Jarthur001
Active Member
From that same link.....
also....i'll add this..
Now..
These happen to be election verses ...right?
also....i'll add this..
Now..
These happen to be election verses ...right?
-
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Some false views of Election examined and refuted
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Election in Calvinism is nothing more than "arbitrary pre-selection" as we saw in the Calvinist spin on Romans 8 happening BEFORE God is allowed to "foreknow" the future choices of the saints.
But INSTEAD of that bogus teaching - what we find in scripture is that God FOREKNOWS the choices and actions of ALL - fo ALL of time and knowing who will accept the Gospel - God predestines that THESE should "Be conformed to the image of His Son" Rom 8.
By CONTRAST the Calvinist doctrine on election via arbitrary-pre-selection
requires the EDIT and DOWNSIZE of scripture such that "God so loved the FEW that HE gave" - resulting in not only arbitrary selection but also limited atonement
in Christ,
Bob
He Foreknows His People -- No One Else
BR : you have yet to get a number of things straight in your noggin .
Foreknowlege does not mean God knowing the future . Of courses He knows the choices everyone will make . However , without His intercession no one would choose the LORD . Hence , He causes the elect to have their adamant hearts melt and they choose Him because He brought that about . No one would choose Him on their own power . The LORD does not have to look and see what He Himself has to do . It's too silly for words .
In John 12:32 it refers to drawing all people to Himself . That means all kinds of people Hebrews and Gentiles , men and women and children , rich and poor etc.
I have already explained that if you think every individual has been drawn to Christ you are sadly deluded . The LORD has only drawn some to Himself . See once more John 6:37,39,44,and 65 . The drawing in Scripture only means effectual drawing . It is not partial . It always leads to eternal life for those He draws . He has not chosen to draw the entire human race . Common sense Bob , common sense . Has He drawn those in Hell ? Did He draw those who resided in Hell before Christ's first advent ? Of course not ! Drawing is only the bringing of Himself savingly to those of His good pleasure .
You mentioned John 6:45 where it is said that all will be taught by God . But that is qualified by the last part of the verse which says : "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me ." Therefore all who are ordained to eternal life are the ones who listen to the Father and learns from Him --- they will come to Jesus .
In John 1:7 it states that : " so everyone might believe because of his testimony ." Have the ones who have never heard of Christ and the Gospel "heard his testimony" ? Of course not . So those who are given belief will belive because of His testimony .
Revelation 3:20 : " If you hear my voice and open the door , I will come in ..." This was written to the wayward Church of Laodicea . So anyone whether they are Hebrews or Gentiles are the ones referred to here .
In short , Christ died for those He has drawn to Himself -- no others . It is a limited number of the mass of humanity from the time of creation . He died for all the elect children of God . He died for the Church . See Eph.5:2,23,25 . See also Acts 20:28 for solemn study .
BR : you have yet to get a number of things straight in your noggin .
Foreknowlege does not mean God knowing the future . Of courses He knows the choices everyone will make . However , without His intercession no one would choose the LORD . Hence , He causes the elect to have their adamant hearts melt and they choose Him because He brought that about . No one would choose Him on their own power . The LORD does not have to look and see what He Himself has to do . It's too silly for words .
In John 12:32 it refers to drawing all people to Himself . That means all kinds of people Hebrews and Gentiles , men and women and children , rich and poor etc.
I have already explained that if you think every individual has been drawn to Christ you are sadly deluded . The LORD has only drawn some to Himself . See once more John 6:37,39,44,and 65 . The drawing in Scripture only means effectual drawing . It is not partial . It always leads to eternal life for those He draws . He has not chosen to draw the entire human race . Common sense Bob , common sense . Has He drawn those in Hell ? Did He draw those who resided in Hell before Christ's first advent ? Of course not ! Drawing is only the bringing of Himself savingly to those of His good pleasure .
