Some shall depart from the faith.

[Darrell C]

You don't think Cornelius was born again? Really? Well let me ask you one question: how was it that he feared God? Paul said in Romans 3, speaking of the natural of man, "there is no fear of God before their eyes." Here's a man that fears God, he gives much alms to the people, he prays to God consistently, etc. You think he is an unregenerate man? You really don't understand the depravity of man and the depth of change that regeneration brings upon a person.

No, I don't think Cornelius was saved.

As I said before, I do believe the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of men before the Cross, but, I do not believe that men were born again before the Cross.

The sending of the Holy Spirit marks a clear line in history, and in the salvation of men.

Cornelius, I would presume, was a believer long before the Angel directs him to Peter, and lets look at that:

Acts 10

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


This takes place after Peter preaches the word.

Now hear Peter's words in defense of "going in unto Gentiles:"


Acts 11

11And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

13And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


How then do you say he (Cornelius) was born again?

When until this time, he had not the Spirit of God?

Here's another thing: the angel sent to Cornelius said that his prayers and alms had come up before God for a memorial. My question is, a memorial of what? A memorial is intended to bring to mind a certain event. What is Cornelius' alms and prayers bringing to mind to God? According to you, the answer is nothing. Nothing has happened to this guy yet. The only logical answer is that his alms and prayers are a memorial of God changing his heart in regeneration.

A memorial of his prayers and alms.

God had changed his heart, as He did for any who were in relationship with Him.

But I see a distinct difference between the Spirit of God coming upon the believers before the Cross, and believers receiving the permanent indwelling whereby we are sealed.

Finally, Peter, upon entering the place where the gentiles were gathered to hear him preach and upon hearing the story of Cornelius, he states, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every natin he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." How could Peter make that statement before he had ever preached to them? They might have rejected, and according to you none of them were regenerate. The only way he could make that statement is if he understood that God had been there before him and changed the hearts of Cornelius and the other gentiles gathered there. In short, there is proof that God has people among the gentiles as well as the jew, and this is seen by Peter before he had ever preached a single bit of the gospel to them.

That God had included Gentiles (and Samaritans) in salvation under the New Covenant was verified in the public display of the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

It would take just such examples to convince the Jews that God was no respecter of persons, and that He had granted repentance to the Gentiles.

God bless.

 

[RAdam]

The bible gives no such proof that there is any difference in how the Spirit acts towards man concerning regeneration and indwelling before and after Calvary. In fact, the bible suggests that the only difference is administration, not method. In other words, before Calvary the gentiles were in spiritual darkness and the Jews were held under a system of types and shadows. After Calvary, light is given in the from of the gospel of Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The bible gives no such proof that there is any difference in how the Spirit acts towards man concerning regeneration and indwelling before and after Calvary. In fact, the bible suggests that the only difference is administration, not method. In other words, before Calvary the gentiles were in spiritual darkness and the Jews were held under a system of types and shadows. After Calvary, light is given in the from of the gospel of Christ.

I think this is a good point.

 

[Darrell C]

The bible gives no such proof that there is any difference in how the Spirit acts towards man concerning regeneration and indwelling before and after Calvary. In fact, the bible suggests that the only difference is administration, not method. In other words, before Calvary the gentiles were in spiritual darkness and the Jews were held under a system of types and shadows. After Calvary, light is given in the from of the gospel of Christ.

Concerning His administration, I have said on a couple of occasions that I believe the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of men, and by this work of the Holy Spirit were men made able to walk with God.

However, your assertion that men were born again before the Cross, I do not see.

Like I said, I am willing to receive correction, and do not hold myself to be flawless in doctrine, but a layman only.

You will, however, need to show scriptural support of this doctrine of men born again before the Cross.

Lets look at the temple of the Old Covenant, and the temple of the New Covenant...both, I believe, are literal.

Just as there was a building that Jews could look at, and attend, so is the New Temple, which is the body of Christ.

The assertion of one here that the New Covenant is not for the believer today goes against the very heart of the gospel, in my opinion.

