Some shall depart from the faith.

[Dr. Walter]

Consider who He is talking to. There were Jews who were believers in Jesus Christ. Now, a believer is born again, period. The bible clearly declares that. However, some of the Jewish believers didn't follow Jesus. One reason for this was that the Pharisees would put them out of the synagogue, and they loved the praise of men more than that of God.

Jesus, talking to some Jewish believers amongst a crowd that obviously also contains unregenerate Jews, tells the believers that if they continue in His word they will be disciples indeed. If they do this they will also know the truth and will be made free by it. He is talking to people who have already believed, they are already born again. His message to them is to continue. Don't be concerned with what man thinks, or with what man does, rather follow me and you'll be my disciples and will be free. Those that didn't follow Jesus remained in bondage.

Just because John or Luke says that some beleived does not mean they are true believers as that depends on the context. For example, Luke says that Simon Magnus "believed" but the context goes on to demonstrate he simply made a profession of faith and was not truly born again as Peter by the Spirit reveals his true inward unregnerate state:

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Furthermore, he asked the apostles to pray to God for him indicating he had no personal relationship with God or indwelling Spirit that would lead him to pray "abba Father."

I understand your argument but it is not confirmed by the precise grammar of the text as the pronouns would argue against that interpretation. You may be right but you may be wrong.

 

[RAdam]

Just because John or Luke says that some beleived does not mean they are true believers as that depends on the context. For example, Luke says that Simon Magnus "believed" but the context goes on to demonstrate he simply made a profession of faith and was not truly born again as Peter by the Spirit reveals his true inward unregnerate state:

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Furthermore, he asked the apostles to pray to God for him indicating he had no personal relationship with God or indwelling Spirit that would lead him to pray "abba Father."

I understand your argument but it is not confirmed by the precise grammar of the text as the pronouns would argue against that interpretation. You may be right but you may be wrong.

You've never had anyone ask you to pray for them? That's a pretty ridiculous claim that someone who would ask someone to pray for them is an unregenerate.

When the bible speaks of a believer, I see no indication it doesn't mean what it says. What is a believer? One who believes. It's pretty obvious. The bible never speaks of true and false believers, only believers. Any other category is man-made. The bible also says that one who believes is born again, is a regenerate person. When you find a believer, you've found someone who is born again.

Again, they had already begun in His word, for He tells them to continue in it. They were believers that He talked to in verses 31 and 32.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You've never had anyone ask you to pray for them? That's a pretty ridiculous claim that someone who would ask someone to pray for them is an unregenerate.

When the bible speaks of a believer, I see no indication it doesn't mean what it says. What is a believer? One who believes. It's pretty obvious. The bible never speaks of true and false believers, only believers. Any other category is man-made. The bible also says that one who believes is born again, is a regenerate person. When you find a believer, you've found someone who is born again.

Again, they had already begun in His word, for He tells them to continue in it. They were believers that He talked to in verses 31 and 32.

I did not make this assessment on that characteristic alone. Note the other underlined portions. Taken together it is clear he is a false professor. He is still in "the bond of inquity" and he was directly told that he has "no part" in this matter and he will "perish."

 

[RAdam]

And those things do not prove he was an unregenerate person.

Again, how do you decide who is and who is not a "true" believer?

 

[Dr. Walter]

And those things do not prove he was an unregenerate person.

Again, how do you decide who is and who is not a "true" believer?

No true believer is in "the bond of inquity"! No true believer will "perish" along with their money! No true beleiver is in "the gall of bitterness." No true believer when counseled to repent will ask someone else to do the praying for them.

You find me anywhere such language is used of true believers?

 

[RAdam]

What is a false believer?

You keep speaking of true believers, so I want to know what a false believer is.

 

[RAdam]

Also, what is the bond of iniquity? The gall of bitterness?

If your position is the perishing under consideration is eternal, such as Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 1:18, then apparently his money was going to hell with him.

Also, concerning the part and lot, Jesus said that those that didn't wash feet had no part with Him. Is this meaning that those that don't take part in feet washing are lost and hellbound?