You mentioned John 6:45 where it is said that all will be taught by God . But that is qualified by the last part of the verse which says : "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me ." Therefore all who are ordained to eternal life are the ones who listen to the Father and learns from Him --- they will come to Jesus .
In John 1:7 it states that : " so everyone might believe because of his testimony ." Have the ones who have never heard of Christ and the Gospel "heard his testimony" ? Of course not . So those who are given belief will belive because of His testimony .
Revelation 3:20 : " If you hear my voice and open the door , I will come in ..." This was written to the wayward Church of Laodicea . So anyone whether they are Hebrews or Gentiles are the ones referred to here .
In short , Christ died for those He has drawn to Himself -- no others . It is a limited number of the mass of humanity from the time of creation . He died for all the elect children of God . He died for the Church . See Eph.5:2,23,25 . See also Acts 20:28 for solemn study .
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rippon said:
You keep making that wild claim AS IF it is actually true.
What is troubling you that you keep doing it??
Indeed. So the burden of proof is that His fore-knowing of the future IS NOT the meaning for FOREKNOW!!
You have made a pretty wild claim there -at some point you have to SHOW that it is actually true.
That sir is the salient point in the Calvinist argument and you are simply stating it (assuming it) NOT proving it.
(once again)
Agreed your argument there is getting silly.
OK I think I see how your playing that game -- here let me join you.
"No it doesn't".
so now that that is settled... next.
That is NOT an explanation it is yet another wild claim -- so I am happy to respond in kind.
"no I am not".
(Why in the world this form of exchange is apealing to a Calvinist I will never know)
The BIBLE says "I will DRAW ALL to Myself" John 12:32
BUT Rippon said
We leave it as an exercise for the reader to SEE if what Rippon has said matches scripture.
That is not true.
(Hey I think I am getting the hang of this empty assertion form of dialoge that you are so married to at the moment)
Yes He has and this is obvious since your prior three wild assertions were all false and this conclusion then is based in thin air.
A. No such thing.
B. YES He has drawn ALL -- both the saved AND the wicked lost.
The DRAWING of God is what ENABLES choice!
Indeed and as John says in Rev 3
"If anyone HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door THEN I WILL come in and fellowship" our union with Christ starts AFTER we choose to open the door.
In the case of John 6 it is AFTER we choose to listen and to LEARN.
That much is true so we are blessed by the fact that the text DOES NOT say "so everyone has been CAUSED TO BELIEVE". Rather the context in the chapter shows SOME chose to believ and SOME to disbelieve.
"HE CAME TO HIS OWN and they were CAUSED TO BELIEVE" is NOT found in John 1.
It is simply "NEEDED" as an edit to the text by the Calvinist argument.
Which is a good thing since HE DRAWS ALL.
"He is the ATONING SACRIFICE for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2
It does not get any more ARMINIAN than that my friend.
You could not have asked for a more perfect Calvinism-debunking statement in all of scripture.
BTW nobody is denying that ALL the people in the world for all of time ALSO includes the saints
in Christ,
Bob
Jarthur001
Active Member
This is what I'm talking about. WD...its like pulling teeth to get you to share your faith. Maybe not on all things...but on the doctrines of grace it is. You are always quick to say what you do not believe.webdog said:
Lets do it this way. Forget yes or no...forget true or false.
Just share what you believe.
Put it into words so even someone as dumb as me can understand. Or think about this...maybe a new person is on here that never has heard your faith. Tell the world what you believe. I get excited when someone ask me to share. Do you not feel this way?
I have put on the line what I believe in the past about election. Others that disagree can take pot shots at what I post. I will state what I believe again on election.
Now anyone can agree...or disagree. You can take your pot shot at how wrong that is.
But....after you do your pot shots...please answer just one thing.
Jarthur001
Active Member
BobRyan said:
Believe you me......
I cannot wait to address this post. However..you never answered what was asked. Maybe it was unclear. I shall state it again. The top key verses you feel is key to your doctrine ...the very verses you post time and time again....the verses you feel crushes Calvinism are as followed.
