-represented? How are our communities becoming more or less tribal? Is there something happening behind the numbers that the government can exercise its legislative will about and fix? Reasonable point imho.

Because of gerrymandering (and that's been done both ways), minorities have been "over and under-represented." Since we're offering "imho's," mine is that the party in power (D's now, R's have done it) should be simple and straightforward in its congressional districts, and quit trying to carve out extra seats for itself. If minority communities aren't being "carved up" to split their vote, then the "under/over" is irrelevant. One man, one vote. All men equal. Best person gets the job. (maybe one day, that will actually happen with Congress)

It's the ONE CONSTITUTIONAL thing that we are asked to participate in. You aren't asked to vote, just fill out the card when it gets to you. How is it that such a strict constructionist can deny this obligation of the Congress?

*sigh*

I've explained this. The constitutional function is re-apportionment of districts. The one item needed for this is number. The other data (particularly race) is for vote-buying. I would hope you would agree that some serious vote-buying goes on (look at the deals cut in the healthcare bill for an example).

Here's the thing. I love the census and I love the Census Department. Why you ask? Because every time they come out with information I, as a minister, eat it up. I love reading about how our community is changing and how we, as a ministry, can better adjust our model to meet the needs of our changing community. Its absolutely free and the stinking program works!

I just you're disagreeing to be disagreeable. Just being honest.

I'm glad you found a use for it.

There are private entities that do the same thing. We have a study on our community done by a private entity. I know what you meant by "it's free"--you don't pay to see the data--but one thing I know: If government's in charge of it, it most certainly ain't free.

We can agree to disagree, and I'm sorry you feel the need to question my motives.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You claimed that the 14th amendment prohibited it. Are you now admitting it doesn't do that?

No, I'm not admitting that it doesn't do that.

The problem is, Steven, that they no longer teach civics in government schools so most people, such as yourself, evidently, don't realize that the Constitution works on a principle known as enumerated powers (also sometimes called specific enumeration).

What this means is that in order for the government to do something, the Constitution must name that the government wants to do. The government can't just do something and then say "well, the Constitution doesn't say we can't".

So, because the Constitution only says that the government can do a census in order to count citizens to determine what area gets what representation, questions such as how we've paid for our home are not legal under the Constitution.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You claimed that the 14th amendment prohibited it. Are you now admitting it doesn't do that?

No, I'm not admitting that it doesn't do that.

The problem is, Steven, that they no longer teach civics in government schools so most people, such as yourself, evidently, don't realize that the Constitution works on a principle known as enumerated powers (also sometimes called specific enumeration).

What this means is that in order for the government to do something, the Constitution must specifically name that the government wants to do. And if it doesn't, then the Tenth Amendment says that that thing is the responsibility of the states or of the people. The government can't just do something and then say "well, the Constitution doesn't say we can't".

So, because the Constitution only says that the government can do a census in order to count citizens to determine what area gets what representation, questions such as how we've paid for our home are not legal under the Constitution.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Nor do I see any requirement in this amendment to report any other information to the Federal government than the number of people in my home on the date of the census.

I see that there are some here who would call me a criminal just for doing that which is required by law and for volunteering nothing more than what is required by law. They need to back up and read the law before they are called upon to do jury duty.

BTW........

if the constitution does not say it is required.... that means the constitution leaves it up to the states and the people to determine what IS required. If the constitution requires that the US is required to enumerate its citizens for the drawing up of districts and to determine the taxes upon each state for revenue to run it.... that is all that is required.

If the states decide they need their own community surveys... it is up to each of them to make the law and finance it.

Well said. I was actually told in another thread that I was sinning and that I was rejecting God's authority because I choose to only answer those questions I was legally required to answer.

By the way, it's been a week. No warrants have been issued and no government thug has knocked on my door to take me in for not answering.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Well it is good information for the government to keep track of imho. Are minorities under-represented in certain areas or over-represented?

