Son of God

[timtofly]

I have read John 1:1-3!

Here is what this post is supposed to be addressing:

Note how this poster cannot even acknowledge the "another thread" issue was whether of not Adam was created mortal. Nope is presents non-stop falsehood. Adam and every born anew believers are children or sons of God because God created them. Logos was not created.​

None of the three Persons of the Trinity were "created" as they are eternal in the divine sense, as with no beginning.

Jesus then always existed as the Lamb of God. He was never a begotten son.

"the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Revelation 13:8

 

[37818]

He was never a begotten son.

Acts of the Apostles 13:33, Romans 1:4.

 

[Van]

Jesus then always existed as the Lamb of God. He was never a begotten son.
"the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Revelation 13:8

Did I say Jesus always existed or Logos always existed? Logos! Please stop misrepresenting my views.
When did the Father choose Logos to be His Lamb of God? Before the foundation of the world, which I think means before creation. Does scripture mean Logos was always the Lamb of God? Nope, as scripture says He was chosen for that task. Luke 9:35, Luke 23:35.

Now this is off topic, but your quote from a translation of Revelation 13:8 is a mistranslation, Here is an accurate translation based on the grammar and Revelation 17:8 which ties the writing or not writing of names to since creation, and not before.

Rev 13:8
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

 

[timtofly]

Did I say Jesus always existed or Logos always existed? Logos! Please stop misrepresenting my views.
When did the Father choose Logos to be His Lamb of God? Before the foundation of the world, which I think means before creation. Does scripture mean Logos was always the Lamb of God? Nope, as scripture says He was chosen for that task. Luke 9:35, Luke 23:35.

Now this is off topic, but your quote from a translation of Revelation 13:8 is a mistranslation, Here is an accurate translation based on the grammar and Revelation 17:8 which ties the writing or not writing of names to since creation, and not before.

Rev 13:8
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

No, John set the precedent in chapter 13. Revelation 17:8 is still about the book. But the book was from the Lamb slain before the foundation, which resulted in the book. They both existed in that form before creation.

You claim the Logos always existed would mean the Logos died on the Cross, had the physical marks of the Cross and could appear as a man at any time. How does that take less belief as preincarnate than just saying Jesus always physically existed as the Lamb?

John stated in writing in the gospel prior to writing Revelation. Yet Revelation shows John as an eyewitness to way more knowledge than when he penned John the Gospel. Unless you think John wrote the Gospel after he wrote Revelation?

Is not your point Jesus as the Logos was sent from God?

 

[Van]

No, John set the precedent in chapter 13. Revelation 17:8 is still about the book. But the book was from the Lamb slain before the foundation, which resulted in the book. They both existed in that form before creation.

You claim the Logos always existed would mean the Logos died on the Cross, had the physical marks of the Cross and could appear as a man at any time. How does that take less belief as preincarnate than just saying Jesus always physically existed as the Lamb?

John stated in writing in the gospel prior to writing Revelation. Yet Revelation shows John as an eyewitness to way more knowledge than when he penned John the Gospel. Unless you think John wrote the Gospel after he wrote Revelation?

Is not your point Jesus as the Logos was sent from God?

Your view has been discredited in published notes. You can repeat your obvious bogus claims, but Revelation 17:8 clearly shows the idea was not Christ's death but when names were entered.

 

[timtofly]

Your view has been discredited in published notes. You can repeat your obvious bogus claims, but Revelation 17:8 clearly shows the idea was not Christ's death but when names were entered.

The majority of humanity reject the truth and call it how they see it. You do not have to accept how God's Word presents things clearly.

If you use Revelation 17:8 as your clear criteria, you are a Calvinist who allows only the elect to be written in the Lamb's book of life since before Creation.

The point that the Lamb was slain before creation places all the names of every conceived offspring of Adam as all were covered by the Atonement. The Lamb's book of life was God's vote of election to redeem every last one of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, including Adam and Eve themselves. The precedent was set in Revelation 13:8.

The Lamb's book of life is the list of all the restored sons of God. The 7 Seals are the opening of this book. Only after the book is unsealed will names be removed. The goats are the first names removed.