I will ask again.
Let me put it in a list so it is easy to follow.
1) in John 12:32 "ALL drawn"...what does "draw" mean?
2) In Rev 3 "If anyone HEARS my voice AND (chooses to) OPEN the door then I WILL come in". .....The word door is talked about two times in chapter 3. In context of the passage...what does door mean?
3) in John 1....it says.."The Light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man"
when you highlight "enlighten"....are you saying EVERY man hears and understands the gospel? If so....when did this happen? If not..what does "enlighten" mean here?
What is pre-selection? Is this the same as..."choosen before"?
Arbitary? No. Choosen for His own pleasure. Yes
Foreknow. tell you what. Lets get down to it. Please post the greek words found in the text...that we get our words "foreknow" from. Then tell us all what it means. I'll give you the chance to do this on your own. If you do not...I will. the we will see who is spinning the text.
When did God know this? Did God know Cain would not believe, before God made Cain the man that he was? After God made Cain and God know Cain would not believe based on what God saw would happen, could Cain become a believer?
How is downsizing linked to taking all of the Bible and not just john 3:16?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Indeed...webdog said:
And once again you cannot answer what you believe. Sad.
Be upfront with me. Is it always this hard for you to share your faith?
More dishonesty...I can, and have answered. You are only looking to argue. I've been down this road with you before, and I will not do it again. You have flat out rejected what I have said in the past...so why would I keep repeating it? I'm done with that.Jarthur001 said:
...and another personal attack. Classy, James.
Jarthur001
Active Member
ok..............webdog said:
Jarthur001:
"If the elect obtain salvation, and if election is to salvation, election must pave the way for salvation. Men are saved when they believe on Christ, not when they are elected. ... There was not only an election to the office, but an induction into the office. God's elect are inducted into the position of saintship by the effectual call, or empowering or the quickening work of the Holy Spirit through which they become believers in the Gospel."
GE:
Well said; comment superfluous. Encouraging to read
"If the elect obtain salvation, and if election is to salvation, election must pave the way for salvation. Men are saved when they believe on Christ, not when they are elected. ... There was not only an election to the office, but an induction into the office. God's elect are inducted into the position of saintship by the effectual call, or empowering or the quickening work of the Holy Spirit through which they become believers in the Gospel."
GE:
Well said; comment superfluous. Encouraging to read
BobRyan:
"Election in Calvinism is nothing more than "arbitrary pre-selection" as we saw in the Calvinist spin on Romans 8 happening BEFORE God is allowed to "foreknow" the future choices of the saints.
But INSTEAD of that bogus teaching - what we find in scripture is that God FOREKNOWS the choices and actions of ALL - fo ALL of time and knowing who will accept the Gospel - God predestines that THESE should "Be conformed to the image of His Son" Rom 8.
By CONTRAST the Calvinist doctrine on election via arbitrary-pre-selection
requires the EDIT and DOWNSIZE of scripture such that "God so loved the FEW that HE gave" - resulting in not only arbitrary selection but also limited atonement"
GE:
On another thread I blundered mistaking a falsified 'quotation' from Calvin for yours. It could just as well have been yours. Here you do exactly as that falsification did.
Most irksome is you all the time telling the Calvinists what and how and why THEY, believe, all the time stating YOUR own garbled views of 'election'. That old analogue, erecting an own strawman to heroically destroy it. Bravo!
But I'll go work offline, then come back and give you Calvin, on your howler.
"Election in Calvinism is nothing more than "arbitrary pre-selection" as we saw in the Calvinist spin on Romans 8 happening BEFORE God is allowed to "foreknow" the future choices of the saints.
But INSTEAD of that bogus teaching - what we find in scripture is that God FOREKNOWS the choices and actions of ALL - fo ALL of time and knowing who will accept the Gospel - God predestines that THESE should "Be conformed to the image of His Son" Rom 8.
