"some of you" believe not

[Amy.G]

I beg to differ Amy.

I know. :tongue3:

The Lord does not speak idle words.

No He doesn't. That's why you need to look at the context (what comes before and what comes after) to understand what Jesus is teaching. Otherwise we will get our doctrines all messed up.

There is a reason we are told the net broke.

Jesus is not teaching anything about the net breaking. When you get hung up on that one sentence, you are missing the entire point. Look at the context.

 

[Iconoclast]

What a shock that Iconoclast doesn't understand. :laugh:

I understand allegorical error as soon as I see it.You and others who persist in error are drifting past the truth everyday now.You just make up whatever you feel like,and are your own authority.No one believes what you do...nobody:wavey:

Most of "your"error is when you take parables and abuse them ,,,,just like this one

 

[Winman]

I know. :tongue3:



No He doesn't. That's why you need to look at the context (what comes before and what comes after) to understand what Jesus is teaching. Otherwise we will get our doctrines all messed up.




Jesus is not teaching anything about the net breaking. When you get hung up on that one sentence, you are missing the entire point. Look at the context.

Amy, I could plainly quote Stephen where he said the Jews he was preaching to did always resist the Holy Ghost.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

If the Holy Spirit was not drawing these men, then they could not have been said to be resisting the Holy Spirit. A fish that is swimming free is not resisting being pulled in, but a fish that is on a hook or in a net.

There are MANY scriptures that refute Irresistible Grace, for example the story of king Agrippa;

Acts 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

You can't say the Holy Spirit was not drawing Agrippa, as he confessed he was almost persuaded to be a Christian.

This passage not only refutes Irresistible Grace, it also refutes Total Inability, as Paul said he knew that Agrippa BELIEVED the prophets.

You just keep on denying scripture, but remember, we are saved by trusting the word of God.

 

[Winman]

I understand allegorical error as soon as I see it.You and others who persist in error are drifting past the truth everyday now.You just make up whatever you feel like,and are your own authority.No one believes what you do...nobody:wavey:

Most of "your"error is when you take parables and abuse them ,,,,just like this one

All you understand is what your Reformed puppet masters tell you.

And by the way, this was a true event, not a parable.

 

[DrJamesAch]

What a shock that Iconoclast doesn't understand. :laugh:

Not to mention Amy's analysis of what "all fisherman" know is incorrect (as if "all fisherman" know what it's like to fish with nets in Israel). The men were washing their nets which fishermen do after their done either at evening time which or if they stay all night, when the sun begins to rise. The disciples went back out on the water while others were still washing their nets which means it was not full daylight. They try to mend them and get all the junk out of the nets at sunrise so they can lay the net out and let it dry, and because it's much cooler cleaning the net before the sun fully rises. The water takes quite a while to warm up and you can still catch a lot of fish up to the 3rd hour of the day (9am your time) depending on how hot it is.

So to say the water was so hot that there was no fish is nuts. It wasn't that hot yet. Notice the disciples didn't correct Jesus by telling Him "Lord, it's not the right time to do this". They said "we've been at it all night and caught nothing so we sure aint bout to catch any now, our luck has run out". Thus Jesus showed them that He can provide when it seems we have run out of resources, AND the net breaking had an additional application to the story.

 

[Iconoclast]

All you understand is what your Reformed puppet masters tell you.

And by the way, this was a true event, not a parable.

My reformed brothers remain in the realm of truth.You depart and do not realize how much you are "drifting past" truth.You are in danger ,Winman.
I will follow the saints who were before me, and those who will follow afterward. You keep on like a lone ranger....inventing novelties:wavey::thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I could plainly quote Stephen where he said the Jews he was preaching to did always resist the Holy Ghost.

Yes, they resisted God's messengers, the prophets, including Christ.
But that has nothing to do with fish breaking a net! You're trying to prove your point by using scripture that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

You just keep on denying scripture, but remember, we are saved by trusting the word of God.

I do not deny scripture. That's what unbelievers do. You cannot question my salvation.

Just because I disagree with your interpretation of God's word does NOT mean I don't trust it!

 

[Winman]

Not to mention Amy's analysis of what "all fisherman" know is incorrect (as if "all fisherman" know what it's like to fish with nets in Israel). The men were washing their nets which fishermen do after their done either at evening time which or if they stay all night, when the sun begins to rise. The disciples went back out on the water while others were still washing their nets which means it was not full daylight. They try to mend them and get all the junk out of the nets at sunrise so they can lay the net out and let it dry, and because it's much cooler cleaning the net before the sun fully rises. The water takes quite a while to warm up and you can still catch a lot of fish up to the 3rd hour of the day (9am your time) depending on how hot it is.

So to say the water was so hot that there was no fish is nuts. It wasn't that hot yet. Notice the disciples didn't correct Jesus by telling Him "Lord, it's not the right time to do this". They said "we've been at it all night and caught nothing so we sure aint bout to catch any now, our luck has run out". Thus Jesus showed them that He can provide when it seems we have run out of resources, AND the net breaking had an additional application to the story.

Yes, if we cast out the net (preach the gospel) many will be saved, but not ALL.

Calvinists know this, that is why they have to make up the false doctrine of "general" and "effectual" calls. There is not a single word in scripture to support this false doctrine.

 

[Amy.G]

Not to mention Amy's analysis of what "all fisherman" know is incorrect (as if "all fisherman" know what it's like to fish with nets in Israel).

