Some shall depart from the faith.

[steaver]

Well, conversion and regeneration aren't the same thing. One is a one time instantaneous event, the other is a process.

Peter was converted in one sense. He believes Jesus was the Christ. He, however, needed to be converted in another sense. That sense is from the fickle state he was in. He denied Jesus to sake his own skin. Later on we see him converted from this state because he is willing to suffer and die if needs be for the cause of Christ.

Poor try at exegesis. Where are the scriptures that support your pov on conversion?

Why don't we follow the scriptures and see how they present "conversion"?

Psa 51:13[Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Mat 13:15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 18:3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 4:12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jhn 12:40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Act 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 28:27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It is obvious that "conversion" is "regeneration" according to scripture.

Your analysis is not based on scripture evidence.

 

[steaver]

The new birth was a common Old Testament pre-Pentecost experience that was repeatedly referred to as circumcision of the heart.

Need to see you link "born-again" with the OT circumcision of the heart using scripture.

Many of the scriptures you are quoting refer to the baptism in the Spirit rather than regeneration.

Many? I gave four passages.

Here they are again....

Jhn 14:17[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is clear as a bell. The "living water" (Spirit) that causes "regeneration" was "not yet given". Those who believed "should receive" but not yet, it was "not yet given".

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peter had faith, Peter believed, but Peter was not yet converted (born again) because the Spirit was "not yet given".

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Explain to me how the receiving of "Living Water" is not the receiving of "regeneration".

 

[Dr. Walter]

Mat 13:15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
.

Compare Deuterononmy 29:4 with Matthe 13:15

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Notice that in both texts the Lord begins with the heart:

"For this peoples heart is waxed gross....."

"not given you an heart....."

Then both text follows the characteristics of the heart either one has or does not have:

"an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear..."

"and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears,..."

Conversion is a heart problem. Deuteronomy 29:4 demands that before a person can hear with their ears, see with their eyes or understand, God must first give them a new heart - that is the act of regeneration and conversion is the consequence.

There is no such thing as a unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever. Regeneration is completed in conversion to the gospel as it is the word of truth that is used to quicken the sinner by God (James 1:18; I Pet. 2:22-25). Gospel conversion is a completed action with regeneration. However, conversion from revealed sin, as the Holy Spirit progressively reveals our sin to us is a on going progressive action called sanctification.

 

[steaver]

Compare Deuterononmy 29:4 with Matthe 13:15

Deut 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Notice that in both texts the Lord begins with the heart:

"For this peoples heart is waxed gross....."

"not given you an heart....."

Then both text follows the characteristics of the heart either one has or does not have:

"an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear..."

"and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears,..."

Conversion is a heart problem. Deuteronomy 29:4 demands that before a person can hear with their ears, see with their eyes or understand, God must first give them a new heart - that is the act of regeneration and conversion is the consequence.

There is no such thing as a unregenerated believer or a regenerated unbeliever. Regeneration is completed in conversion to the gospel as it is the word of truth that is used to quicken the sinner by God (James 1:18; I Pet. 2:22-25). Gospel conversion is a completed action with regeneration. However, conversion from revealed sin, as the Holy Spirit progressively reveals our sin to us is a on going progressive action called sanctification.

There is no such thing as a unregenerated believer....

"......the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."

Either there were NO believers in Israel as they wondered in the desert or as the scripture states, God had NOT YET given the believers a NEW heart.

 

[RAdam]

Poor try at exegesis. Where are the scriptures that support your pov on conversion?

Why don't we follow the scriptures and see how they present "conversion"?

Psa 51:13[Then] will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Mat 13:15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 18:3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 4:12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jhn 12:40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Act 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 28:27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It is obvious that "conversion" is "regeneration" according to scripture.

Your analysis is not based on scripture evidence.

I'll never understand why people try to place Psalm 51 on unregenerate people. Psalm 51 is about a born again child of God being convicted of his sin and asking God for forgiveness, after which he says he will teach others not to trangress. It has absolutely nothing to do with unregenerate people being born again.

Matthew 13 is not talking about regeneration, it is talking about being converted to the truth. God blinded many of the Jews lest they should be converted, which is clear from the passage that it has to do with understanding what Jesus preached.