So then, you believe that representation should be determined by minority status? Whatever happened to all men being equal?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Evidently you did not read post # 10. If you do not understand my post, please PM, and I will try to explain it on a 5th grad level.

Salty

A fifth grade level? My, you're a big boy, aren't you?

 

[menageriekeeper]

If minority communities aren't being "carved up" to split their vote, then the "under/over" is irrelevant.

Thing is Rbell, I can remember this being done right here in Alabama on purpose and publicly. And I can also remember things being done just the opposite where the majority was carved up in order to make a seat for a minority candidate to get elected. (that district still exists today btw. Its how Artur Davis got elected)

You know as well as I do, that if it weren't done this way no minority candidate in this state would EVER get elected except in Birmingham. Don't fool yourself into thinking that we have overcome all the obstacles and everyone can be equally represented without race/culture info. There is still an enormous amount of bigotry in this state. It's better than it was, but there is more work to be done on both sides.

 

[targus]

Well it is good information for the government to keep track of imho. Are minorities under-represented in certain areas or over-represented?

I doubt that is the reason for the information.

After all what difference does it make what type of Hispanic a person is?

Breaking down the Hispanic population into subsets was a substantial portion of the census form.

My guess is that more information is required in order to properly pander to certain segments of the population.

 

[padredurand]

Could you please show us where in the Fourteenth Amendment we're told that the government has the authority to use the census to ask us questions about our mortagages?

I hope nobody uses their mortgage to get that mortgage interest deduction on their taxes. Why that would be disclosing your mortgage information to the government.

Just thinking out loud here.... You'll tell the tax lady or feller, your banker, the gal that filed your loan at the county, the finance guy at the car dealer, nameless faces that process credit applications, your buddy down at the coffee shop and Uncle Joe at Thanksgiving all about having a mortgage on the home farm but if the evil empire asks y'all a simple question on the census form it's time for rebellion.

While I'm still thinking... Every question asked on the census could be answered from independent sources. Shoot, stop by our local coffee shop and the boys in there will tell you things about myself that I didn't even know. That not withstanding a credit application, last year's tax return and a records search at the DMV should cover it. Problem there is that kind of leg work is labor intensive. Time is money. Census folk would have to spend hours digging for information you could have provided in ten minutes. Then we could have another thread on how the census wastes billions of dollars because census workers are reviewing records from the credit bureau, the IRS and standing in line at the DMV.

So why is it none of the government's business to know my business when it is the census but when it comes to doing the taxes I want them to know - to the penny - how much interest I paid? :wavey:

 

[windcatcher]

I hope nobody uses their mortgage to get that mortgage interest deduction on their taxes. Why that would be disclosing your mortgage information to the government.

Just thinking out loud here.... You'll tell the tax lady or feller, your banker, the gal that filed your loan at the county, the finance guy at the car dealer, nameless faces that process credit applications, your buddy down at the coffee shop and Uncle Joe at Thanksgiving all about having a mortgage on the home farm but if the evil empire asks y'all a simple question on the census form it's time for rebellion.

It is not rebellion to refuse what the law doesn't require. Merely asking the question doesn't make it a lawful question for you to answer. If I ask you how much money you make and whats the mortgage on your home, how much do you weigh, and what did that suit cost you.... You'd be right to tell me its none of my business. But you will tell the government and all the strangers through whos hands this information passes the information which is none of their business?

While I'm still thinking... Every question asked on the census could be answered from independent sources. Shoot, stop by our local coffee shop and the boys in there will tell you things about myself that I didn't even know. That not withstanding a credit application, last year's tax return and a records search at the DMV should cover it. Problem there is that kind of leg work is labor intensive. Time is money. Census folk would have to spend hours digging for information you could have provided in ten minutes. Then we could have another thread on how the census wastes billions of dollars because census workers are reviewing records from the credit bureau, the IRS and standing in line at the DMV.

