Some false views of Election examined and refuted

[BobRyan]

Lets see if I understand you Bob. You are saying that Draw means both in John 12 and John 6? So do you also believe that all men come to Christ?

No but I believe that ONLY those drawn can come to Christ.

 

[Rippon]

Good BR , we're making progress . You do not believe that each and every person ever living upon earth has or shall be drawn to Christ . You now say that only those who are drawn can come to Christ . Very good ! I'll leave that much where it is for now -- we have agreement here . ( Is it only illusory ?)

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Rippon
If you think that the drawing of John 12:32 meANT EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS EVER LIVED -- PAST , PRESENT AND FUTURE . ( Sorry about the caps -- it was unintentional ) that means you believe in universal atonement . Yet you do not believe in UA , do you ?

Bob said
No

I believe in universal "Choice" for even in Calvinism the "drawing of God ENABLES what depravity DISABLES by way of choice".

Clearly Universal CHOICE - a result of universal DRAWING of ALL.

Good BR , we're making progress . You do not believe that each and every person ever living upon earth has or shall be drawn to Christ . You now say that only those who are drawn can come to Christ . Very good ! I'll leave that much where it is for now -- we have agreement here . ( Is it only illusory ?)

Not sure how "universal drawing of ALL" that results in "universal CHOICE" is coming across as "NOT drawing ALL" in your response above.

What did I say wrong - so that the point did not come across?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

BR , you had quoted Jarthur's remarks : " So do you also believe that all men come to Christ ?" Then you replied with : "No but I believe ONLY those drawn can come to Christ ."

So that is what led me to think that you had capitulated in the face of clear biblical reasoning from our side . Now you have changed your mind , and are now saying once more that everyone of the human race has been , and shall be drawn to Christ ?! Go back to John 6 AGAIN BR .

 

[BobRyan]

Err - umm.. "no changing of mind".

My position is that ALL are drawn so ALL are enabled to CHOOSE and the only people who CAN come to Christ are the ALL that are DRAWN.

So when I say to JArthur that I believe that the ONLY ones that CAN come to Christ are those who are DRAWN I am simpy stating my consistent - same-old viewpoint on this topic.

No change.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

Well then BR , you are back again to inconsistent , and illogical thinking . If all are drawn --- all are saved . Since we know all are not saved -- all are not drawn . The "all" of John 12:32 is a subset of humanity -- not each and every person ever . Again , you have to come to grips with the passages in John 6 . Those that that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus . "Those" , not everyone . Jesus said that He will lose none of all that He has been given by the Father . None of those He has been given -- not all of humanity -- those He has been given . No one can come to Jesus unless the Father has so enabled them . Not all -- those He enables . Get the biblical point ?

 

[BobRyan]

Well then BR , you are back again to inconsistent , and illogical thinking .

When I point out that I am NOT flip Flopping but remaining consistent and focused - you spin that as "inconsistant"??

That seems like a quite stretch to me sir.

I will let the objective reader decide that one for themselves.

If all are drawn --- all are saved .

Really? John 12:32 does not say that.

IT says ALL are drawn but not ALL are saved.

Are you just making it up?

Since we know all are not saved -- all are not drawn .

Again this is you using your own failed premise as proof for your conclusion. But as we saw above - John 12:32 does NOT say what your premise says "ALL drawn AND so ALL saved".

The "all" of John 12:32 is a subset of humanity

So "ALL" in John 12:32 needs to be DOWNSIZED to "the tiny FEW of Matt 7"????

And that edit of scripture is to be done "just because Calvinism needs it"???

Seems like we would need a better reason than that sir.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Some propose that John 6 says "ALL are drawn and so ALL are saved" --

But that is not what we find there --


John 6
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life;he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.


Again - Christ appeals to SEEING and then BELIEVING. In this case COMING to Christ AND ALSO believing.

SEEING Christ and the signs He performed called the people to CHOOSE whether to believe or not.

Christ does not say "I failed to pith your brain and still you do not believe" NOR does He say "I forcibly pithed your brain but still for some reason you are not believing" - THESE methods are not Christs - but Satan's.

Christ showed that HE was SHOWING them the bread of life - JUST as He showed to the disciples but these listeners were refusing to choose - the work of God - to BELIEVE. Of course many of these same people would later become Christians in Acts 2 - for now they were stuck in unbelief.

John 6
37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that [b]everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him[/b] will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''

The same model again - "You have SEEN ME - so BELIEVE" for the model is "EVERYONE who BEHOLDS the SON and BELIEVES.. will have eternal life" -
NO EMPHASIS is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I PITH WILL BE FORCED to BELIEVE". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;[/b] and I will raise him up on the last day.

Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing[/b] of God.

But he does not say “all that are drawn WILL choose to come” nor does He say “All that are drawn WILL come and WILL believe”, nor does the text says “God will only draw SOME”. (Yet this is exactly the distinctive teaching of Calvinism).

 

[Rippon]

Once again BR , you are not facing the biblical facts . You have not dealt with John 6 . Are you being evasive ?

Apparently you did not flip-flop afterall .You have remained true to your cherished beliefs on the subject-at-hand . Nevertheless , your ideas are inconsistent with Scripture and illogical to boot .

So you insist that John 12:32 says "ALL are drawn but not all are saved." Really BR ?! My NLTse says : And when I am lifted up from the earth , I will draw everyone to myself .