 

[steaver]

I'll never understand why people try to place Psalm 51 on unregenerate people. Psalm 51 is about a born again child of God being convicted of his sin and asking God for forgiveness, after which he says he will teach others not to trangress. It has absolutely nothing to do with unregenerate people being born again.

Matthew 13 is not talking about regeneration, it is talking about being converted to the truth. God blinded many of the Jews lest they should be converted, which is clear from the passage that it has to do with understanding what Jesus preached.

Brother, if you don't understand from the scripture I posted that conversion is getting saved (born-again) then there is nothing else I or scripture can say to convince you.

 

[RAdam]

Brother, if you don't understand from the scripture I posted that conversion is getting saved (born-again) then there is nothing else I or scripture can say to convince you.

You didn't show from scripture that conversion is being born again. Now, you reference a time that Jesus told Peter he would be converted at a later time. You state that this means regeneration, the new birth, meaning Peter wasn't then born again. Well let's look at scripture. Jesus said in John 5:24 that he that believeth on Him hath everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. In other words, one who believes has been born again. Well, we find out where Peter confesses in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus then states that flesh and blood didn't reveal this to Peter, but the Father in heaven. Peter is a believer, so according to scripture he must have been in a born again condition. So Peter was already born again when Jesus told him he would be converted. Obviously conversion and regeneration must not be the same thing.

I would like you to actually address your mishandling of Psalm 51.

 

[steaver]

You didn't show from scripture that conversion is being born again. .

Here it is again....

[ Psalm 51 removed]

Mat 13:15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 18:3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 4:12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

Luk 22:32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jhn 12:40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Act 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 28:27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It is obvious that "conversion" is "regeneration" according to scripture.

Your analysis is not based on scripture evidence.

Well let's look at scripture. Jesus said in John 5:24 that he that believeth on Him hath everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. In other words, one who believes has been born again.

The New Covenant is being anounced in the gospels. We MUST let scripture interpret scripture. John said,

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Your "in other words" interpretation contradicts scripture. How could John say it any clearer for you to believe it?

John opens his gospel with an anouncement...

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"New Covenant". Those who receive Jesus Christ will be born of God. Nicodemus, a Pharisee even, had no idea what this new doctrine was. Jesus Christ came to teach born-again and gave us a clear word on what this was and when this would take place....

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This would take place AFTER His glorification as He showed when He came unto His disciples....

Jhn 20:22And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Well, we find out where Peter confesses in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus then states that flesh and blood didn't reveal this to Peter, but the Father in heaven.

And??

Praise God! The Father revealed truth to Peter.

The Father also revealed truth to these but they rejected it....

2Th 2:10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Peter is a believer, so according to scripture he must have been in a born again condition.

Not according to scripture. I have posted clear scriptures on this subject but you insist on ignoring them.

I would like you to actually address your mishandling of Psalm 51.

You are correct. Psalm 51 is not about being born-again for this had not yet been implemented until Jesus Christ was glorified post cross. It is about converting the lost to following God. Keeping in context of Psalm 51 this is not the same converting as defined in the NT.

I have no problem admitting my errors. Truth is the only thing that matters to me and if I reference any scriptures that I am shown to have misinterpreted then I am thankful to those who point this out. Thank you! I will not use Psalm 51 again for my teaching born of God.

As far as the other scriptures I have referenced, no one has been able to show they mean anything other than what I have applied them to. Actually, I don't see how anyone can, they are to direct to the point. BUt I am all ears.

 

[RAdam]

If regeneration wasn't in effect until after the cross, then how can you post scriptures that record what Jesus said about a then present condition of the Jews not being converted as proof that conversion equals regeneration? If regeneration wasn't then occuring, how could Jesus have been talking about that?

 

[steaver]

If regeneration wasn't in effect until after the cross, then how can you post scriptures that record what Jesus said about a then present condition of the Jews not being converted as proof that conversion equals regeneration? If regeneration wasn't then occuring, how could Jesus have been talking about that?

As you pointed out and I conceded conversion does not always mean regeneration. However, as spoken of in the NT it includes the rebirth post-cross glorification.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello brother Steaver,

Hope all is well with you, and yours...I have been busy on another forum, and have been remiss in keeping in touch.

A few comments, if I may, on Psalm 51.