The problem is, if it concerns the needs of your community or your states' need for information .....they already have their sources and collating that information is not as difficult as you may think for them to conduct their business. But this information cannot be used by the federal government for any business at that level which is constitutional.

But maybe you'd prefer to scrap the constitution? Maybe you don't understand that to keep the rights to things which are your business, you must protect and exercise your rights of choice... or you join with others who don't know their rights until someday... they are taken away. Then our rights will be 'privileges' and those 'privileges' will come and go as it best suits the government's interest.

So why is it none of the government's business to know my business when it is the census but when it comes to doing the taxes I want them to know - to the penny - how much interest I paid? :wavey:

You know, Padre, just because you can reduce your taxes by claiming your mortgage interest doesn't mean you have to. Just because you may tithe and give to charity and have enough to claim against taxes, doesn't mean you have to report it. You are required by law to report to the IRS your total income and the taxes already withheld and adjust for dependents, and pay any tax left due. These are under the tax code and I suggest that you're wise to used these to help reduce your taxes.... but not all that you report is required by law, even on the tax form. You do have to sign copy which amounts to an oath that you correctly gave the report, and they might do an audit whether random or based on information which you didn't report to see if you over paid or underpaid your taxes.

But the census, according to the constitution is for one thing and one thing only..... to determine the number of representatives are properly proportioned to each state and to determine what the central government has the right to expect in proportionate revenue from each state for the running of its affairs.

I don't care what your name sounds like, or what you look like: You are either an American citizen or you are not.... and I would not vote for a person if I knew he was not an American citizen. After that, it is the quality of his character and his consistency to stick by his principles and what those are .... which determine whether I trust him. If his principles agree with mine.... then he'll get my vote. If his principles do not agree with mine.... as long as he has some.... I will trust him to do as his principles direct, regardless of whether I vote for him or not... and to that extent he still has my regard.

But, if I know that my race will make a difference in that man's ability to represent me, then he doesn't deserve my vote. I am an American. I could be Black, or Hispanic, Indian, or Chinese. Whatever those are and what it means to me is roots and heritage of which I take personal pride in knowing that I had fathers and they had fathers and they had fathers before them. But I am first and foremost a human being and an American. If I left family behind, I want them to know I am an American and they can feel proud that their own is living in America and is an American. I choose for myself and my countrymen not to label myself or accept other divisions unless talking of geneology or experience or culture. I would expect others to take my citizenship seriously...and refuse to acknowledge those who would try to make or create or sustain that there is a difference between me and other citizens. They are the ones with problems and not me. I am first and last an American with nothing between.

If I came to this country from elsewhere... it was not to cast off my roots and pride in heritage.... but it was to be counted as an American and one with my new homeland and the people I adopt as my own. It was not to be counted as though different. It was not to be ignored or treated as though I'm second class. It was not to be patronized and courted as though my loyalty and vote were prostituted and for sale. It was not so I, if ever elected to office, could divide my constituents into groups and pass laws to favor some and hurt others. No, my heritage and my race is a God given unalterable gift which neither I nor others can change and I live in a country where it makes no difference except to those who are small and weak and unworthy of regard by those who are free and intelligent and who count me as an equal.

I'm not telling you that it is wrong to answer these questions. What I am saying is that this instrument for taking the census is doing much more and will be used for much more than what our founders intended when those questions are answered and the tabulations come in.

