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Sorrow to Repentance
- Thread starter Brother Bob
- Start date
Stop taking Scripture out of context.Amy.G said:
No where in the Bible does it say that sorrow leads to eternal salvation.
No where in the Bible does it say that sorrow saves, which is what you are implying.
The sorrow in 2Cor.7 is Godly sorrow which is impossible for an ungodly person to have. Why do you continue to take Scripture out of context?
I guess we just have a different interpretation of it.DHK said:
2Cr 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to {the will} {of} God produces a repentance without regret, {leading} to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
When Paul compares it to worldly sorrow which produces death, I assume the Godly sorrow/repentace he is speaking of is referring to eternal life.
It seems plain to me. Maybe I'm just doing a poor job of explaining myself.
Brother Bob
New Member
Where in the Bible does it say the world can't be sorrow they sinned.
I will speak for myself without fear of contradiction. I became sorrow that I had sinned against God. I sought repentance and forgiveness with tears and suffering. God then laid His hand upon me and gave me eternal Salvation.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
Departing from evil is understanding.
I have never met no one that said they were not sorry for their sins when they were seeking forgiveness. I would not be surprised though if some don't come to your rescue for I have been surprised before.
I am sitting here trying to figure you out DHK; you almost sound like you resent having to be sorry for your sins, when that should come as a given.
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You can stand on your head and recite the Lord's prayer before you ask Christ into your heart too. But that doesn't make it Biblical. Just because you had the experience doesn't make it Biblical. Experience is not our standard. (It is the standard of the Charismatics in most cases). But our standard is the Bible. It is the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. And no where in the Bible do we find that sorrow is necessary for salvation.Brother Bob said:
Brother Bob
New Member
Oh, but it is scripture, even John Wesley agrees with me. You know the more I am on here the more I see how much I am like John Wesley in belief. He believed in a Christian being a "good" person also.
Psa 38:18For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
2Cr 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
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Brother Bob
New Member
If you become sorrow that you sinned against God, that is a Godly sorrow. leads to repentance and to Salvation.
If you become sorrow because you don't have more of the world, or you don't have your neighbor's wife, that is a worldly sorrow. Leads to death.
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Your argumentation is based on experience and Scripture taken out of context. I thought you could do better than that Bob.Brother Bob said:
What saith the Scripture.
What leads an unsaved person to repentance?
Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
1. The riches of his goodness
2, His forbearance.
3. His longsuffering, and especially
4. the goodness of God
--These are the things that leads an unsaved person to repentance--not sorrow. This what the Bible teaches. One can sorrow all he wants, but sorrow does not produce repentance in an unsaved man. Sorrow does not save. The Bible does not teach that. It doesn't even lead an unsaved person to repentance. But the goodness of God does. This is what the Bible says.
Concerning a saved individual and one particular sin that needs to be dealt with in order to restore fellowship between man and God, and also between man and his fellow man; then Godly sorrow leads to repentance. That is the only time when sorrow leads to repentance. The passage in 2Cor.7 is applicable to believers only. Don't take it out of its context and try to apply it to the unsaved. It can't be done.
Brother Bob
New Member
Having all of the above and you still are not sorry you sinned against Him. Something wrong.
This is the poorest excuse you made yet DHK:
Its says "2Cr 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation , No where does it say restoration."
I have the exact same doctrine that John Wesley had on the subject. So, I think I am in pretty good company.
Here is what John Wesley had to say about 2 Corth 7:9
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/wesley/serm-027.stm
Sermon 27 (text from the 1872 edition)
Upon Our Lord's Sermon on The Mount, VII
by John Wesley
5. But let us take care to afflict our souls as well as our bodies. Let every season, either of public or private fasting, be a season of exercising all those holy affections which are implied in a broken and contrite heart. Let it be a season of devout mourning, of godly sorrow for sin; such a sorrow as that of the Corinthians, concerning which the Apostle saith, "I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance. For ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow" -- hE kata Theon lypE, -- the sorrow which is according to God, which is a precious gift of his Spirit, lifting the soul to God from whom it flows -- "worketh repentance to salvation, not to be repented of." Yea, and let our sorrowing after a godly sort work in us the same inward and outward repentance; the same entire change of heart, renewed after the image of God, in righteousness and true holiness; and the same change of life, till we are holy as He is holy, in all manner of conversation. Let it work in us the same carefulness to be found in him, without spot and blameless; the same clearing of ourselves, by our lives rather than words, by our abstaining from all appearance of evil; the same indignation, vehement abhorrence of every sin; the same fear of our own deceitful hearts; the same desire to be in all things conformed to the holy and acceptable will of God; the same zeal for whatever may be a means of his glory, and of our growth in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ; and the same revenge against Satan and all his works, against allfilthiness both of flesh and Spirit. (2 Cor. 7:9, &c.)