Strange , it doesn't mention what you said BR . It doesn't speak of "not all being saved ." Maybe you are not as familiar with the verse as you think you are .

Once again , drawing is an effectual bringing of folks to the Savior . All of the drawn will be saved . Not one of them will be lost .

 

[BobRyan]

Once again BR , you are not facing the biblical facts . You have not dealt with John 6 . Are you being evasive ?

Here is a link to a post where I went verse by verse through John 6 in response to your post.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1037539&postcount=88

Go there and read it and then let me know your response to the points raised.

Apparently you did not flip-flop afterall .You have remained true to your cherished beliefs on the subject-at-hand .

Now see - you stated something correctly and because of that sir -- we can both agree on that point.

Well done.

Nevertheless , your ideas are inconsistent with Scripture and illogical to boot .

Interesting wild-claim -- and now "the proof"??

So you insist that John 12:32 says "ALL are drawn but not all are saved." Really BR ?!

Nope. you would need an actual QUOTE from me to make that assertion -- I see that you have none.

Let me help you -- John 12:32 says "ALL are drawn"

It does not say as you so needed it to say "SO that means ALL are saved".

See?

My NLTse says : And when I am lifted up from the earth , I will draw everyone to myself

Ok.

"ALL"

means "EVERYONE" if using the NLT.

I think we can get some agreement there.

No problem -- but I still don't see any text in all of scripture saying "ALL are saved" or "EVERYONE Is saved" -- do you?

So my point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

I am glad that you have seen fit to mention passages in John 6 . However , your treatment of them does a disservice to the biblical meaning of each .

Bob , I am not among those who "propose that John 6 says ALL are drawn and so ALL are saved ."

I insist that all of those so drawn will be saved . That's a big difference . The drawing brings them savingly to Christ .

Your brain-pithing ramblings are pithiful

 

[BobRyan]

I am glad that you have seen fit to mention passages in John 6 . However , your treatment of them does a disservice to the biblical meaning of each .

Empty accusations are a dime a dozen. The point is to actually show your words have substance. To do that sir you have to actually "do the math"

All you have there is accusation by itself.

Bob , I am not among those who "propose that John 6 says ALL are drawn and so ALL are saved ."
or
I insist that all of those so drawn will be saved

I guess you mean that John 12:32 says "I will so draw all"??

And then John 6 "all so drawn will be saved"??

Funny - but I don't find that wording in scripture - just in your "preference statements".

I fully agree with you sir that this is what you would have preferred to find written in either John 6 or John 12.

But as it is - we just have the text of scripture.

ONLY those drawn CAN be saved but no text says "ALL drawn ARE saved" all we have is "I WILL DRAW ALL unto Me".

Maybe you would be better off just sticking to scripture in this discussion.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

BR , in your post # 87 you indeed said the following about John 12:32 : " It says ALL are drawn but not ALL are saved ." Your words Bob , not mine . I wasn't making that up . You said it . But I am glad to hear that you now disagree with it .

In John 6 there is no reference to "I will draw all unto Me . Try again Bob .

 

[BobRyan]

My use of the quote marks was not accurate I meant to write

John 12:32 It says "ALL are drawin" it does not say "all are saved"

I stand corrected in my quote mark error.

Thank you for pointing it out sir.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"John 6 says ALL are drawn and so ALL are saved ." (Rippon)

GE:

Only thing to know is: IS IT TRUE, OR IS IT NOT TRUE, GOD'S DRAWING IS SAVINGLY?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Answer:

"I insist that all of those so drawn will be saved . ... The drawing brings them savingly to Christ ." -- Rippon.

GE:

If not, God's drawing draws men to damnation - that's where the Arminians make you land up.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE’s post: Answer:"I insist that all of those so drawn will be saved . ... The drawing brings them savingly to Christ ." -- Rippon.

GE: If not, God's drawing draws men to damnation - that's where the Arminians make you land up.

HP: Now how do you arrive at that conclusion concerning the Arminians?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Now how do you arrive at that conclusion concerning the Arminians?

GE:

That's for the Arminians to explain.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: That's for the Arminians to explain.

HP: That’s real good GE. The burden of proof lies upon you, not them. If you are going to draw a conclusion of another, the least you can do is to explain to the list how such a conclusion is to be logically drawn. I personally say that the conclusion you have accused the Arminians of is nothing short of a fabricated concoction of your own imagination.

Prove me wrong. Show the list how logic demands the conclusion you have claimed is necessitated or mandated by their beliefs.

 

[Jarthur001]

My use of the quote marks was not accurate I meant to write

John 12:32 It says "ALL are drawin" it does not say "all are saved"

I stand corrected in my quote mark error.

Thank you for pointing it out sir.

in Christ,

Bob

helkō

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel



If I do not care much for the game of baseball, and someone ask me to go to a game chances are I will say no, for in baseball..there is no draw to me. If someone says, if you go to the game with me, I will buy you lunch at the best steak house in town, I now have a draw to go.



A draw comes with a desire to go. As seen above helko can even mean dragged off. A inward power.



So..are you saying that when the Bible says all men are drawn to Christ...have a inward power to come to Him.....are dragged off to Him by their desire to come to Him....that some though they have this draw....this inward desire to come....that when they come because of this desire ...this desire that God gave them...God will not save them?