At what point does God stop knowing a person, if God is all knowing? Especially when it comes to redemption and the Atonement? It is when their name is removed from the Lamb's book of life. How can any one in history be born and live without God never knowing them? It is impossible. Yet once removed from the Lamb's book of life, that will be the point of truth, that God never knew them as one of the redeemed. And no one can claim redemption and then loose it. God would not forget He redeemed them. The only point one can loose God's redemption is to look God in the face and refuse His Atonement. Then God will remove His vote and one's name from the Lamb's book of life.

That would be the last chance to be a son of God.

 

[Van]

The majority of humanity reject the truth and call it how they see it. You do not have to accept how God's Word presents things clearly.

If you use Revelation 17:8 as your clear criteria, you are a Calvinist who allows only the elect to be written in the Lamb's book of life since before Creation.

The point that the Lamb was slain before creation places all the names of every conceived offspring of Adam as all were covered by the Atonement. The Lamb's book of life was God's vote of election to redeem every last one of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, including Adam and Eve themselves. The precedent was set in Revelation 13:8.

The Lamb's book of life is the list of all the restored sons of God. The 7 Seals are the opening of this book. Only after the book is unsealed will names be removed. The goats are the first names removed.

At what point does God stop knowing a person, if God is all knowing? Especially when it comes to redemption and the Atonement? It is when their name is removed from the Lamb's book of life. How can any one in history be born and live without God never knowing them? It is impossible. Yet once removed from the Lamb's book of life, that will be the point of truth, that God never knew them as one of the redeemed. And no one can claim redemption and then loose it. God would not forget He redeemed them. The only point one can loose God's redemption is to look God in the face and refuse His Atonement. Then God will remove His vote and one's name from the Lamb's book of life.

That would be the last chance to be a son of God.

Sir, please stop posting falsehood.

1) From the foundation of the world refers not to "before creation" but since creation, the period we are still this very day within!
2) The Lamb of God was slain since creation, about 2000 years ago.
3) Calvinists claim individual names were written in the Lamb's Book of life before creation. This is unbiblical false doctrine.
4) Jesus says I never knew you. So to claim Jesus was mistaken or lying seems unchristian.
5) Yes once saved always saved.
6) No one can lose "redemption" but they can fail to obtain it.
7) Jesus promised never to remove any name from His "Book of life!"

 

[Van]

Rev 13:8
All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been]written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.

 

[timtofly]

Sir, please stop posting falsehood.

1) From the foundation of the world refers not to "before creation" but since creation, the period we are still this very day within!
2) The Lamb of God was slain since creation, about 2000 years ago.
3) Calvinists claim individual names were written in the Lamb's Book of life before creation. This is unbiblical false doctrine.
4) Jesus says I never knew you. So to claim Jesus was mistaken or lying seems unchristian.
5) Yes once saved always saved.
6) No one can lose "redemption" but they can fail to obtain it.
7) Jesus promised never to remove any name from His "Book of life!"

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Foundation of the world indicates prior to Genesis 1:1. The Trinity was the Foundation of the world.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

The Lamb's book of life existed before existence. It has been sealed since Genesis 1:1. It has not been unsealed, yet.

Rev 13:8
All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been]written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.

This translation does not follow the Greek. It is an opinion of the Greek text.

In the Greek still a prepositionional phrase of Lamb having been slain from founding of world.

 

[Van]

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Foundation of the world indicates prior to Genesis 1:1. The Trinity was the Foundation of the world.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

The Lamb's book of life existed before existence. It has been sealed since Genesis 1:1. It has not been unsealed, yet.

This translation does not follow the Greek. It is an opinion of the Greek text.

In the Greek still a prepositionional phrase of Lamb having been slain from founding of world.

Dr. Dan Wallace teaches your view is hogwash. And for at least the second time, FROM the foundation refers to after or since creation, not before. Can you grasp that?

 

[37818]

Foundation of the world indicates prior to Genesis 1:1. The Trinity was the Foundation of the world.

No. The world, 1 John 5:19 as used throughout the New Testament.

 

[timtofly]

Dr. Dan Wallace teaches your view is hogwash. And for at least the second time, FROM the foundation refers to after or since creation, not before. Can you grasp that?

God exists outside of creation. Is before inside or outside of creation? If creation does not exist, where God does, a "point" outside of creation, cannot be eternal inside of creation itself. But I guess you found away for it to be one, not the other.

 

[timtofly]

No. The world, 1 John 5:19 as used throughout the New Testament.

If that is the case then the disciples existed before the world as well?

 

[37818]

If that is the case then the disciples existed before the world as well?