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convicted1
Guest
Read Luke 15:11-24
The "Prodical son" became sorry for what he did to his Father while he was feeding the swine. He said to himself that he will go to his Father and tell Him, Father, I have sinned against Heaven and in thy sight, and am no longer worthy to be called thy son. But take me as one of Thine hired servants. When the Father saw him afar off, He ran and fell on him, and kissed him. The Prodical son told Him what he said he would say, and the Father put the BEST ROBE upon him, and put the ring in his hand. He also put shoes on his feet. He also killed the fatted calf, and they made merry, because His son came back home.
If the Prodical son hadn't been sorry, he wouldn't have came back. If he thought he hadn't done wrong and wanted to come back, I believe he would have came back like nothing had ever happened. But he knew he had sinned against Hm, and asked Him for His forgiveness, IMHO.
The "Prodical son" became sorry for what he did to his Father while he was feeding the swine. He said to himself that he will go to his Father and tell Him, Father, I have sinned against Heaven and in thy sight, and am no longer worthy to be called thy son. But take me as one of Thine hired servants. When the Father saw him afar off, He ran and fell on him, and kissed him. The Prodical son told Him what he said he would say, and the Father put the BEST ROBE upon him, and put the ring in his hand. He also put shoes on his feet. He also killed the fatted calf, and they made merry, because His son came back home.
If the Prodical son hadn't been sorry, he wouldn't have came back. If he thought he hadn't done wrong and wanted to come back, I believe he would have came back like nothing had ever happened. But he knew he had sinned against Hm, and asked Him for His forgiveness, IMHO.
Not so.convicted1 said:
Luke 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
--When he came to himself (his senses), he said...I will arise, go to my father.
The repenance came when the realization came that he had done wrong. There was no sorrow for sin at this point, only a realization that he had wronged his father, and that his father had all that he needed.
Sorrow does not lead to repentance; the goodness of God does.
Sorrow does not save; faith in Christ does.
DHK said:
I'm having trouble understanding what it is you disagree about. I agree 100% that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. I still don't see how you can separate repentance from sorrow.
I don't see the point, however, in trying to guess whether it is the goodness of God that promotes sorrow, which leads to repentance, or if it's the goodness of God that leads to repentance, which simply has sorrow attached to it by nature, or whatever. Who cares? It works.
That is the whole point of the other thread I started on repentance.npetreley said:
What is repentance. Most people have this misconception that repentance is feeling sorry for one's sins. It does not. That has nothing to do with repentance whatsoever.
Repetance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.
It is a change of direction.
it is a change of attitude from a lifestyle of sin, and unto or toward submission to God.
That is what repentance is. It has nothing to do with sorrow. Not when it comes to salvation. One needs to the realization that they are guilty sinners before God, deserving only of the wrath of God. Their only hope is in Jesus Christ and His shed blood. If they don't trust in him they are doomed for all eternity. He is their only hope. They need to trust in him.
Their need is to trust Christ; their need is not sorrow.
Sorrow does not work. Some people are emotional and some are not. Emotions are extra. They are like a caboose at the end of a train. The train can function fully without the caboose. Sorrow is not necessary for salvation. Faith in Christ is.
We need to get past the mindset: "Whatever works is good enough." Is that Biblical? Isn't the Bible our final authority?
When ever someone begins their thought regarding spiritual phenomenon with "you must feel" or "you should feel" or anything regarding emotions...right then and there I great big red flag comes up to warn me we are headed in the wrong direction.
Just as is described, emotions are subordinate to thought, or should be. It is by means of mental activity genuine decision making occurs. Emotions may or may not occur but thinking MUST occur when making decisions.
I suspect that when people say you should feel sorry for your sins, they have been introduced to a very indiscriminate way of thinking regarding the necessary distinction between thought and emotion. Of course it does help that in our pulpits we have many Pastors who are ignorant about this as well and communicate such crude and haphazard concepts.
While the specific mental response of understanding one is a sinner and their life of unrighteousness is unacceptable to God for salvation and that they are in need of a Savior MAY produce some emotional response in some people, to categorically expect this in everyone is of course the quintessential in arrogance. That is to demand others feel as you do.
The Bible makes no such demand, but what it does demand is that all people believe on Christ to be saved. Repentance then is the understanding that their life of sin, their condition of unrighteousness is unacceptable. You can cry crocodile tears but until you make the mental acknowledgment that your unrighteousness is unacceptable to God, you are destined for eternal damnation.
Many people are genuinely sorry for their sins but they certainly refuse to repent of their unrighteousness. But the person that acknowledges their state of unrighteousness before God, tears or no tears, is the genuinely repentant person.
It is so unfortunate and so damaging within the church that not only with salvation but with SPIRITUAL activity after salvation, EMOTIONALISM or FEELINGS are constantly communicated as some indicator or measure of spiritual reality or experience.
All people have emotions, emotions are for all humanity. But that which is Spiritual is for God's children and it is NOT emotionally based. Emotions may be there or may not be there but they are NEVER a means or measure of spiritual activity.
Just as is described, emotions are subordinate to thought, or should be. It is by means of mental activity genuine decision making occurs. Emotions may or may not occur but thinking MUST occur when making decisions.
I suspect that when people say you should feel sorry for your sins, they have been introduced to a very indiscriminate way of thinking regarding the necessary distinction between thought and emotion. Of course it does help that in our pulpits we have many Pastors who are ignorant about this as well and communicate such crude and haphazard concepts.
While the specific mental response of understanding one is a sinner and their life of unrighteousness is unacceptable to God for salvation and that they are in need of a Savior MAY produce some emotional response in some people, to categorically expect this in everyone is of course the quintessential in arrogance. That is to demand others feel as you do.
The Bible makes no such demand, but what it does demand is that all people believe on Christ to be saved. Repentance then is the understanding that their life of sin, their condition of unrighteousness is unacceptable. You can cry crocodile tears but until you make the mental acknowledgment that your unrighteousness is unacceptable to God, you are destined for eternal damnation.
Many people are genuinely sorry for their sins but they certainly refuse to repent of their unrighteousness. But the person that acknowledges their state of unrighteousness before God, tears or no tears, is the genuinely repentant person.
It is so unfortunate and so damaging within the church that not only with salvation but with SPIRITUAL activity after salvation, EMOTIONALISM or FEELINGS are constantly communicated as some indicator or measure of spiritual reality or experience.
All people have emotions, emotions are for all humanity. But that which is Spiritual is for God's children and it is NOT emotionally based. Emotions may be there or may not be there but they are NEVER a means or measure of spiritual activity.
DHK said:
I can't speak for Bro Bob but I don't read his OP in the way you describe. I read that he believed in God and knew that his past and present situaion was less than it should be so he repented until he saw change which he took as forgiveness for his past and a commitment to his future. If he believed enough in God to repent continually for 3 years then I believe he met the criteria you listed for 2Cor.7:9. He was a saved man who believed unto salvation and repented also. The only argument here is at what point was he saved???
I agree one does not repent to be saved but the Bible makes it plain (as Amy said) that a saved man will repent.
The theif on the cross (I know someone will mention him)
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
He knew what he had done and was willing to pay the price for his actions.
As npetreley said, often an unrighteous man can't/won't see their sin or doesn't realize or care that the life they live is in transgression to God. It takes one who Loves/fears the Lord and cares about transgressing to realize their actions (past and present) need to be repented and corrected for future relations or you would be guilty of continually crucifying Christ (Heb 6:6). That is what is meant by Godly sorrow, how can one come into the grace and knowledge of such an awesome and merciful God and not feel the want to repent or continue to live a life of sin while desiring to be a child of God. Desiring to be an imputed receiver of the saviours righteousness.
Such a person would be at war with himself and the truth would eventually come to light. Someone asked the question how can a man appear saved for 10 years then suddenly appear to have lost his salvation. The answer, he lost this war and that which was in darkness came to light. That is why I conclude he was never saved to begin with because once a man has fully committed to the gospel plow he will not look back.