It removes the born again believer from the Church, and place him back under the Old.

2 Corinthians 6:16 (King James Version)

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I think you would agree that the earthly temple was done away with, and, for now, is obsolete. I believe there will be a physical temple in the millennial kingdom, but we are the temple of God.

So what is different?

The indwelling of God in His people.

Those under the Old were not bereft of the presence of God, but the new birth must be different from His work in the O.T. saints.

Were the disciples born again? They walked with Jesus.

Yet He said I will send the Comforter.

Was the Spirit of God not present before this?

Of course He was.

Consider:

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Have to get going, but would like to discuss this.

God bless.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Ephesians 4:18 simply characterizes the condition of the lost man regardless when this man exists. Note that this is a condition that is alienated or separated from the life of God. That is the state of a lost person - they are separated or alienated from the life of God. Regeneration in part, is the reversal of being alienated from the life of God or being quickened.

I agree with RAdam that the difference before and after the cross is administration. I also think that there is much confusion over individual indwelling and institutional indwelling. The old Testament public institution "the house of God" had that designation because God indwelt it. The New Testament "house of God" (I Tim. 3:15) is the public institution as a localized body or congregation that is indwelt corporately by the Spirit of God (I Cor. 3:16).

In the Old Testament, the Spirit coming upon a person and leaving them had nothing to do with salvation as even lost persons had this experience. This had to do with empowerment not regeneration.

Yes, Corneilus was a regenerated man prior to Peter coming to his house. The term "salvation" is a broad term that does not always speak to initial regeneration/conversion but also is inclusive of election, progressive sanctification and ultimate glorification. Corneilus was a believer in the Old Testament gospel (Acts 10:43) of a coming Messiah. What Peter revealed to Corneilus was that this coming Messiah was Jesus and that he had established a new house of God "the church" with its ordinances. Peter explains what happened in the house of Corneilus was not regeneration by the Spirit but the baptism in the Spirit as it occurred on the day of Pentecost (Acts 11:15-16). If this had been the regenerating work of the Spirit Peter would not have had to resort all the way back to Pentecost to relate to what happened in the house of Corneilius as the regenerating work of the Spirit had been constantly occuring.

That I may be sorely mistaken is a given...

As far as Ephesians 4:18, how do you see that depraved men were born again according to this scripture?

Concerning this statement,





Perhaps you feel Cornelius was regenerated.







How do you see a reversal in man's fallen condition in this verse?





Please explain how, if there are two conditions (which I do affirm...lost or saved), the indwelling of the Spirit of God in the Old Testament equals the new birth (which, I see as a new creation of the believer).

Certainly the Spirit of God worked in the lives of men, but, if King Saul was born again, why then did the Spirit of God depart from him.

If he was truly born again, and a new creation, then, we must allow that the salvation found in Christ, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not "forever."

And this, I do not believe.




Again, I would suggest that Cornelius was not born again, for God sent him to Peter for this very purpose.

I see a difference in the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the pre-Cross eras as opposed to the post Pentecost age.

So, while there are two peoples in the world, both before the cross and after, I also see two "saints" as well.

Those who were justified before the Cross, and those who were justified after the Cross...who received the Holy Spirit and were born again.

I am willing to receive correction, and know that some hold to the position of saints being born again before the Cross.

I would just like to see the scriptural evidence for that position.

The disciples, including Judas, enjoyed the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and were sent out to minister.

But where were they when the Lord was on the Cross?

They are said to be clean through the word spoken to them, but I see no evidence of their being reborn.

Why would Jesus not allow them the new birth, if He gave this to others?

Anyway, like I said, I am willing to receive correction, so, show me your position.

God bless.

