Some of the best Conditional “IF” Statements in the NT

[JonC]

No, it's not "oxymoronic"...

"lose" would be a statement of conditionality............
"eternal" would be a temporal statement of duration.

It's so simple...
But no Calvinist preacher wants to teach you the difference. (if they even know it).

There's no oxymoron there...but far be it from logic, reason or the Scriptures to threaten Augustinianism.

I think that the confusion here is not Augustine but Webster. Many of us grew up with words having less than subjective meanings (those of us 40 years old or older, anyway). We also had to memorize multiplication tables because those didn't change either. But time....now that's different. That changes and we simply have to learn to change with it.

Back in my day this is how eternal was defined:

Eternal – without beginning or end; lasting forever; opposed to temporal

But back in my day if we invented our own meanings we would get a whooping from the teacher, and another when we got home. They stifled our creative self-expression back then and forced us into a narrow box called "reality". That's why we are pretty good at our jobs but not so good at video games. And that's why we do not understand "eternal life" to be a temporary sort of thing.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

ok............

But, it still has nothing to do with Conditionality.

The debate over "Eternal Security" has to do with Conditions........not duration, or frankly, anything temporal.

John suggested that the statement I critiqued was "oxymoronic?

That's not possible inasmuch as well, my review of his statement holds.

In a way......"Websters" isn't Everything.

He suggested that a Conditional security couldn't be made sense of if the believer's fellowship with Christ was Eternal.

I don't think that webster's covers that.

I also think that you are a peacemaker by nature and your argument is designed to establish common ground and therefore engender peace between believers......but, sometimes common ground can obscure the issues.
"eternal Security" has nothing to do with Conditionality and I stand by that.

I love that about you (I've read you for months even though I haven't commented in ages)..

but.......yeah..............you're being a Peace-maker..
Not fighting for precise truth I think.

I do respect that about you brother. God bless you for that.

And no.........the argument is with Augustine....not Webster.

 

[JonShaff]

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Back to this...

If a sheep perishes, was Christ not telling the truth that they "shall NEVER perish"?

There is no conditional if statement here. So please don't add one.

I also see 3 absolutes that will never change

Christ knows His sheep

They will follow Christ

They will NEVER perish.

What's there to argue about?

Why hate such an amazing display of God's love and mercy?

 

[JonC]

ok............

But, it still has nothing to do with Conditionality.

The debate over "Eternal Security" has to do with Conditions........not duration, or frankly, anything temporal.

John suggested that the statement I critiqued was "oxymoronic?

That's not possible inasmuch as well, my review of his statement holds.

In a way......"Websters" isn't Everything.

He suggested that a Conditional security couldn't be made sense of if the believer's fellowship with Christ was Eternal.

I don't think that webster's covers that.

I also think that you are a peacemaker by nature and your argument is designed to establish common ground and therefore engender peace between believers......but, sometimes common ground can obscure the issues.
"eternal Security" has nothing to do with Conditionality and I stand by that.

I love that about you (I've read you for months even though I haven't commented in ages)..

but.......yeah..............you're being a Peace-maker..
Not fighting for precise truth I think.

I do respect that about you brother. God bless you for that.

And no.........the argument is with Augustine....not Webster.

Thank you for your kind words. While I was being a bit sarcastic (I hope not caustic), and I do believe that "eternal life" carries certain implications of assurance, I understand your disagreement.

There are some issues where I believe less “precise”, or less dogmatic, stands are perhaps the more biblical approach. Not because of the love we have for the brethren (although this is important) but because of nature of what is revealed in Scripture of the topic (eschatological issues often fall into this category). Sometimes a doctrine that is important to us can appear a bit off kilter because the biblical lens does not focus as sharp on the teaching as we would desire.

I do not believe eternal security is one of these doctrines. You see, I also believe that the life we are given in Christ is conditional. I see this poured out in the apostolic writings, particularly those of John, Paul, and Peter. We are to abide in Christ as He abides in the Father. Those who endure shall be saved. This is conditional.

The difference is that while I believe that the life we have in Christ is conditional, I also believe that it is God who meets the condition. It is the faithfulness of God that makes this life in Christ eternal.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

John....let's dissect your Scripture carefully:

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Back to this...

If a sheep perishes, was Christ not telling the truth that they "shall NEVER perish"

?
Read the Scripture closely............his sheep "follow him".....thus, presumably one you might think to be a sheep who does not "folllow him" is not a sheep..........
non-followers are not sheep..

There is no conditional if statement here. So please don't add one.

There are absolutely "conditional statements" here...namely, what makes a sheep a sheep....and those conditions are:
1.) They hear his voice
2.) he knows them
3.) they follow him.

I also see 3 absolutes that will never change
Christ knows His sheep

Correct.

They will follow Christ

correct.

They will NEVER perish

.
correct.