Earlier I cited that the census was used to round up American citizens of Japanese decent. That is evil. No American citizen should be challenged in his citizenship without more cause than a heritage or race which cannot be changed. If it didn't matter then these questions wouldn't be asked. If it does matter than for what purpose does it matter and how can this data be used later. Oh, you have a home with 5 bedrooms and two full baths and a half, but only 2 people occupying? It may not matter that you use one as your office to prepare sermons for Sunday or to counsel couples getting married.... or that your wife uses one as a sewing/guest room combo, or that your kid gets home from college breaks and holidays to stay in the fifth... or that you share space with visiting clergy or family who travel a long distance, to reduce their expenses for motels: A crisis occurs and the government determines it needs your space more than you do... and under executive orders and martial law.... you may protest, you may be arrested, but the government will then take power over you and the use of what you have. It will not be the same as dealing with those in your own community, which will likely offer choices and the appeal of shared compassion will motivate you to contribute as you can: You have voluntarily placed the possessions which God has given you on the inventory sheet for BIG government to count amongst its many possessions. If it needs it, it can take it... immanent domain is hard to fight when government lawyers can present a compelling case which you can't lawyer up enough to fight. You have voluntarily shown 'your colors' and if they deem you to be less privileged, or more vulnerable to a particular type of manipulation or tactic..... you gave them the ammo to shoot back. You would not stereotype yourself... why offer them the opportunity to divide you off from other Americans... and think of you differently.

Do as you will. You break no law in voluntary answering anything the government ask of you.... and, if they ask, you break no law in giving them everything they want or offering more.

I just see these things differently from many and maybe most people, as I become more acquainted with we have become conditioned to yield to every request and accept at face value the explanations which are given that sedate us into believing that everyone and every device created by man is to serve for our good..... when we fail to realize, we live in a fallen world: We either yield up our rights and volunteer information which can only be given voluntarily.... or we draw a line, not against the law, but against its unnecessary and unsupported intrusions which can be used for evil or for good.

Keep thinking dear Padre. This goes deeper than it appears on the surface. But if you keep thinking..... you've won half the battle.... whether you can agree with me now or not. Don't be discouraged. Keep thinking.

 

[Robert Snow]

You know, Padre, just because you can reduce your taxes by claiming your mortgage interest doesn't mean you have to. Just because you may tithe and give to charity and have enough to claim against taxes, doesn't mean you have to report it. You are required by law to report to the IRS your total income and the taxes already withheld and adjust for dependents, and pay any tax left due. These are under the tax code and I suggest that you're wise to used these to help reduce your taxes.... but not all that you report is required by law, even on the tax form. You do have to sign copy which amounts to an oath that you correctly gave the report, and they might do an audit whether random or based on information which you didn't report to see if you over paid or underpaid your taxes.

But the census, according to the constitution is for one thing and one thing only..... to determine the number of representatives are properly proportioned to each state and to determine what the central government has the right to expect in proportionate revenue from each state for the running of its affairs.

I don't care what your name sounds like, or what you look like: You are either an American citizen or you are not.... and I would not vote for a person if I knew he was not an American citizen. After that, it is the quality of his character and his consistency to stick by his principles and what those are .... which determine whether I trust him. If his principles agree with mine.... then he'll get my vote. If his principles do not agree with mine.... as long as he has some.... I will trust him to do as his principles direct, regardless of whether I vote for him or not... and to that extent he still has my regard.

But, if I know that my race will make a difference in that man's ability to represent me, then he doesn't deserve my vote. I am an American. I could be Black, or Hispanic, Indian, or Chinese. Whatever those are and what it means to me is roots and heritage of which I take personal pride in knowing that I had fathers and they had fathers and they had fathers before them. But I am first and foremost a human being and an American. If I left family behind, I want them to know I am an American and they can feel proud that their own is living in America and is an American. I choose for myself and my countrymen not to label myself or accept other divisions unless talking of geneology or experience or culture. I would expect others to take my citizenship seriously...and refuse to acknowledge those who would try to make or create or sustain that there is a difference between me and other citizens. They are the ones with problems and not me. I am first and last an American with nothing between.

If I came to this country from elsewhere... it was not to cast off my roots and pride in heritage.... but it was to be counted as an American and one with my new homeland and the people I adopt as my own. It was not to be counted as though different. It was not to be ignored or treated as though I'm second class. It was not to be patronized and courted as though my loyalty and vote were prostituted and for sale. It was not so I, if ever elected to office, could divide my constituents into groups and pass laws to favor some and hurt others. No, my heritage and my race is a God given unalterable gift which neither I nor others can change and I live in a country where it makes no difference except to those who are small and weak and unworthy of regard by those who are free and intelligent and who count me as an equal.