 

[RAdam]

You'll notice that Peter said that God "hath begotten us again..." That means the people Peter is discussing had previously been begotten in some form, but were now begotten again. What were they begotten again to? A lively hope. Not eternal life, not spiritual life, not anything like that. They were begotten to a lively hope. How? By the work of the Spirit or the preaching of the gospel or a prayer offered up by the person or by any other means that people typically assign regeneration to? Nope. By the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

Alright, so let's look at this. Peter says some people have been begotten again unto a lively hope, and the means was the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Now, he is obviously not talking about regeneration or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as connected with regeneration. He is talking about a begetting that is subsequent to the new birth, was accomplished by the resurrection of Christ from the dead (rather than His death, which was the means of putting away sins and saving His people), and is unto a lively hope. What Peter is talking about is the effect the resurrection of our Lord has on God's born again people. Consider Peter himself. Before the resurrection of Christ, he was scared of the authorities and willing to deny Jesus to save his own skin. Later on, we see Peter preaching the gospel according to the commandment of God and against the orders of the religious rulers of the Jews, being willing to suffer and die if necessary. This is a total reversal of attitude. What brought it on? The resurrection of Christ. Now we see Peter not worried about what man will do to him because he knows Christ finished the work of redemption and rose from the death to testify of that fact, and now he has a lively hope in eternal life and that his body will be likewise raised from the dead and changed into the glorious likeness of Christ's body. In short, he has been begotten again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Consider Peter himself. Before the resurrection of Christ, he was scared of the authorities and willing to deny Jesus to save his own skin. Later on, we see Peter preaching the gospel according to the commandment of God and against the orders of the religious rulers of the Jews, being willing to suffer and die if necessary. This is a total reversal of attitude.

Ummm, did you forget that after the resurrection Peter floundered again?

 

[steaver]

Concerning His administration, I have said on a couple of occasions that I believe the Holy Spirit worked in the lives of men, and by this work of the Holy Spirit were men made able to walk with God.

However, your assertion that men were born again before the Cross, I do not see.

Like I said, I am willing to receive correction, and do not hold myself to be flawless in doctrine, but a layman only.

You will, however, need to show scriptural support of this doctrine of men born again before the Cross.


God bless.

I have asked for scripture support many times for a regeneration found in the OT. There is none. Neither is there any NT revelation that suggest the New Covenant has been in force since Adam. That simply makes no sense at all since Jeremiah gave prophecy that it was to come AFTER.

John made it perfectly clear that the Living Water/Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John records the receiving of the Living Water/Holy Spirit by the disciples AFTER Jesus returned from the Father glorified.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

If the disciples already had the Holy Spirit, are there two Holy Spirits?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is all about the ushering in of the New Covenant/Born Again.

 

[steaver]

Old Testament saints were circumcised in the heart = regeneration.

I searched for scripture that states such. I could not find any. I could be missing it, could you post it?

 

[steaver]

I have searched the scriptures looking for an example of a person said to have a circumcised heart pre glorification of Jesus Christ. I could not find one.

I did find a passage where God declared that the hearts of the Jews were uncircumcised which would harmonize with the NT revelations on rebirth....

Lev 26:41And [that] I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Moses declared that his lips were uncircumcised which to me means that he was saying that he had not the heart capable of speaking on behalf of the Lord.

Exd 6:12And Moses spake before the LORD, saying, Behold, the children of Israel have not hearkened unto me; how then shall Pharaoh hear me, who [am] of uncircumcised lips?

Jeremiah declares that the people do not have an ear for the word of the Lord because their ears are uncircumcised, which to me means that they were lacking a heart for God that can hear what God says.

Jeremiah also gives prophecy that God will take care of this problem in the future when He creates a New Covenant giving a new heart. (Jer 31)

David cries out for this new heart in Psalm 51...

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

If David already had a clean heart and a new spirit via regeneration he would not be crying out for another one. David, through the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, gave prophecy of the new birth which was to come. Those who loved God longed for it, they longed for that personal relationship that God said would come through the New Covenant. A relationship that could understand God in a deeper and meaningful way, as a Father and a child.

The OT saints had faith and loved God, but they looked forward to the day that they would be one with God through the Spirit of Christ.

That day came for them when Jesus triumped over death and led captivity captive (Eph 4), taking those OT saints from paradise to heaven and personal relationship via regeneration.