What's there to argue about?

Those sheep who follow him to the end whom he knows by name:
Mat 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also denybefore my Father which is in heaven.

Why hate such an amazing display of God's love and mercy?

I "HATE" it?????

Yes, clearly, I "HATE" God's "love" and "mercy".
What ever possible explanation could there be, but that I simply "HATE" God's love and mercy.

This is boring.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The difference is that while I believe that the life we have in Christ is conditional, I also believe that it is God who meets the condition. It is the faithfulness of God that makes this life in Christ eternal.

That's also true........the issue of "Eternal Security" is sorta a trick-box....I think.

God is, of course, always faithful.

The real question is whether it is possible for man to choose to "fall away".

There's no questioning God's faithfulness, there's only questioning whether man's possible decision to be once a follower, and subsequently to choose to reject Christ or "fall away"....that's the only question.

It has nothing to do with God's nature......he is perfectly faithful.
The question is whether man is able to have once believed, and then to fall away or cease to follow him.

Whatever the truth is...I don't think it's so simple as screaming John chapter 10 at full volume as though that completely explains all Calvinist minutiae, and as if all non Calvinists have never read it...it's not that simple guys...it's just not.

 

[JonShaff]

We can move on to another passage?

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You are kept unto salvation by the Power of God.

 

[JonC]

That's also true........the issue of "Eternal Security" is sorta a trick-box....I think.

God is, of course, always faithful.

The real question is whether it is possible for man to choose to "fall away".

There's no questioning God's faithfulness, there's only questioning whether man's possible decision to be once a follower, and subsequently to choose to reject Christ or "fall away"....that's the only question.

It has nothing to do with God's nature......he is perfectly faithful.
The question is whether man is able to have once believed, and then to fall away or cease to follow him.

Whatever the truth is...I don't think it's so simple as screaming John chapter 10 at full volume as though that completely explains all Calvinist minutiae, and as if all non Calvinists have never read it...it's not that simple guys...it's just not.

I agree that we cannot (or should not) base doctrine on a single verse or passage and probably not on parables. Scripture validates itself. I actually never considered John 10 as the primary evidence of the security of the believer. If you have a moment, I will try to explain why I believe so strongly in the doctrine (even apart from the passages that we have and undoubtedly will discuss here) as there seems to be a point where we may be talking past one another. (Sorry for the length...just read it fast and it'll seem shorter).

We believe what has been evidenced to us as being true.

I recall believing that the song “Winder Wonderland” contained the lyric “later on we’ll perspire, as we dream by the fire.” Why? Because it was evidence to be true by my mishearing of the song sung. And there are deeper beliefs. At a much younger age I believed in Santa Claus as his existence was evidenced to me through tradition, culture, and an affirmation of presents under the tree. As I matured my own thinking of reality proved those evidences false.

As a young Christian I “believed” in the doctrine “Once Saved, Always Saved” because that was a doctrine of my church. In truth, I did not really believe it so much as I held or accepted it to be true as an un-evidenced concession. As a Southern Baptist that’s simply what we believed. There were other beliefs that I held because I convinced myself they were true (I supplied the evidence for that belief through self-persuasion). And this was the reason I changed my major in college and later continued to seminary. I was convinced, based on my own experiences that churches had let the teaching of doctrine slip in favor of a more dogmatic approach to several fundamental views (a belief evidenced by my own subjective experience).

There is a belief in God that is not conversion, for James tells us that even the demons believe. We can cognitively believe something is true without that belief having a fundamental effect in our lives. The evidence of God is visible in all of creation. But it is not a belief in the existence of God that Scripture offers as salvation. Christianity is more than a belief that Jesus Christ is the Savior; it is the belief that Jesus is our Savior, and there is a difference. I believed the former for a long time before I came to believe the latter.

When I was converted it was because God had revealed to me the Truth that the gospel teaches, that is Jesus Christ. He had unveiled in my heart and mind the Man and God behind the message. God Himself evidenced the truth of the gospel message.

We believe what has been evidenced to us as being true, and that belief is ALWAYS dependent on the evidence. There are no exceptions. If it is superficial evidence, then it is a superficial belief. But for a belief to be overturned, the evidence of that belief has to be demonstrated false. For me to lose my salvation would be for me to reject what I believe. Or to put it another way, it would be for something or someone else to overshadow God. And the only way that this is possible is if our conversion is based on our own perception and human persuasion rather than a supernatural work of God.

So what is at stake when we debate eternal security is the doctrine of God because redemption is God offering of Himself. The evidence that substantiates belief in true conversion is not a knowledge of the gospel message (or even a belief that it is true) but God Himself revealed to us supernaturally resulting in a transformed life (we have new desires, a different inclination of will, we are new creatures).

 

[Samuels]

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Please consider this just as a "heads up" ... for I duzn't mean to offend.