By CONTRAST the Calvinist doctrine on election via arbitrary-pre-selection
requires the EDIT and DOWNSIZE of scripture such that "God so loved the FEW that HE gave" - resulting in not only arbitrary selection but also limited atonement"
GE:
On another thread I blundered mistaking a falsified 'quotation' from Calvin for yours. It could just as well have been yours. Here you do exactly as that falsification did.
Most irksome is you all the time telling the Calvinists what and how and why THEY, believe, all the time stating YOUR own garbled views of 'election'. That old analogue, erecting an own strawman to heroically destroy it. Bravo!
But I'll go work offline, then come back and give you Calvin, on your howler.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Jarthur001 said:
THE SAME thing it means in John 6.
It means that God both ENABLES the person to choose AND supernaturally CONVICTS them of their condition and NEED to choose gospel salvation.
"Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANYONE HEARS and OPENS the door I WILL come in".
Pretty simple really.
Door to the heart. Christ on the OUTSIDE the lost sinner ALONE and on the INSIDE.
Hint: No salvation APART from Christ,
No. This is not about "global story telling".
John says ALL are enlightened in John 1.
John says it is the SPIRIT that moves upon the human heart even when we can not detect it - in John 3 and that this is KEY to the New Birth.
In John 6 God DRAWS mankind
in John 12 - God in fact DRAWS ALL!!
It could not be any simpler.
Romans 2:13-16 spells it out in detail sir.
That is not a definition it is instead "speculation".
In fact Calvinists INSIST on the purest of arbitrary conditions such that "There is NOTHING in the difference between those selected and those NOT selected that would predispose God to choose those selected".
The PUREST definition for arbitrary selection is only found in Calvinism.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
JArthur001
Quote:
God is NOT willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance 2Peter 3.
has nothing to do with election
Quote:
God so Loved the WORLD that He gave... yes really!
election is not found in this verse...yes really
Well at least we AGREE on "something"!!
Jarthur001
Active Member
Jarthur001
Active Member
Not sure I would call Gods Word speculation.
Whadyagonnado Brother ?
BR ; You didn't respond to my inquiries yet . But I'll address something that has been brought to your attention numerous times by several of us . If you think that the drawing of John 12:32 meANT EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS EVER LIVED -- PAST , PRESENT AND FUTURE . ( Sorry about the caps -- it was unintentional ) that means you believe in universal atonement . Yet you do not believe in UA , do you ? So you have to alter what you once thought John 12;32 meant vs. what you now understand it to be -- the effectual drawing of His elect only .
You must come to this conclusion because if you think the drawing of John 12:32 is identical to the drawing of John 6:37,44,65 -- then whoa --the references in John refer to some , and not all people . Whatjagonnado? Logic and the anology of Scripture will bring you to the only biblical conclusion --- the only drawing in the Bible is fully effectual -- not partial -- it is not a mere wooing . When the Father draws , He brings certain ones to a saving knowledge of Himself . No one who is drawn remains unsaved .
BR ; You didn't respond to my inquiries yet . But I'll address something that has been brought to your attention numerous times by several of us . If you think that the drawing of John 12:32 meANT EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS EVER LIVED -- PAST , PRESENT AND FUTURE . ( Sorry about the caps -- it was unintentional ) that means you believe in universal atonement . Yet you do not believe in UA , do you ? So you have to alter what you once thought John 12;32 meant vs. what you now understand it to be -- the effectual drawing of His elect only .
You must come to this conclusion because if you think the drawing of John 12:32 is identical to the drawing of John 6:37,44,65 -- then whoa --the references in John refer to some , and not all people . Whatjagonnado? Logic and the anology of Scripture will bring you to the only biblical conclusion --- the only drawing in the Bible is fully effectual -- not partial -- it is not a mere wooing . When the Father draws , He brings certain ones to a saving knowledge of Himself . No one who is drawn remains unsaved .
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rippon said:
Post 65 - and then you did not respond --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1033987&postcount=65