 

[steaver]

John the Baptist wasn't born of God? Are you serious? So God had an unregenerate man begin preaching the gospel, baptize people, testify of the Christ, see the Spirit descend on Jesus in the form of a dove, be filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb, leap for joy at the salutation of Mary who was pregnant with Jesus, etc?

You need to understand the difference between the Holy Spirit "with you" and the Holy Spirit "in you". John was filled with the Holy Spirit's working power, but the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration had not yet come before Jesus Christ was glorified.

No one became "born again" until after Jesus Christ was glorified.

Jhn 14:17[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is clear as a bell. The "living water" (Spirit) that causes "regeneration" was "not yet given". Those who believed "should receive" but not yet, it was "not yet given".

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peter had faith, Peter believed, but Peter was not yet converted (born again) because the Spirit was "not yet given".

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

If the disciples had already had the Holy Ghost prior to Jesus' glorification they would have no need to receive it again.

This is a common mistake made by many Christians. God said that He was going to do a "new thing". What is that "new thing"? If "born-again" has been going on since the beginning of man then what is this "new thing" God annouced He was going to do?

 

[steaver]

Now, departing from the faith is not denying Jesus is Lord. Departing from the faith is leaving the truth of the gospel for fables.

This makes no sense. The truth of the gospel is "Jesus is Lord".

Concerning John 8, Jesus is speaking to a mixed multitude. At one point some believe in Him and He tells them to continue in His word. I know that because the bible there specifically tells me He spoke those words to the beleivers. At this point the unbelievers in the crowd take offense at the idea that they are not free. Jesus goes on to tell them that they are not children of Abraham or God, but rather Satan.

.

John 8 is really pretty clear. Jesus is addressing those who believed on Him. It is evident that many people will say that they believe on Jesus but when questioned with God's word it is manifested that many really do not believe as they say they do.

IF they continue in His word THEN they are His disciples indeed.

We do have to understand and make the distinction between pre-glorification belief and post glorification belief. After Christ was glorified the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit (born again) was implemented. So when we read the scripture accounts of what happened pre-cross we can then understand because regeneration was not part of the equasion yet.

 

[steaver]

What is a false believer?

You keep speaking of true believers, so I want to know what a false believer is.

2Cr 11:26[In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;

Gal 2:4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

 

[RAdam]

That didn't say they were false believers, it said they were false brethren.

You really need to reconsider the notion that noone was regenerated prior to the cross. Here's one text of many that shows that it was already a current thing before the cross: Jesus, in John 3:8, said, "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." He didn't say will be, He said is. He also gets on Nicodemus for not knowing about the new birth. If it was something that wasn't yet in practice, why would He have gotten onto him like that?

 

[steaver]

That didn't say they were false believers, it said they were false brethren.

What is a false brethren?

 

[steaver]

You really need to reconsider the notion that noone was regenerated prior to the cross. Here's one text of many that shows that it was already a current thing before the cross: Jesus, in John 3:8, said, "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." He didn't say will be, He said is. He also gets on Nicodemus for not knowing about the new birth. If it was something that wasn't yet in practice, why would He have gotten onto him like that?

Because Nicodemus came to Jesus with a proud heart believing that he was above Jesus in understanding God.

Nicodemus was not a believer and Jesus had to scold him....

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?


Born Again was a "new" doctrine delivered by the Son of God to Nicodemus. Jesus put Nic in his place by using Nic's pride of being a Pharisee against him....

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Nic wasn't submitting himself to Jesus' authority but rather was contesting it.

 

[steaver]

You really need to reconsider the notion that noone was regenerated prior to the cross.

Have you considered the scriptures I gave previously concerning receiving the Living Water?

Can you explain these scriptures away from my pov?

 

[RAdam]

Surely you must recognize that there is a difference between the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the gifts of the Holy Spirit which were peculiar to the time after the ascension of Jesus into heaven.

 

[RAdam]

Because Nicodemus came to Jesus with a proud heart believing that he was above Jesus in understanding God.

Nicodemus was not a believer and Jesus had to scold him....

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?


Born Again was a "new" doctrine delivered by the Son of God to Nicodemus. Jesus put Nic in his place by using Nic's pride of being a Pharisee against him....

