Some quotes for Catholics to ponder...

[Matt Black]

If the Catholic believes that the New Birth is baptism.
If Jesus said: Except a man be born again you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
If this new birth is speaking of a relationship, then no Catholic has a relationship with Christ as long as they believe that. A little bit of water doesn't give you a relationship with Jesus Christ. And that is what the RCC teaches. Look it up in your Catechism under New Birth or Born Again. One does not establish a relationship with Christ through baptism. It is impossible.

Hold on! You can't have it both ways: a post or two ago you said that Christianity is not about head knowledge; now you're saying it's about correct teaching. Which is it?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Yes I'm born again

Could you please tell us how you were born again?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, I don't want to spend time with lengthy explanations either, suffice it to say that the RCC Catechism defines "born again" as baptism. If you also believe it is baptism you must realize that baptism cannot give you a relationship with Jesus Christ. Atoms of oxygen and hydrogen making up molecules of water do not give life--not physical life; not spiritual life.

Jesus saith unto him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.
Jesus did not say: "No man cometh unto the Father but by baptism," which is the heretical belief of the RCC.
The New Birth establishes the relationship between a person and Christ, by that individual entering into God's family and becoming His child. He is born, by the Word and by the Spirit into the family of God.

That is the only way to become a child of God--the new birth.
Otherwise one will forever remain a child of the devil, on their way to Hell.

The reason the catholic church believes that Baptism equates with being born again is really simple.
1)The kingdom of God is in existance right now.
2) Being a Jew is not entry into the Kindom of God
3) doing works of the law will not gain entry into the kindom of God
4) Circumcision has been done away with and is in a way replaced by baptism.
5) Baptism gains entry into the nationhood of the Kingdom of God
6) there are certain rights,privilages and responsibilities upon citizenship.
7) a new nature given upon citizenship through baptism.
8) Temporal and spiritual life are not seperate but work together in this kingdom of God.

Their paradigm is different from ours.

 

[Matt Black]

There's also the 'plain reading' of John 3:5 and I Peter 3:21

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There's also the 'plain reading' of John 3:5 and I Peter 3:21

You also forget the plain reading of Acts 2:37-38.

But then I always wonder why this is ignored in Acts 16:31

 

[Matt Black]

Or indeed Mark 16:16.

 

[DHK]

Hold on! You can't have it both ways: a post or two ago you said that Christianity is not about head knowledge; now you're saying it's about correct teaching. Which is it?

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

It is not about simple head knowledge; it is about correct doctrine and the application thereof. John 3:5 says nothing about baptism. It uses the word "water." The word "water" is used 367 times in the Bible. Does it refer to baptism every time it is used? Of course not. Neither does it refer to baptism here. The context is entirely against that rendering. Nicodemus would not be thinking of baptism at all.

The New Birth is speaking of a relationship. If one doesn't have a relationship with Christ they are condemned forever to Hell. Those are the blunt facts. Look further in John 3:

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does baptism do? It gets you wet, and that is all.
What does belief in Christ do? It obtains for you eternal life and establishes a relationship with Jesus Christ. Baptism does not save and never will. Faith alone in Christ alone saves.

 

[DHK]

The reason the catholic church believes that Baptism equates with being born again is really simple.
1)The kingdom of God is in existance right now.
2) Being a Jew is not entry into the Kindom of God
3) doing works of the law will not gain entry into the kindom of God
4) Circumcision has been done away with and is in a way replaced by baptism.
5) Baptism gains entry into the nationhood of the Kingdom of God
6) there are certain rights,privilages and responsibilities upon citizenship.
7) a new nature given upon citizenship through baptism.
8) Temporal and spiritual life are not seperate but work together in this kingdom of God.

Their paradigm is different from ours.

If the paradigm is different it sends people to hell; it is not biblical; Their paradigm is of works, and not of grace by faith in Christ. Those are the blunt facts. Baptism doesn't save. Only Christ can save.

 

[quantumfaith]

If the members here are so sure of their theological positions and are so inlcined to defend their faith, then why the dearth of Catholic members? Why are the BB adminsitrators denying them access?

 

[DHK]

I wasn't referring to that; I was referring, if you want an example close to home, to those on these boards, Baptists in particular, who disagree on such matters. You still haven't squared that epistemological circle.

Those who post in this forum don't follow the teachings of the Holy Spirit. Look back and see the Scripture that I posted. They follow the magesterium, their catechism, their creed, their church, but not the Bible. The teachings of the Holy Spirit are found in the Bible, and the Holy Spirit leads through his Word, not through any other authority. Thus the doctrine of sola scriptura is a hated doctrine among the RCC.