You have NO idea what the above verse (27) is saying, meaning, warning, and etc.
Do you hear Jesus' voice?
Does He know (approve of, Vine) you?
Do you really follow Him, e.g. obey His commands, etc.?

 

[Samuels]

... I also believe that the life we are given in Christ is conditional.

Let us rest in this, and have the correct and acceptable heart attitude before God,
while we do our best to heed the many dire warnings given to us in the NT.

IMO, only God's elect (chosen ones) will heed these copious warnings, i.e. act on them!

 

[JonShaff]

Please consider this just as a "heads up" ... for I duzn't mean to offend.

You have NO idea what the above verse (27) is saying, meaning, warning, and etc.
Do you hear Jesus' voice?
Does He know (approve of, Vine) you?
Do you really follow Him, e.g. obey His commands, etc.?

Your incoherent babbling and pseudo-prophet posting is getting old.

 

[JonC]

Please consider this just as a "heads up" ... for I duzn't mean to offend.

You have NO idea what the above verse (27) is saying, meaning, warning, and etc.
Do you hear Jesus' voice?
Does He know (approve of, Vine) you?
Do you really follow Him, e.g. obey His commands, etc.?

No offence inteded, but do you not?

 

[Samuels]

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You are kept unto salvation by the Power of God.

As always, it depends on WHO Peter was addressing.
Was he addressing FAITHFUL believers?
Was he also addressing UNFAITHFUL believers?

E.G. Was he addressing believers who were involved in habitual unrepentant sinning?

Oh, [Insult edited] exclaims, "I wuzn't considering that!"

 

[Samuels]

Do you hear Jesus' voice?
Does He know (approve of, Vine) you?
Do you really follow Him, e.g. obey His commands, etc.?

Your incoherent babbling and pseudo-prophet posting is getting old.

For this you should be banned.
For you are wasting everyone's time.

 

[Samuels]

Do you hear Jesus' voice?
Does He know (approve of, Vine) you?
Do you really follow Him, e.g. obey His commands, etc.?

No offence inteded, but do you not?

I know, I offend many with God's Truth as written in the NT.
Interpreted correctly through the Spirit, I mean.

God's Plan was for His chosen pastors to be taught "all things" by the Holy Spirit.
This spiritual Truth was supposed to be passed on to Jesus' sheep.
But, Satan has deceived the church into miserably failing to do this!
(Of course, many pastors were NOT called of God to be such.)

ALL of the blessed 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11) is to be called of God (not of man).

 

[JonShaff]

As always, it depends on WHO Peter was addressing.
Was he addressing FAITHFUL believers?
Was he also addressing UNFAITHFUL believers?

E.G. Was he addressing believers who were involved in habitual unrepentant sinning?

Oh, the Jonster exclaims, "I wuzn't considering that!"

So where is the bible for unfaithful believers? lol

 

[JonShaff]

For this you should be banned.
For you are wasting everyone's time.

Sir, do you follow Jesse Morrell?

 

[JonShaff]

As always, it depends on WHO Peter was addressing.
Was he addressing FAITHFUL believers?
Was he also addressing UNFAITHFUL believers?

E.G. Was he addressing believers who were involved in habitual unrepentant sinning?

Oh, the Jonster exclaims, "I wuzn't considering that!"

And if one has a 1st grade reading comprehension ability they'd understand that Peter is describing the "inheritance" which isn't set forth with any conditions (outside of Faith). The focus in that passage is not the Person, but the Gift of God.

 

[Samuels]

I sincerely hope that the [Insult edited] does not represent the opinions of this Christian forum!
If he does not, it sure would be nice to converse to those who do.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your kind words. While I was being a bit sarcastic (I hope not caustic), and I do believe that "eternal life" carries certain implications of assurance, I understand your disagreement.

There are some issues where I believe less “precise”, or less dogmatic, stands are perhaps the more biblical approach. Not because of the love we have for the brethren (although this is important) but because of nature of what is revealed in Scripture of the topic (eschatological issues often fall into this category). Sometimes a doctrine that is important to us can appear a bit off kilter because the biblical lens does not focus as sharp on the teaching as we would desire.

I do not believe eternal security is one of these doctrines. You see, I also believe that the life we are given in Christ is conditional. I see this poured out in the apostolic writings, particularly those of John, Paul, and Peter. We are to abide in Christ as He abides in the Father. Those who endure shall be saved. This is conditional.

The difference is that while I believe that the life we have in Christ is conditional, I also believe that it is God who meets the condition. It is the faithfulness of God that makes this life in Christ eternal.

Since it is God who will complete the salvation process, as per Hebrews 8, that God the Father places in Jesus and keeps us in Him, Jesus as High Priest keeps us, Holy Spirit sealed us, so we have eternal life, as cannot be lost again!