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Nic wasn't submitting himself to Jesus' authority but rather was contesting it.

Look at what He asked Nicodemus. "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" In other words, aren't you a great teacher of the Jews? Don't you claim to have deep knowledge of spiritual things, of the scriptures? How is it then that you don't know this? Jesus was getting on Nicodemus based on his office.

 

[steaver]

Surely you must recognize that there is a difference between the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the gifts of the Holy Spirit which were peculiar to the time after the ascension of Jesus into heaven.

The scriptures I posted say nothing of spiritual gifts. We could post scriptures that speak of these gifts, but we are discussing "born again" which is expressed as "Spirit giving birth to spirit" "Receiving Living Water" "Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit" "Converted" "Regeneration" "In Christ".

Here they are again, as you can see, they are speaking about receiving the Holy Ghost, which is "born-again" and not the receiving spiritual gifts.

You need to understand the difference between the Holy Spirit "with you" and the Holy Spirit "in you". John was filled with the Holy Spirit's working power, but the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration had not yet come before Jesus Christ was glorified.

No one became "born again" until after Jesus Christ was glorified.

Jhn 14:17[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is clear as a bell. The "living water" (Spirit) that causes "regeneration" was "not yet given". Those who believed "should receive" but not yet, it was "not yet given".

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peter had faith, Peter believed, but Peter was not yet converted (born again) because the Spirit was "not yet given".

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

If the disciples had already had the Holy Ghost prior to Jesus' glorification they would have no need to receive it again.

Can you show me why these scriptures do not support my pov?

 

[steaver]

Look at what He asked Nicodemus. "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" In other words, aren't you a great teacher of the Jews? Don't you claim to have deep knowledge of spiritual things, of the scriptures? How is it then that you don't know this? Jesus was getting on Nicodemus based on his office.

That is what I said in other words. Jesus showed Nicodemus that he was not all he thought he was. The Pharisees believed that they had the knowledge of God and Jesus showed Nic that he didn't have all the knowledge he thought he had, particularly that of "born-again".

Because Nicodemus came to Jesus with a proud heart believing that he was above Jesus in understanding God.

Nicodemus was not a believer and Jesus had to scold him....

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?


Born Again was a "new" doctrine delivered by the Son of God to Nicodemus. Jesus put Nic in his place by using Nic's pride of being a Pharisee against him....

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Nic wasn't submitting himself to Jesus' authority but rather was contesting it.

 

[RAdam]

Well, conversion and regeneration aren't the same thing. One is a one time instantaneous event, the other is a process.

Peter was converted in one sense. He believes Jesus was the Christ. He, however, needed to be converted in another sense. That sense is from the fickle state he was in. He denied Jesus to sake his own skin. Later on we see him converted from this state because he is willing to suffer and die if needs be for the cause of Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The scriptures I posted say nothing of spiritual gifts. We could post scriptures that speak of these gifts, but we are discussing "born again" which is expressed as "Spirit giving birth to spirit" "Receiving Living Water" "Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit" "Converted" "Regeneration" "In Christ".

Here they are again, as you can see, they are speaking about receiving the Holy Ghost, which is "born-again" and not the receiving spiritual gifts.



Can you show me why these scriptures do not support my pov?

The new birth was a common Old Testament pre-Pentecost experience that was repeatedly referred to as circumcision of the heart.

Many of the scriptures you are quoting refer to the baptism in the Spirit rather than regeneration. I believe the baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with the individual believer per se. It too, is an Old Testament phenomena that occurred ONCE in relationship to the building of God's house. It was the expression of divine accreditation and taking up residence in a newly built "house fo God." It has to do with the institutional house of God - the church as a coporate institutional body.

The promise of the Spirit includes the baptism of the new house of God in the Spirit but it includes much more. It includes salvation application to the "world" or gentiles. It includes empowerment of the Apostolic office to confirm by supernatural signs and wonders the Word of God finished under their personal supervision (Isa. 8:16-20; Jn. 14-16).

Some of the scriptures refer to the empowerment of the Spirit to take the gospel witness to all the world.