 

[Jedi Knight]

The OT saints had faith and loved God, but they looked forward to the day that they would be one with God through the Spirit of Christ.

They had the spirit of Christ in them in the OT too. Example...1 Peter 1:10-11 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ IN THEM was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi guys,

In the Old Testament, the Spirit coming upon a person and leaving them had nothing to do with salvation as even lost persons had this experience. This had to do with empowerment not regeneration.

Yes, Corneilus was a regenerated man prior to Peter coming to his house. .

I hope you understand that my intent is not to be contentious, nor to have enmity between us (and this I say to all).

But merely to discuss doctrine, which, as I have said, I am not too proud to be corrected.

While I might agree with much of what you posted, I would point out that there is a difference between the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old, as opposed to the New (Covenant).

I do not have a lot of time this morning, so, this will just be a discussion of points, rather than setting forth scriptural evidences to emphasize my belief.

That the Holy Spirit was promised, and that this was to take place after the ministry of Jesus Christ (namely, His death on the Cross and His resurrection), is plain, it seems, to me.

This statement...

In the Old Testament, the Spirit coming upon a person and leaving them had nothing to do with salvation as even lost persons had this experience

...that the Spirit of God had nothing to do with salvation is one that I have to disagree with.

That the Spirit of God worked in the lives of men is true, as He has always done this, and will always do this.

That He works in the lives of unbelievers is true, for this is the means by which men are brought to saving faith...the testimony of the Holy Spirit to the world. No man apart from the Spirit of God can be saved.

It is He who the Jews did despite unto, and rejected.

It is He, Who, if the unbeliever rejects (as did the Israelites), they will be forever lost, having rejected the only means by which God brings man to salvation.

This I see as the blaphemy of the Holy Spirit.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit that causes men to understand the word of God, that they might believe.

Judas was partaker of the Holy Spirit, being sent out to do the work of the ministry, yet he was not saved.

The disciples were partaker of the Holy Spirit, and rejoiced for their works, yet, because they "clean" only, they scattered at the time of Jesus' death.

One must be born of water (the washing of the water of the word) and...the Spirit (of God).

It was not until the Spirit was given, I believe, that men were not only partaker of the Holy Spirit, but born again...made new creations in Christ.

In this way, Christ's death, was atonement made for sin, and men could have true reconciliation with God.

We are new creations.

We partake of the blessings of the New Covenant.

I would point out that one of the blessings associated with the New Covenant is total forgiveness of sin, which the Old Covenant could not achieve.

Sorry, I am rambling now, and need to get to work.

Look forward to discussing this with you.

God bless.

You'll notice that Peter said that God "hath begotten us again..." That means the people Peter is discussing had previously been begotten in some form, but were now begotten again. What were they begotten again to? A lively hope. Not eternal life, not spiritual life, not anything like that. They were begotten to a lively hope. How? By the work of the Spirit or the preaching of the gospel or a prayer offered up by the person or by any other means that people typically assign regeneration to? Nope. By the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

.

And to this I would draw your attention.

Now, what was missing from the spiritual lives of the Old Testament saint?

While the gospel was indeed preached to them, Christ had not died for the removal of their sin.

In this way we can say they were "saved on credit," or, they looked forward to the Cross, whereas we look back at the accomplishment.

The promise of the New Covenant being given, and, that Gentiles would partake of this salvation, was a mystery, as I am sure you know.

We have been made complete by the salvation found in Christ, through His death and resurrection, whereas, the Old Testament saint had not been.

The lively hope is not a, "Gee, I hope this works out," but a surety, one sealed by the eternal indwelling of God within us, whereby our brother John can write, "These things have I written that ye may know ye have eternal life."

God bless.

I have asked for scripture support many times for a regeneration found in the OT. There is none. Neither is there any NT revelation that suggest the New Covenant has been in force since Adam. That simply makes no sense at all since Jeremiah gave prophecy that it was to come AFTER.

John made it perfectly clear that the Living Water/Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John records the receiving of the Living Water/Holy Spirit by the disciples AFTER Jesus returned from the Father glorified.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

If the disciples already had the Holy Spirit, are there two Holy Spirits?

