Something is Bothering me

[webdog]

Your definition may suit a dictionary but I'm not sure it fits Scripture. Let's assume you're correct though; are you saying that the moment a toddler voices his/her first act of defiance against his/her parents, s/he is damned unless s/he accepts the Gospel and repents?

It fits logic, the epitome of what Scripture contains.

If the toddler understands their action is against God, and not simply mom and dad the answer is yes. I have yet to come across a toddler that can understand that concept, however.

 

[webdog]

scriptures implies that we are sinners by nature of our birth. A sinner is a person who turns from God. Sin encompases a whole bunch of things of which rape is one. So, general catagory, we are all sinners. Based on this we are judged based on our position which is one of rejection of God. However, if we've never commited rape we would never be charged with rape. Now the bible says nothing about infants with regard to salvation however, its says a bit about being still sinners or inflicted with the condition of sin even before choice.

No, Scripture does not state having a sin nature equates to being a sinner...this is a common mis-perception taught in mos churches. If we are dead in Adam, the many passages stating we are dead in OUR sins is a lie.

 

[Matt Black]

It fits logic, the epitome of what Scripture contains.

If the toddler understands their action is against God, and not simply mom and dad the answer is yes. I have yet to come across a toddler that can understand that concept, however.

So disobeying your parents isn't sin?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, Scripture does not state having a sin nature equates to being a sinner...this is a common mis-perception taught in mos churches. If we are dead in Adam, the many passages stating we are dead in OUR sins is a lie.

No it doesn't mean that it just that one builds on another. Necisarily if you are a born sinner, sin follows. Simple.

 

[webdog]

So disobeying your parents isn't sin?

It's based on the condition of the heart that determines sin. If mom and dad say deny Christ, is disobeying them sin?

 

[webdog]

No it doesn't mean that it just that one builds on another. Necisarily if you are a born sinner, sin follows. Simple.

A sinner is ONE WHO SINS. One cannot be created in such a state before even committing one sin! If what you say is true, what sin has the zygote committed...being conceived?!? If he is a sinner due to Adam's sin, there can be no personal accountability as it was Adam's sin.

What do you do with passages like Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 2:5? How do you interpret those?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

A sinner is ONE WHO SINS. One cannot be created in such a state before even committing one sin! If what you say is true, what sin has the zygote committed...being conceived?!? If he is a sinner due to Adam's sin, there can be no personal accountability as it was Adam's sin.

What do you do with passages like Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 2:5? How do you interpret those?

Colossians supports what I am saying here:

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,- Or the Sin Nature which you were born into God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,committed by you because of your sin nature

No where in this passage is an infant referred to but suggest that 1) our nature it is to sin against God by birth like a scorpians nature is to sting and 2) the sins we actively engage in because of our nature or the actual number of strokes of the sting the adult scorpian makes.
Lets look at Ephesians 2:5

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Our sinful nature craves sin and thus acts of sin follow. Dead in this is not just because we act sins out but that our nature does not even permit us to perceive another alternative to sin. Therefore sin naturally follows.

An infant is guilty by birth due to Adam's sin. That child will never comprehend an alternative to sin once it is born unless the Holy Spirit intervienes. Therefore it is a given it will sin because it can't do anything else other than sin. But we are all held accountable for the sin we participate in. Dead is a statement about our nature. Living in since is a consequence of that nature and only being made live again can we see an alternative to sin.

 

[webdog]

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,- Or the Sin Nature which you were born into God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,committed by you because of your sin nature

You completely added to the passage something not there! That is eisegesis. If we were dead due to our sin nature, we still have them!
I agree it is in our nature to sin, and that upon maturity it is a given.

Our sinful nature craves sin and thus acts of sin follow. Dead in this is not just because we act sins out but that our nature does not even permit us to perceive another alternative to sin. Therefore sin naturally follows.

The first part you were spot on...then you went off course. We are dead due to OUR sins and transgressions, not our sin nature!

An infant being guilty by birth or being conceived is hogwash. IF this is the case, they can only be saved through faith, which also requires the mental faculty to exhibit. The only conclusion to your theology is the fact all aborted fetuses are burning in hell because something Adam did, not something they did. That is not justice in any way, shape or form.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You completely added to the passage something not there! That is eisegesis. If we were dead due to our sin nature, we still have them!
I agree it is in our nature to sin, and that upon maturity it is a given.
The first part you were spot on...then you went off course. We are dead due to OUR sins and transgressions, not our sin nature!

An infant being guilty by birth or being conceived is hogwash. IF this is the case, they can only be saved through faith, which also requires the mental faculty to exhibit. The only conclusion to your theology is the fact all aborted fetuses are burning in hell because something Adam did, not something they did. That is not justice in any way, shape or form.

First I put that red in their because you asked me

What do you do with passages like Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 2:5? How do you interpret those?

and so I showed you and yes, but you asked for that specifically. However, I see it as the plain reading of that verse.
We are as a race still born. We are born dead not alive. We sin because we are already dead which makes Adams sin so horrifing.
Its not Hogwash but seems to be indicated by scripture

IF this is the case, they can only be saved through faith, which also requires the mental faculty to exhibit

Ah but you can't have faith unless regeneration has begun (the basics of reformed theology ie total depravity). In other words God has to make you alive first in order for you to have faith so God makes you alive.

The only conclusion to your theology is the fact all aborted fetuses are burning in hell because something Adam did, not something they did.

Yes that is one conclusion which is why I brought it up, or like DHK was saying that since God Chose us to be saved that he will sort them out and not all aborted fetuses go to hell. Some are chosen for heaven but ultimately its up to God.

That is not justice in any way, shape or form

Who are you to tell God what is just. If I see a baby rat I kill it because I know what rats do. Whether that particular rat did anything is irrelevant. Its a rat.

See and this is the point of my questioning this aspect of the bible. It says nothing about the unborn or infants why?

 

[billwald]

>It fits logic, the epitome of what Scripture contains.

I've seen some amusing stuff on line but this might earn the gold medal for 2010.

If Scripture is logical then exactly what is the function of this forum?

 

[webdog]

>It fits logic, the epitome of what Scripture contains.

I've seen some amusing stuff on line but this might earn the gold medal for 2010.

If Scripture is logical then exactly what is the function of this forum?

To get people such as yourself to understand simple, unadulterated logic.