You are correct. Psalm 51 is not about being born-again for this had not yet been implemented until Jesus Christ was glorified post cross. It is about converting the lost to following God. Keeping in context of Psalm 51 this is not the same converting as defined in the NT.

I have no problem admitting my errors. Truth is the only thing that matters to me and if I reference any scriptures that I am shown to have misinterpreted then I am thankful to those who point this out. Thank you! I will not use Psalm 51 again for my teaching born of God.

As far as the other scriptures I have referenced, no one has been able to show they mean anything other than what I have applied them to. Actually, I don't see how anyone can, they are to direct to the point. BUt I am all ears.

Well, not all ears...I can easily detect a heart for God in there.

Though the new birth is, I believe, directly related to the New Covenant, and is promised to those who believe, we can see the new birth in Psalm 51.

It is the Old Covenant correlation to the work of God in the lives of the faithful.

Consider:

Psalm 51

1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Forgiveness of sin. According to God's mercy.



2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

Cleansing of sin, as we see in Hebrews only the sacrifice of Christ is able to cleanse the conscience and take away sin.


3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.



4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.


Acknowledgement of sin, and of God's holiness.


5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Acknowledgement of man's condition.


6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

God's desire that we know the truth, which, I believe, has always been accomplished by the Holy Spirit giving that truth to man.


7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Again, cleansing. And a standing of righteousness before God.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

Acknowledgement of the just judgement of God.


9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

God will not remember, nor hold to our account, our sin, in the eternal sense.


10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Here we see a plea for the very thing that God promises in the New Covenant. See Ezekial 36.


11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Whereas the Holy Spirit would depart from some (King Saul and Samson, for example), I think David's fear was unfounded: we are told that the Spirit of God came upon him (at his annointing) from that day forward...and never told that He left him.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

This is the reason for Daviv's plea...he had fell into sin, and I believe that the Holy Spirit troubled him for it, even as He does today in the lives of born again believers.


13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Leading the lost to Christ.

Another indication of one who is moved by the Spirit of God.


Just a few thoughts, brother, hope you don't mind.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello RAdam,

You didn't show from scripture that conversion is being born again. Now, you reference a time that Jesus told Peter he would be converted at a later time. You state that this means regeneration, the new birth, meaning Peter wasn't then born again. Well let's look at scripture. Jesus said in John 5:24 that he that believeth on Him hath everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. In other words, one who believes has been born again. Well, we find out where Peter confesses in Matthew 16 that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus then states that flesh and blood didn't reveal this to Peter, but the Father in heaven. Peter is a believer, so according to scripture he must have been in a born again condition. So Peter was already born again when Jesus told him he would be converted. Obviously conversion and regeneration must not be the same thing.

I would like you to actually address your mishandling of Psalm 51.

Do you see a difference between salvation under the Old Covenant and the New?

Meaning, though there were those who were declared just before the Cross, they were not born again.

They had many of the blessings associated with salvation, yet, one thing they lacked...the means for true and complete remission of sins, which would come from the death of Christ in their (our) stead.

Though they were declared just (see Hebrews 11), they were still guilty of their sin.

They were "saved" on credit, so to speak, but until their penalty had been paid, they were still awaiting their Savior, who would take away their sin.

Not until the New Covenant wa brought into existence did man become born again, at least, that is how I see it.

I would be glad to see scriptural references for this, if you would provide them.

Again, I see a picture and model of the new birth in Psalm 51, but just as in Ezekial 36, and Jeremiah 31, the New Covenant was a future event.

God bless.

 

[RAdam]

Jesus said, in John 3:8 (probably 3 full years before His death): "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." He didn't say will be, He said is. It was a current event even though Jesus had yet to die on Calvary. The new birth is something that has been going on since man fell.

How were men saved before Calvary? Well, by Jesus Christ. How about after? Same way, by the Jesus Christ. What is the difference then? It is a difference in method? No. Men were quickened by the Spirit and saved by the blood of Christ. The difference then is in administration. Before the death of Christ, men didn't understand a great deal of it. Christ was hidden in the OT times, hidden in types and shadows and these types of things. But then, Christ came and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. The difference was administration. Now, we are under the administration of the gospel, which is a great light shining straight to Calvary and bringing much needed knowledge of the finished work of Christ to His people.