 

[quantumfaith]

Those who post in this forum don't follow the teachings of the Holy Spirit. Look back and see the Scripture that I posted. They follow the magesterium, their catechism, their creed, their church, but not the Bible. The teachings of the Holy Spirit are found in the Bible, and the Holy Spirit leads through his Word, not through any other authority. Thus the doctrine of sola scriptura is a hated doctrine among the RCC.

I think assuming the RCC's consider Sola Scriptura as "hated" doctrine is a bit terse and perhaps over reaching.

 

[Matt Black]

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

It is not about simple head knowledge; it is about correct doctrine and the application thereof.

One doesn't know doctrine apart from 'head knowledge'.

John 3:5 says nothing about baptism. It uses the word "water." The word "water" is used 367 times in the Bible. Does it refer to baptism every time it is used? Of course not. Neither does it refer to baptism here. The context is entirely against that rendering. Nicodemus would not be thinking of baptism at all.

And you know this how, exactly?

The New Birth is speaking of a relationship. If one doesn't have a relationship with Christ they are condemned forever to Hell. Those are the blunt facts.

Correct. And how does one have that relationship? Look further in John 3:

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does baptism do? It gets you wet, and that is all.
What does belief in Christ do? It obtains for you eternal life and establishes a relationship with Jesus Christ. Baptism does not save and never will. Faith alone in Christ alone saves.

You've only quoted half the story and ignored the earlier verses posted by me and TS which state the salvific effects of baptism. You can't just excise verses from the Bible or 'explain them away' with smoke and mirrors like that!

 

[Matt Black]

Those who post in this forum don't follow the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

You post in this forum! And I was referring to Baptists, if you look.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

One doesn't know doctrine apart from 'head knowledge'. And you know this how, exactly?

Correct. And how does one have that relationship? Look further in John 3:

You've only quoted half the story and ignored the earlier verses posted by me and TS which state the salvific effects of baptism. You can't just excise verses from the Bible or 'explain them away' with smoke and mirrors like that!

I'm not entirely in agreement with you matt as I pointed out acts 16 excludes as a means of salvation but mentions it later as a result of belief.

29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Though admitedly they seem to go hand in hand throughout scripture. However, is baptism the result of and an expression of belief? Which is salvific? The belief or the baptism. I know what a Catholic would say but lets say the Jailor died just before his baptism?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

If the members here are so sure of their theological positions and are so inlcined to defend their faith, then why the dearth of Catholic members? Why are the BB adminsitrators denying them access?

It has nothing to do with not being sure.

It goes back about six or seven years to a stretch when the BaptistBoard was inundated with Catholics, atheists, and liberals.

Basically what happened is that the Gospel and Baptists in general were under constant attacks from these three groups and the boards became very contentious. So much so, in fact, that it drove a lot of people away.

This led to the decision that non-Baptists would be accepted on an individual basis, pending approval, but that board would remain a board largely for fellowship among Baptists and for the purpose of edifying fellow Baptists.

If you go to the main page, you'll notice a huge library of archived posts from the early 00's. If you have time to go through them, you'll see that there were a lot of Catholics here at one point.

For the record, at the time, I was furious about this purge of non-Baptists but, having been on other message boards and seen the damage that atheists and mockers can cause to a Christian message board, I now see the wisdom in the move to restrict Baptistboard to Baptists.

 

[quantumfaith]

It has nothing to do with not being sure.

It goes back about six or seven years to a stretch when the BaptistBoard was inundated with Catholics, atheists, and liberals.

Basically what happened is that the Gospel and Baptists in general were under constant attacks from these three groups and the boards became very contentious. So much so, in fact, that it drove a lot of people away.

This led to the decision that non-Baptists would be accepted on an individual basis, pending approval, but that board would remain a board largely for fellowship among Baptists and for the purpose of edifying fellow Baptists.

If you go to the main page, you'll notice a huge library of archived posts from the early 00's. If you have time to go through them, you'll see that there were a lot of Catholics here at one point.

For the record, at the time, I was furious about this purge of non-Baptists but, having been on other message boards and seen the damage that atheists and mockers can cause to a Christian message board, I now see the wisdom in the move to restrict Baptistboard to Baptists.

Thanks for the info. I do know the "challenge" presented by the athiests, as I sometimes find myself "apologizing" on the religion boards of Amazon, which are havens for skeptics, naturalists, agnostics and militant athiests. I have not encountered Catholics who sought to " offend" me in anyway.