You are being irrational. The world being understood to refer to mankind.

 

[Van]

God exists outside of creation. Is before inside or outside of creation? If creation does not exist, where God does, a "point" outside of creation, cannot be eternal inside of creation itself. But I guess you found away for it to be one, not the other.

More unstudied nonsense! I have had it with "crystal ball theology" and "time travel theology!"
Entities in the spiritual realm are aware of the passage of time.

From the foundation of the world refers to after or since creation, not before. The fact you have not agreed to this reality says it all.

 

[timtofly]

You are being irrational. The world being understood to refer to mankind.

I thought your point was the world as known in the NT:

No. The world, 1 John 5:19 as used throughout the New Testament.

Did something drastic happen to make the world different then as opposed to a before the NT? Why make a point, if you are not going to use that point? I thought you were claiming the world was something different in the NT than the world created in Genesis 1:1.

Mankind existed on the 6th day. Is there a different mankind in the NT?

 

[timtofly]

More unstudied nonsense! I have had it with "crystal ball theology" and "time travel theology!"
Entities in the spiritual realm are aware of the passage of time.

From the foundation of the world refers to after or since creation, not before. The fact you have not agreed to this reality says it all.

If God understands time, then before creation is a time. If time does not matter outside of creation, then it was only a reality in God's mind. This is not time travel. Did the 3 persons of the Trinity exist before creation or at creation as part of creation? From the foundation is stating a fact, not defining reality. You don't think the Trinity existed outside of time. I am not being dogmatic either way. I don't even know if you accept the Trinity. All you do is attack my points. You never give an alternate point of view.

 

[Van]

If God understands time, then before creation is a time. If time does not matter outside of creation, then it was only a reality in God's mind. This is not time travel. Did the 3 persons of the Trinity exist before creation or at creation as part of creation? From the foundation is stating a fact, not defining reality. You don't think the Trinity existed outside of time. I am not being dogmatic either way. I don't even know if you accept the Trinity. All you do is attack my points. You never give an alternate point of view.

What nonsense!!!!
Why ask if the Trinity is eternal? That is simply an effort to throw up a dust cloud.
Did I say from the foundation of the world refers to after or since creation? Yes. Did you agree? Nope
Stop speculating on time travel. It is a fiction to re-order the sequence provided by scripture.
I provide the alternate point of view. From the foundation of the world refers to after or since Creation. Have you said yes or no? Nope.
BTW, a fact reflects reality, a non-fact is a fiction.

When were names not written and presumably written in the Lamb's book of Life? Scripture says after or since creation, not before. What is your claim? Crickets

 

[timtofly]

What nonsense!!!!
Why ask if the Trinity is eternal? That is simply an effort to throw up a dust cloud.
Did I say from the foundation of the world refers to after or since creation? Yes. Did you agree? Nope
Stop speculating on time travel. It is a fiction to re-order the sequence provided by scripture.
I provide the alternate point of view. From the foundation of the world refers to after or since Creation. Have you said yes or no? Nope.
BTW, a fact reflects reality, a non-fact is a fiction.

When were names not written and presumably written in the Lamb's book of Life? Scripture says after or since creation, not before. What is your claim? Crickets

My claim is there is one foundation.

I do not hold that every second of time is a single foundation. There was one foundation at the start.

Your point means every second is its own foundation. The Lamb's book of life was never sealed, but is constantly being edited by God for each second/foundation of reality.

My point was that it was already settled in eternity that all would be redeemed. At the end of Adam's 6,000 years of punishment it would be opened. Then names would be removed. Those individuals who would choose to reject God's Atonement.

 

[Van]

My claim is there is one foundation.

I do not hold that every second of time is a single foundation. There was one foundation at the start.

Your point means every second is its own foundation. The Lamb's book of life was never sealed, but is constantly being edited by God for each second/foundation of reality.

My point was that it was already settled in eternity that all would be redeemed. At the end of Adam's 6,000 years of punishment it would be opened. Then names would be removed. Those individuals who would choose to reject God's Atonement.

Still no answer!!
Still rewriting what I say, to claim what I did not say.
Did you say when scripture indicates names were entered in the Lamb's book of Life? Nope, you said "edited" which could mean anything on either side of the issue.
How was it "settled" if the names were not entered before creation? No answer will be forthcoming. Just more evasion in support of fiction.
BTW, Jesus promised to NEVER remove any names from His Book of Life.