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus said, in John 3:8 (probably 3 full years before His death): "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." He didn't say will be, He said is. It was a current event even though Jesus had yet to die on Calvary. The new birth is something that has been going on since man fell.

How were men saved before Calvary? Well, by Jesus Christ. How about after? Same way, by the Jesus Christ. What is the difference then? It is a difference in method? No. Men were quickened by the Spirit and saved by the blood of Christ. The difference then is in administration. Before the death of Christ, men didn't understand a great deal of it. Christ was hidden in the OT times, hidden in types and shadows and these types of things. But then, Christ came and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. The difference was administration. Now, we are under the administration of the gospel, which is a great light shining straight to Calvary and bringing much needed knowledge of the finished work of Christ to His people.

While I agree that the Holy Spirit did in fact work in the lives of men, we are also told in Hebrews that the saints of old were not made complete.

This completion was brought about by the sacrifice of Christ and with that the eternal indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The saints of Hebrews 11 were justified, but not complete, because as of yet, their sin had not been paid for.

God bless.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Jesus said in John 10, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." Earlier, He said that the sheep hear the shepherds voice and will not follow another.

With that in mind, those that depart from the faith in Paul's epistle to Timothy, cannot be saved. They are hearing another voice... giving heed to seducing spirits.

If they were of Christ, they no doubt would have continued with Christ, but they went out that it might be known they were not all of Christ.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Steadfast Fred,

Jesus said in John 10, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me." Earlier, He said that the sheep hear the shepherds voice and will not follow another.

With that in mind, those that depart from the faith in Paul's epistle to Timothy, cannot be saved. They are hearing another voice... giving heed to seducing spirits.

If they were of Christ, they no doubt would have continued with Christ, but they went out that it might be known they were not all of Christ.

While this is true, we cannot forget that Christ spoke of "what would happen."


John 10:11-17 (King James Version)

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.


This I believe to be in reference to His death and the creation of the Church.

While He says He is the Shepherd of Israel, I think we can see that there is a dividing line before the Cross, and after.

And a promise of the New Covenant was that God would put His Spirit in man, and cause them to walk in His stautes, which I personally believe is the only way men have ever been able to obey God in truth.

I can see no scriptural basis for a departing of the Spirit of God in the New Testament, as we see in the Old.

But rather, that He is the earnest of our inheritance, which is heavenly, rather than the inheritance of Israel (national), which is earthly.

God bless.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Do you see a difference between salvation under the Old Covenant and the New?

Meaning, though there were those who were declared just before the Cross, they were not born again.

They had many of the blessings associated with salvation, yet, one thing they lacked...the means for true and complete remission of sins, which would come from the death of Christ in their (our) stead.

Though they were declared just (see Hebrews 11), they were still guilty of their sin.

They were "saved" on credit, so to speak, but until their penalty had been paid, they were still awaiting their Savior, who would take away their sin.

Not until the New Covenant wa brought into existence did man become born again, at least, that is how I see it.

I would be glad to see scriptural references for this, if you would provide them.

Again, I see a picture and model of the new birth in Psalm 51, but just as in Ezekial 36, and Jeremiah 31, the New Covenant was a future event.

God bless.

My friend you are sorely mistaken when you deny that total depraved sinners in the Old Testament became "saints" (Heb. 11) apart from regeneration. They are no different in regard to the human nature than you and I.

I don't think you understand what is inclusive in regeneration or you would not make such a statement. Read Ephesians 4:18 to see what is involved in being lost, separated from the life of God. That characterized condition must be reversed before any human being will believe, love or serve God. The reversal of that condition described in Ephesians 4:18 is regeneration.

Old Testament saints were circumcised in the heart = regeneration.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Only Two possible options for all mankind

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:7 is not restricted to fallen mankind after Pentecost but is the characterization from man since the fall of Adam.

Romans 8:8-9 provides only two options for all mankind since Adam. They are either "in the flesh" and therefore cannot "please God" or they are "in the spirit" - THERE IS NO THIRD OPTION.

Romans 8:9 If "ANY MAN" not merely men since Pentecost, but "ANY MAN" are not "in the Spirit" which is equal to having the spirit "DWELL IN YOU" than that man is "NONE OF HIS" people but are those described in Romans 8:7. There are no third options and there has NEVER BEEN any third option and there NEVER will be any third option.

All men in all ages are either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" and "in the Spirit" is equal to having the Spirit "dwell in you."