The gospel of Jesus Christ is all about the ushering in of the New Covenant/Born Again.

Well said, brother.

God bless.

 

[RAdam]

Ummm, did you forget that after the resurrection Peter floundered again?

So Peter denied Jesus Christ after the resurrection to save his own skin? I must have missed that.

When Peter understood the full ramifications of the resurrection of Christ, he was then willing to die to serve his Lord, not worrying about what man might do to him.

 

[RAdam]

I see you basically totally ignored that passage from 1 Peter. I don't blame you, as it pretty much proves your position wrong.

 

[Dr. Walter]

That the Holy Spirit was promised, and that this was to take place after the ministry of Jesus Christ (namely, His death on the Cross and His resurrection), is plain, it seems, to me.

...that the Spirit of God had nothing to do with salvation is one that I have to disagree with.

It was not until the Spirit was given, I believe, that men were not only partaker of the Holy Spirit, but born again...made new creations in Christ.

In this way, Christ's death, was atonement made for sin, and men could have true reconciliation with God.

We are new creations.

We partake of the blessings of the New Covenant.

I would point out that one of the blessings associated with the New Covenant is total forgiveness of sin, which the Old Covenant could not achieve.

The language of the Spirit coming upon a person has nothing to do with salvation as that refers only to empowerment by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit saved people prior to Pentecost the very same way He does now. The "new" covenant is the "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) but it is "new" in the sense of administration from the ministry of Christ forward.

Consider Ephesians 1:4 and election with Roman 8:28-32. Do you think being chosen "in Christ" before the world began only had to do with Post-Pentecost saints???? Romans 8:28-32 outlines the same salvation for the "elect" (v. 32) beginning with the etern "purpose" of God in verse 28 and the repetitive "for whom....he also did" to "glorified" in verse 30.

The same is true of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where salvation has its beginning with God's election from the foundation of the world "to" salvation but it is "through the sanctification and belief of the truth" in regard to all the elect not just some.

Those chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world are chosen unto salvation in time and space through sanctification (setting apart) of the Spirit and beleif of the truth in the gospel (2 Thes. 2:13-14). They are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Eph. 2:10) which creation is regeneration (Eph. 2:1,5,8-10). Regeneration is the opposite of being "alienated from the life of God" which is true of every lost person (Eph. 4:18). Regeneration is simply reversing the "blindness" of heart, and "ignorance" within them " and removing the "darkness" of mind. It is a creative act of God that this is accomplished (2 Cor. 4:6) and that is described as being "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10).

The New covenant was applied before Pentecost just as it was afte Pentecost because there is no other way of salvation.

Romans 8:7-9 make it clear there are no third options, either a human being is "in the flesh" and lost or "in the Spirit" and saved and if you are "in the Spirit" that is defined as the Spirit dwelling in you.

Rom. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I believe you are confusing the promise of the Spirit in the sense of the baptism in the Spirit with regeneration.

The promise of the Spirit includes many things. It applies to the apostolic office and the completion of the Biblical canon (Isa. 8:16-18 with Heb. 2:3,13; Rev. 1:3; 22:18-19; 1 Pet. 3:19-21; 2 Thes. 2:15; etc.). It applies to those things that are the signs of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12; Isa. 8:18 with Heb. 2:3,13). It applies to the public accreditation of the new house of God on Pentecost by immersion in the shekinah glory as in the case of every previous house of God after it was completed by God's chosen builder (Tabernacle by Moses - Ex. 40:33-34; Temple by Solomon 2 Chron. 7:1-3 Church by Christ - Acts 2:1). It refers to Salvation going to the "world" (gentiles) - Jn. 16:8-11 with Acts 1:8; Rom. 11:11-12 and Acts 11:18 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

What we have with the first advent of Christ is the building of a new house of God - the church and transferral of the "keys of the kingdom" (Mt. 16:19; 18:17-18) from the Jews (Mt. 21:43-44) who administered the affairs of the visible kingdom of God and thus sat in "the seat of Moses" (Mt. 23:2) and claimed authority (Mt. 21:24) to administer the keys or those areas of authority in the visible administration of the things of God (key of discipline - Mt. 18:15-18; key of knowledge - Lk. 11:12; key of gospel remission; ordination of ministry, administration of ordinances, etc.) as conveyed to the church as the new "house of God" (Heb. 9:1 "also" 1 Tim. 3:1-15) in Matthew 28:18-20. Just as the Temple administered the ordinances and laws of the Old Covenant the church administers the ordinances and commands of the New Covenant within the professing people of God. However, indvidual salvation has always been the same from Genesis 3:15 through repentance and faith in the gospel accompany new birth, indwelling of the Spirit, justification and adoption (Rom. 3:24-26; 4:12; Gal. 3:2-8; Acts 4:12; 10:43; 26:22-23; Rom. 8:7-9)

 

[Jedi Knight]

I must have missed that.

When Peter understood the full ramifications of the resurrection of Christ, he was then willing to die to serve his Lord, not worrying about what man might do to him.

You did indeed missed it. Paul rebuked Peter "to his face" for cowering in front of the Jews. He wasn't always Superman after the resurrection as you contrasted.

 

[steaver]

The language of the Spirit coming upon a person has nothing to do with salvation as that refers only to empowerment by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit saved people prior to Pentecost the very same way He does now. The "new" covenant is the "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20) but it is "new" in the sense of administration from the ministry of Christ forward.

Consider Ephesians 1:4 and election with Roman 8:28-32. Do you think being chosen "in Christ" before the world began only had to do with Post-Pentecost saints???? Romans 8:28-32 outlines the same salvation for the "elect" (v. 32) beginning with the etern "purpose" of God in verse 28 and the repetitive "for whom....he also did" to "glorified" in verse 30.

The same is true of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where salvation has its beginning with God's election from the foundation of the world "to" salvation but it is "through the sanctification and belief of the truth" in regard to all the elect not just some.

Those chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world are chosen unto salvation in time and space through sanctification (setting apart) of the Spirit and beleif of the truth in the gospel (2 Thes. 2:13-14). They are "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Eph. 2:10) which creation is regeneration (Eph. 2:1,5,8-10). Regeneration is the opposite of being "alienated from the life of God" which is true of every lost person (Eph. 4:18). Regeneration is simply reversing the "blindness" of heart, and "ignorance" within them " and removing the "darkness" of mind. It is a creative act of God that this is accomplished (2 Cor. 4:6) and that is described as being "created in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10).

The New covenant was applied before Pentecost just as it was afte Pentecost because there is no other way of salvation.

Romans 8:7-9 make it clear there are no third options, either a human being is "in the flesh" and lost or "in the Spirit" and saved and if you are "in the Spirit" that is defined as the Spirit dwelling in you.

Rom. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I believe you are confusing the promise of the Spirit in the sense of the baptism in the Spirit with regeneration.

The promise of the Spirit includes many things. It applies to the apostolic office and the completion of the Biblical canon (Isa. 8:16-18 with Heb. 2:3,13; Rev. 1:3; 22:18-19; 1 Pet. 3:19-21; 2 Thes. 2:15; etc.). It applies to those things that are the signs of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12; Isa. 8:18 with Heb. 2:3,13). It applies to the public accreditation of the new house of God on Pentecost by immersion in the shekinah glory as in the case of every previous house of God after it was completed by God's chosen builder (Tabernacle by Moses - Ex. 40:33-34; Temple by Solomon 2 Chron. 7:1-3 Church by Christ - Acts 2:1). It refers to Salvation going to the "world" (gentiles) - Jn. 16:8-11 with Acts 1:8; Rom. 11:11-12 and Acts 11:18 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

What we have with the first advent of Christ is the building of a new house of God - the church and transferral of the "keys of the kingdom" (Mt. 16:19; 18:17-18) from the Jews (Mt. 21:43-44) who administered the affairs of the visible kingdom of God and thus sat in "the seat of Moses" (Mt. 23:2) and claimed authority (Mt. 21:24) to administer the keys or those areas of authority in the visible administration of the things of God (key of discipline - Mt. 18:15-18; key of knowledge - Lk. 11:12; key of gospel remission; ordination of ministry, administration of ordinances, etc.) as conveyed to the church as the new "house of God" (Heb. 9:1 "also" 1 Tim. 3:1-15) in Matthew 28:18-20. Just as the Temple administered the ordinances and laws of the Old Covenant the church administers the ordinances and commands of the New Covenant within the professing people of God. However, indvidual salvation has always been the same from Genesis 3:15 through repentance and faith in the gospel accompany new birth, indwelling of the Spirit, justification and adoption (Rom. 3:24-26; 4:12; Gal. 3:2-8; Acts 4:12; 10:43; 26:22-23; Rom. 8:7-9)

DW,

you have posted way too much here for a manageable debate. Most of it is off topic.

Can you choose just two or three passages of scripture that you feel shows regeneration before the glorification of Jesus Christ?

 

[steaver]

They had the spirit of Christ in them in the OT too. Example...1 Peter 1:10-11 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ IN THEM was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

True, and we are not suggesting that the Spirit does not enter into people and speak through them or witness things to them. Prophets are all throughout the OT. What was not yet given was the administration of regeneration. A new creation, one with Christ.

Remember, the Spirit entered into a donkey and had the donkey speak. We don't believe that the donkey had been born-again do we?

 

[Jedi Knight]

True, and we are not suggesting that the Spirit does not enter into people and speak through them or witness things to them. Prophets are all throughout the OT. What was not yet given was the administration of regeneration. A new creation, one with Christ.

Remember, the Spirit entered into a donkey and had the donkey speak. We don't believe that the donkey had been born-again do we?

I believe the OT saints were born again just like the NT believers. Jesus even said "are you a teacher of Israel and not know these things?".

 

[Darrell C]

Hi guys,

They had the spirit of Christ in them in the OT too. Example...1 Peter 1:10-11 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ IN THEM was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

I see you basically totally ignored that passage from 1 Peter. I don't blame you, as it pretty much proves your position wrong.

I guess you are referring to this passage (referred to in the above quote), and addressing it to me. If I am wrong, let me know which passage you refer to.

1 Peter 1

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


I have said that the Spirit of God worked in the lives of men, and we know that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, for He is One.

The Prophets prophesied of the grace that should come.

Grace came by Jesus Christ.


18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


While the Prophets were saved by their faith, through God's grace, they were awaiting the coming of Messiah, and the completion that would be found in Him.

Their sins were not taken away, and we know this because we are told this:

Hebrews 10

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



1 Peter 2

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


While the Prophets were the people of God, their sins had not been atoned for.

They were not made "acceptable" in completion, becuse of their sin.

They are made acceptable by Jesus Christ, Who had until the Cross, not made them complete.




Titus 3:5 (King James Version)

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


If you view this with Christ's sacrifice in mind, it seems clear that the new birth is accomplished by His sacrifice.


This is what is said about the saints of Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:39-40 (King James Version)

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


They obtained a "good report" (they were declared Just), but they were not made complete.

1 Peter 1

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Those of this age are made complete through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, by His blood, which ratified the New Covenant.

The law itself pictured this event, and when it came to pass, the law was made obsolete (meaning the Covenant of Law, or the Old Covenant...God's law will always be holy, just, good, and righteous).

Notice v. 11: the prophets testified of the glory that should follow the sufferings of Christ.

In v.10, they prophecied of the grace that would come unto us.

Jesus gave the promise of the Spirit, which, we know, if a man does not have, he does not belong to God.

We know that the new birth includes the giving of the Spirit of God, which did not take place until Pentecost.

If there is not a significant difference in the ministry of the Spirit (and I think we all agree that there is), then why did these prophets prophecy, and seek diligently, rather than declare it as present ministry?

1 Peter 1

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


God bless.