I'm not telling you that it is wrong to answer these questions. What I am saying is that this instrument for taking the census is doing much more and will be used for much more than what our founders intended when those questions are answered and the tabulations come in.

Earlier I cited that the census was used to round up American citizens of Japanese decent. That is evil. No American citizen should be challenged in his citizenship without more cause than a heritage or race which cannot be changed. If it didn't matter then these questions wouldn't be asked. If it does matter than for what purpose does it matter and how can this data be used later. Oh, you have a home with 5 bedrooms and two full baths and a half, but only 2 people occupying? It may not matter that you use one as your office to prepare sermons for Sunday or to counsel couples getting married.... or that your wife uses one as a sewing/guest room combo, or that your kid gets home from college breaks and holidays to stay in the fifth... or that you share space with visiting clergy or family who travel a long distance, to reduce their expenses for motels: A crisis occurs and the government determines it needs your space more than you do... and under executive orders and martial law.... you may protest, you may be arrested, but the government will then take power over you and the use of what you have. It will not be the same as dealing with those in your own community, which will likely offer choices and the appeal of shared compassion will motivate you to contribute as you can: You have voluntarily placed the possessions which God has given you on the inventory sheet for BIG government to count amongst its many possessions. If it needs it, it can take it... immanent domain is hard to fight when government lawyers can present a compelling case which you can't lawyer up enough to fight. You have voluntarily shown 'your colors' and if they deem you to be less privileged, or more vulnerable to a particular type of manipulation or tactic..... you gave them the ammo to shoot back. You would not stereotype yourself... why offer them the opportunity to divide you off from other Americans... and think of you differently.

Do as you will. You break no law in voluntary answering anything the government ask of you.... and, if they ask, you break no law in giving them everything they want or offering more.

I just see these things differently from many and maybe most people, as I become more acquainted with we have become conditioned to yield to every request and accept at face value the explanations which are given that sedate us into believing that everyone and every device created by man is to serve for our good..... when we fail to realize, we live in a fallen world: We either yield up our rights and volunteer information which can only be given voluntarily.... or we draw a line, not against the law, but against its unnecessary and unsupported intrusions which can be used for evil or for good.

Keep thinking dear Padre. This goes deeper than it appears on the surface. But if you keep thinking..... you've won half the battle.... whether you can agree with me now or not. Don't be discouraged. Keep thinking.

I believe you, along with many here, are just opposed to government because of President Obama. Instead of being content with what God have given you, you complain about almost every thing the government does and gripe about excessive taxes and how your tax money is spent. But, let someone from Canada or Europe say one thing negative about the U.S. and all of a sudden this is the best country on the planet. Isn't there anything about the government and president God has given you that you are thankful for?

 

[NiteShift]

Isn't there anything about the government and the president God has given you that you are thankful for?

Yes, it is a reminder of "Oh, now I remember why I quit voting for Democrats".

 

[Robert Snow]

Yes, it is a reminder of "Oh, now I remember why I quit voting for Democrats".

I didn't vote for them either!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I hope nobody uses their mortgage to get that mortgage interest deduction on their taxes. Why that would be disclosing your mortgage information to the government.

While there are several Constitutional issues regarding taxes, mortgage interest deductions are not one of them.

Just thinking out loud here.... You'll tell the tax lady or feller, your banker, the gal that filed your loan at the county, the finance guy at the car dealer, nameless faces that process credit applications, your buddy down at the coffee shop and Uncle Joe at Thanksgiving all about having a mortgage on the home farm but if the evil empire asks y'all a simple question on the census form it's time for rebellion.

Not volunteering information that someone has no right to ask you for in the first place is hardly rebellion.