 

[Darrell C]

My friend you are sorely mistaken when you deny that total depraved sinners in the Old Testament became "saints" (Heb. 11) apart from regeneration. They are no different in regard to the human nature than you and I.

I don't think you understand what is inclusive in regeneration or you would not make such a statement. Read Ephesians 4:18 to see what is involved in being lost, separated from the life of God. That characterized condition must be reversed before any human being will believe, love or serve God. The reversal of that condition described in Ephesians 4:18 is regeneration.

Old Testament saints were circumcised in the heart = regeneration.

That I may be sorely mistaken is a given...

As far as Ephesians 4:18, how do you see that depraved men were born again according to this scripture?

Concerning this statement,

That characterized condition must be reversed before any human being will believe, love or serve God

Perhaps you feel Cornelius was regenerated.

The reversal of that condition described in Ephesians 4:18 is regeneration.

Ephesians 4:18 (King James Version)

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

How do you see a reversal in man's fallen condition in this verse?

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:7 is not restricted to fallen mankind after Pentecost but is the characterization from man since the fall of Adam.

Romans 8:8-9 provides only two options for all mankind since Adam. They are either "in the flesh" and therefore cannot "please God" or they are "in the spirit" - THERE IS NO THIRD OPTION.

Romans 8:9 If "ANY MAN" not merely men since Pentecost, but "ANY MAN" are not "in the Spirit" which is equal to having the spirit "DWELL IN YOU" than that man is "NONE OF HIS" people but are those described in Romans 8:7. There are no third options and there has NEVER BEEN any third option and there NEVER will be any third option.

All men in all ages are either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" and "in the Spirit" is equal to having the Spirit "dwell in you."

Please explain how, if there are two conditions (which I do affirm...lost or saved), the indwelling of the Spirit of God in the Old Testament equals the new birth (which, I see as a new creation of the believer).

Certainly the Spirit of God worked in the lives of men, but, if King Saul was born again, why then did the Spirit of God depart from him.

If he was truly born again, and a new creation, then, we must allow that the salvation found in Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not "forever."

And this, I do not believe.

All men in all ages are either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" and "in the Spirit" is equal to having the Spirit "dwell in you."

Again, I would suggest that Cornelius was not born again, for God sent him to Peter for this very purpose.

I see a difference in the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the pre-Cross eras as opposed to the post Pentecost age.

So, while there are two peoples in the world, both before the cross and after, I also see two "saints" as well.

Those who were justified before the Cross, and those who were justified after the Cross...who received the Holy Spirit and were born again.

I am willing to receive correction, and know that some hold to the position of saints being born again before the Cross.

I would just like to see the scriptural evidence for that position.

The disciples, including Judas, enjoyed the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and were sent out to minister.

But where were they when the Lord was on the Cross?

They are said to be clean through the word spoken to them, but I see no evidence of their being reborn.

Why would Jesus not allow them the new birth, if He gave this to others?

Anyway, like I said, I am willing to receive correction, so, show me your position.

God bless.

 

[RAdam]

You don't think Cornelius was born again? Really? Well let me ask you one question: how was it that he feared God? Paul said in Romans 3, speaking of the natural of man, "there is no fear of God before their eyes." Here's a man that fears God, he gives much alms to the people, he prays to God consistently, etc. You think he is an unregenerate man? You really don't understand the depravity of man and the depth of change that regeneration brings upon a person.

Here's another thing: the angel sent to Cornelius said that his prayers and alms had come up before God for a memorial. My question is, a memorial of what? A memorial is intended to bring to mind a certain event. What is Cornelius' alms and prayers bringing to mind to God? According to you, the answer is nothing. Nothing has happened to this guy yet. The only logical answer is that his alms and prayers are a memorial of God changing his heart in regeneration.

Finally, Peter, upon entering the place where the gentiles were gathered to hear him preach and upon hearing the story of Cornelius, he states, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every natin he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." How could Peter make that statement before he had ever preached to them? They might have rejected, and according to you none of them were regenerate. The only way he could make that statement is if he understood that God had been there before him and changed the hearts of Cornelius and the other gentiles gathered there. In short, there is proof that God has people among the gentiles as well as the jew, and this is seen by Peter before he had ever preached a single bit of the gospel to them.