Yes all fisherman do know that fish seek cooler water during the day. I learned to fish from my dad, who went out on the lake many nights to fish!

You apparently aren't much of a fisherman! :laugh:

 

[Winman]

My reformed brothers remain in the realm of truth.You depart and do not realize how much you are "drifting past" truth.You are in danger ,Winman.
I will follow the saints who were before me, and those who will follow afterward. You keep on like a lone ranger....inventing novelties:wavey::thumbs:

Your Reformed brothers won't get you into heaven. And you might be careful who you follow and where.

 

[DrJamesAch]

I understand allegorical error as soon as I see it.You and others who persist in error are drifting past the truth everyday now.You just make up whatever you feel like,and are your own authority.No one believes what you do...nobody

Most of "your"error is when you take parables and abuse them ,,,,just like this one

You couldn't interpret a bowl of alphabet soup with Vanna White giving you free vowels let alone proper exegesis. If you're going to use the same lines all the time, try to be original once in a while. I can see cut and pasting creeds, but cutting and pasting your stale put-downs from your dinkdading templates is ....:sleep::sleeping_2:

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, if we cast out the net (preach the gospel) many will be saved, but not ALL.

We all know that. And if you can find a post of mine where I spoke about effectual and general calls I'll give you a million dollars! :laugh:

 

[DrJamesAch]

Yes all fisherman do know that fish seek cooler water during the day. I learned to fish from my dad, who went out on the lake many nights to fish!

You apparently aren't much of a fisherman! :laugh:

Did you read what I said? Apparently not. It wasn't "DURING" the day yet. The day just started and the water wasn't that hot yet so that had nothing to do with them catching more or less fish at that time of day. My father still uses a net (I prefer Daiwa!). Even during the day you can still catch a lot of fish where there are trees hanging over the water or near embankments. I am not disagreeing that it's better at night, but that's not only because the fish are just a little easier to catch, it also keeps you from getting sunburned. I personally prefer sunburn over mosquitoes. But your analysis that it was too hot doesn't fit considering the time of day it was.

 

[Winman]

We all know that. And if you can find a post of mine where I spoke about effectual and general calls I'll give you a million dollars! :laugh:

I don't recall you personally ever speaking about a general and effectual call, but you certainly seem to be a strong supporter of Calvinism, and this is one of their doctrines.

The scriptures teach that the same gospel is preached to all men, but the gospel does not profit those who do not believe.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

What the scriptures truly teach is that the word of God works effectually in them that believe.

1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Here is another example of Calvinism teaching the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture truly says.

Calvinism teaches that the effectual word works to make one believe.

The scriptures say the word of God works effectually IN YOU THAT BELIEVE.

How can any honest person not see that Calvinism says the exact opposite of scripture? You see it over and over again.

 

[webdog]

We all know that. And if you can find a post of mine where I spoke about effectual and general calls I'll give you a million dollars! :laugh:

Do you have a million bucks or is this offer tatamount to the offer of salvation to the non elect?

 

[The Biblicist]

Calvinists simply cannot understand how someone can be drawn but resist and get away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypcTg7hSWZU

This is even shown in scripture;

Luk 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

Were all of the fish in the net drawn toward the boat? YES.

Were all of these fish that were drawn toward the boat caught? NO.

You are not serious are you????? Didn't you read the text close enough where it said "their net broke"??????

Second, in John 6:44-45 there is no "broken nets" and "all" are "taught by God" that is the quotation from Isaiah 54:13 and it is followed by Christ's application that demands "EVERY MAN" thus taught comes to Christ - no broken net, none lost.

If you had read your proof text more closely you would have had nothing to post about!

 

[The Biblicist]

Cal just cannot help themselves. They have to create a false position in order to be able to knock it down.

Where did I mischaracterize anyone's position???? Where did I create a false position?

If you are going to make accusations please back them up or at least have the courtesy to point to what you think might be an mischaracterization or a created false position.

We can conduct this in a gentlemanly way if all sides will act like gentleman.

 

[Winman]

You are not serious are you????? Didn't you read the text close enough where it said "their net broke"??????

Second, in John 6:44-45 there is no "broken nets" and "all" are "taught by God" that is the quotation from Isaiah 54:13 and it is followed by Christ's application that demands "EVERY MAN" thus taught comes to Christ - no broken net, none lost.

If you had read your proof text more closely you would have had nothing to post about!

John 6:44 says that no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn. It does not say everyone who is drawn will come.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Every fish that I caught today was drawn in by my rod and reel. That does not mean that I caught every fish, some jumped off the hook and got away.

A little child could easily understand this difference, you are just making yourself look foolish by playing dumb. You understand the difference easily. If you don't, I feel sorry for you.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't recall you personally every speaking about a general and effectual call, but you certainly seem to be a strong supporter of Calvinism, and this is one of their doctrines.

I've never studied effectual/general call. The Bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (the gospel).

The scriptures teach that the same gospel is preached to all men, but the gospel does not profit those who do not believe.

Correct.

What the scriptures truly teach is that the word of God works effectually in them that believe.

1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Yes, God's is working in those who believe. What does that statement have to do with Calvinism?

Calvinism teaches that the effectual word works to make one believe.

Never heard that. God's word does whatever He intends it to do.

 

[Amy.G]

Do you have a million bucks ...

I wish!!!! :laugh:

That would solve a lot of problems! I would even give you some WD! :love2: