And that is the extent of your knowledge of the Scriptures on the subject, right?
This is a typical answer; a typical refutation. You can't give one.
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Some strong hard evidence for The Mark of the Beast
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
And that is the extent of your knowledge of the Scriptures on the subject, right?
This is a typical answer; a typical refutation. You can't give one.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I refer you to post #78. Until you respond to that post nothing you say merits response!:sleeping_2::sleeping_2::sleeping_2:
[FONT="]1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is called "the parousia," "a catching away."
Of this word A.T. Robertson says:
Note the Latin word "rapio" from which "rapture" comes from.
The very word "rapture" is in the verse here. "caught up"
When does this happen. It happens when Christ comes to the clouds and we shall meet him in the clouds.
His feet never touch the ground.
Now consider carefully:
[FONT="]Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.[/FONT]
--They watched him ascend up into heaven. They could see him go up slowly, or at least slow enough that they could visibly see him disappear. He disappeared into the clouds or heavens.
The angels said he will come the same way that he went. It will be gracefully, more slowly, and to the clouds. We will go to meet him in the clouds. Our departure may be more sudden. This is glorious. This is comforting.
Now contrast:
[FONT="]2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[/FONT]
Though this in a sense is a comfort to the saints, it is God's vengeance on the unbelievers and does not happen until seven years later after the Great Tribulation or at the very end of it. The two accounts cannot be reconciled. There is no rapture here, and no word to indicate a rapture.
There is a sudden coming, a coming with His mighty angels in the power and glory of God the Father (Mark 8:38), a coming in vengeance to punish those who obey not the gospel, punishing them with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power. That happens after the Tribulation when Christ comes for his elect, the Jews, and then sets up his kingdom.
There is your Scripture. There is much more, much more. But time and space do not permit right now.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:laugh::laugh:That is the standard so-called proof offered by pre-trib dispensationalist for they false doctrine and it proves nothing of the sort. The Apostle Paul is simply comforting the Thessalonians concerned about their loved ones already dead. Look at the context:
[1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
You conveniently left out verses 13 &14.:laugh::laugh: Furthermore Paul is simply saying that the deceased believers will be resurrected first. There is absolutely nothing in that Scripture to prove a pre-trib removal of the Church. You know it, I know it , and anyone who reads the passage in context knows it! The pre-trib rapture is fiction out of the mind of Darby not out of Scripture!
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I would remind you of remarks you posted on the thread "Demons" in response to my assertion that God Rules.
Your response:
Makes you look silly does't it. 1 Peter 3:22 is still correct. GOD is still Sovereign over all of creation and GOD still reigns and that includes this world!
1st Peter 3:22, Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
And you have presented nothing, absolutely nothing that proves a pre-trib removal of the Church and you never will because it does not exist in Scripture. You will have to do better than that DHK.
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I didn't post all the verses or the whole chapter if you will, to save some space. That way I could give you more of an explanation. But you ignored the explanation anyway.
I have no problem with verses 13 and 14. Do you? Why is the Scripture a laughing matter to you?
There is order in everything. Compare it to 1Cor.15. Yes, deceased in Christ will be raised first. Then immediately after that, we which are alive in Christ will be caught up (raptured). IT is the actual word used in the Latin version. That is where the word comes from: "rapio" (rapture) in Latin. Check your friendly Jerome's Latin Vulgate.
Apparently you don't know and still have Darby in the apocrypha of your Bible. You must have to be able to refer to him so much. Tell me, why do you refer to Darby instead of Scripture?
I explained to you 1Pet.3:22 and you still don't accept it. You pull the verse out of its context and try to make it mean something it doesn't. Just for you, I will post it again (the explanation).
[FONT="]1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:[/FONT]
Our example when suffering is Christ. We are to follow his example.
[FONT="]1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:[/FONT]
Christ suffered, He suffered a cruel death unlike any other. He died. But now He is risen and sits on the right hand of God.
[FONT="]1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.[/FONT]
He is gone to heaven where we will go when we die.
He is on the right hand of God, ever living to make intercession for us, for that is His present ministry until He comes and reigns as King in His Kingdom on earth.
The angels and authorities and powers are subject to him. These, presumably, are those that are in heaven.
This is simply a picture that there is reward for the Christian after they endure suffering for a season. There is an end. There is reward as Jesus was rewarded. He is our example. The letter was written to encourage suffering believers.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Face up to it DHK; there is no Scripture that shows a pre-tribulation removal of the Church. The simple truth is that the pre-trib dispensational doctrine is false and invented out of “‘whole cloth” by one John Nelson Darby.
Sadly much of the basis for this false doctrine was Darby”s view of the Church for which Jesus Christ died. Dr. Thomas Ice, an honest if deluded dispensationalist, writes regarding Darby and pre-trib dispensationalism:
Notice what Ice says above:
This is the view of many in the dispensational community.
The Church for which Jesus Christ purchased with his own blood [Acts 20:28] is a failure.
The Church of which Jesus Christ said: I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18] is a failure.
This is the reason so many "Rapture Ready" dispensationalists base their eschatology on the daily news and I simply refer you to the OP.
Therefore. GOD must “snatch” the Church out of the world. But then according to dispensationalists the Church which Jesus Christ purchased with his own blood is only a parenthesis, an intercalation in GOD’s program for Israel.
Ice writes elsewhere:
WE see in Ice's remarks above the development within pre-tribulation dispensationalism the false concept of the two peoples of GOD, a concept directly in opposition to the teaching of Scripture {Ephesians 2:11-22}. A passage you dismissed DHK as [From post#64} "It doesn't say much though".
Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Chafer writes:
Charles C. Ryrie, quoted above, is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. Ryrie writes:
I noted earlier that pre-trib dispensationalists generally *lose their cool, become incensed is perhaps more descriptive, when the Darby, Chafer, Ryrie doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is mentioned. For proof simply go to http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80260&highlight=Parenthesis+Church
Pre-trib dispensationalism is the invention of John Nelson Darby, stemming from something revealed to him in Isaiah 32, while convalescing from a riding accident. However there is no basis in Scripture for that doctrine, therefore, it must be considered a false doctrine as other such doctrines that arose during the 19th century.
Sadly much of the basis for this false doctrine was Darby”s view of the Church for which Jesus Christ died. Dr. Thomas Ice, an honest if deluded dispensationalist, writes regarding Darby and pre-trib dispensationalism:
Notice what Ice says above:
This is the view of many in the dispensational community.
The Church for which Jesus Christ purchased with his own blood [Acts 20:28] is a failure.
The Church of which Jesus Christ said: I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matthew 16:18] is a failure.
This is the reason so many "Rapture Ready" dispensationalists base their eschatology on the daily news and I simply refer you to the OP.
Therefore. GOD must “snatch” the Church out of the world. But then according to dispensationalists the Church which Jesus Christ purchased with his own blood is only a parenthesis, an intercalation in GOD’s program for Israel.
Ice writes elsewhere:
WE see in Ice's remarks above the development within pre-tribulation dispensationalism the false concept of the two peoples of GOD, a concept directly in opposition to the teaching of Scripture {Ephesians 2:11-22}. A passage you dismissed DHK as [From post#64} "It doesn't say much though".
Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Chafer writes:
Charles C. Ryrie, quoted above, is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. Ryrie writes:
I noted earlier that pre-trib dispensationalists generally *lose their cool, become incensed is perhaps more descriptive, when the Darby, Chafer, Ryrie doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church is mentioned. For proof simply go to http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80260&highlight=Parenthesis+Church
Pre-trib dispensationalism is the invention of John Nelson Darby, stemming from something revealed to him in Isaiah 32, while convalescing from a riding accident. However there is no basis in Scripture for that doctrine, therefore, it must be considered a false doctrine as other such doctrines that arose during the 19th century.
Your view sprang from origen, who brought into the church that wicked spiritualising/allorgorizing the Bible though, and it took Augustine to make sure A mil become a dominent Eschatological view, as he needed it to have the catholic church be the Kingdom of God here on earth!
No scripture; an abandonment of sola scriptura.
A misrepresentation of the truth.
A lack of knowledge of dispensationalism along with the propagation of error.
Darby did not "invent" pre-trib dispensationalism, and you have no evidence to back up that claim--none.
No scripture; an abandonment of sola scriptura.
A misrepresentation of the truth.
A lack of knowledge of the truth.
Your second hand and third hand knowledge makes you look like a parrot echoing the ramblings of the errors of others who stay away from the Scriptures and are content to demean the character of others.
And I should trust Ice, Why? You don't.
More scripture pulled out of context.
Who was Paul addressing? He had called together the Ephesian elders and he was addressing them.
What was he speaking about? As elders/pastors they were to feed the flock of God over which the Lord had made them overseers. That flock, Paul refers to as the church of God. Yes, the church of God, at Ephesus, which he died for. It is generic. He died for every local church. They are precious in his sight. God works through local churches. The following verse speaks of the same thing. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against the local church.
Paul spoke this to Peter and the Apostles. The word means assembly. Christ will build his assembly. Every assembly, by definition must be local. And as long as they stay true to the Word of God the gates of Hell shall not prevail against them.
The reason is because that is what the Scripture (which you don't believe concerning last things) says.
Watch and wait. Be ready. He comes as a thief in the night. Suddenly.
Three times in the Book of Revelation in the last chapter, written in 98 A.D. Jesus said "Behold I come quickly (suddenly). But you don't believe that; you deny it. When he does come, he will come for his own. I don't have to watch the news. I anticipate his coming at any time, just as Paul and John did.
You have never answered my question. Where have I ever said that the church is a parenthesis. Either point to the post or shut up about it.
You are one confused person.
I already told you that ekklesia means assembly, which refers to local church. It is always a local church. Even Darby knew that. Look at Darby's translation of Acts 20:28
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.
--There is no such thing as "The Church."
Believers will be raptured, not The Church. You have been consistently wrong about this all the way through. Now will you admit it?
I don't care what Ice writes. And you don't care about Scripture, apparently.
You have no idea of the teaching of Eph.2:11-22. I explained it to you once, and I simply got ridicule. Why should I explain it again? You don't want to learn. You don't care about exegesis. You just want convenient proof-texts.
Do I care? It is apparent to me that you value the writings of men more than the writings of God. Sad!
Again, the writings of men vs. the writings of God? You have made your choice clear.
Another basis accusation. Put up or shut up.
1. It is evident that you can't answer scripture, or else you would.
2. Your way of answering a post is a smear campaign as noted above.
3. Your other method includes the quotes of men instead of the quotes of God.
4. In your last quote, you have stated again something that you parrot from others but is impossible to prove. Have you interviewed every believer in history that lived before the time of Darby to see whether or not they believed in a pre-trib rapture? Of course you haven't. Thus you cannot say that Darby invented the doctrine.
Are you a qualified doctor, and were you there to examine Darby when he fell of his horse. Are you qualified enough to know that the fall and the consequent events directly led to his revelation of the pre-trib rapture? Are you absolutely sure of that? Or, is it just another smear tactic that you will be held accountable when you stand before God at the judgement seat of Christ?
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Guess that makes Paul wicked when he used allegory in Galatians. Then again, he was the chief of sinners.
Not the same thing. I would think you would know the difference.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I have promised some friends that I would quit this nonsense with DHK and just leave the Board. I believe I am correct about Darby and pre-trib dispensationalism, with their "parenthesis Church" and their two peoples of GOD, particularly in the absence of any Scriptural basis for that false doctrine. But it is a waste of time trying to convince a committed dispensationalist of that and I really don't have the time to waste. It is past time for me to live up to that promise. So thanks again!
Why do you feel the need to convince him? How does his view effect your life to the point that you insist on doing that?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
False Doctrine is False Doctrine!
Approximately half the board believes in dispensationalism. Folks like Dr. Bob believe in a pre-trib rapture. Do you really think it is wise to call it "false doctrine" when there is that possibility you may be in the wrong?
So why are you still spreading it then?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Dr. Bob is also a Calvinist. I expect about half the board are Calvinists and the other half Arminian like yourself. You have said some pretty harsh things about Calvin and Calvinism. I expect you believe Calvinism is a false doctrine. Also I have seen far worse things posted on this Board regarding both Arminianism and Calvinism than simply saying they are false doctrine.
Whether Calvinism is a false doctrine or not you won't find out from me.
I won't post it. I disagree with it. But I am not labelling those who believe in it as heretics such as you are inferring. It is wrong. You can disagree with a person in doctrine without publically calling out their doctrine as false doctrine.
Let me repeat what I said about Calvin. I said those things as an example for YOUR sake. Otherwise they would have never been posted.
Third, I am not an Arminian. You should take up a discussion like this with Skandelon. I am "non-Calvinist." I am not a Calvinist and not an Arminian. Arminians believe they can lose their salvation; I don't.
You make the illogical fallacy that all who are not Calvinists must be Arminians. That is a wrong conclusion.
I know of Muslims that use the same kind of thinking. All who are not Muslims are Christians. Thus everyone in America is a Christian. There is no difference between Catholic and Protestant in many of their minds. Some of the more educated draw the line at Protestant and Catholic and that is all they know.
Just because I am no longer Catholic doesn't make me a Protestant.
Just because I am not a Calvinist doesn't make me an Arminian. Got it?
http://www.worthynews.com/top/cnsne...-news-i-can-t-help-wonder-if-were-last-hours/
It seems like much of the evangelical world believes that we are in the last days living in great anticipation of the Coming of Christ, and of the rapture of the saints.
Satan is the great imitator. God used the line if Isaac...satan, Ismael. God performed miracles through Moses...Satan, copied using Pharaohs sorcerers. God is Trinity...satan, unholy trinity.
http://judaism.about.com/od/prayersworship/a/What-Are-Tefillin.htm
Gods law...satan mimics via the mark of Antichrist.
http://judaism.about.com/od/prayersworship/a/What-Are-Tefillin.htm
Gods law...satan mimics via the mark of Antichrist.